Missed build commitments

[Graham Bowers]

I've been dipping in to the build blogs and it seems many dates just slip away as builders run late.

Has anybody tried project management methods with commitments for milstones, and penalty clauses for late delivery in the contract?

Cheers

Graham

[Pirate]

Huh, a good idea in theory,

 

However I have come to the conclusion that being late is deliberate normal practice, boat builders know what they are doing,

 

If they tell you it will take so long to complete, you would perhaps go elsewhere.

 

When they get the order they will be doing other boats at the same time, with a push to get each one to a payment stage.

 

Well thats the way it looks to me anyway

[Cafnod]

I've been dipping in to the build blogs and it seems many dates just slip away as builders run late.

Has anybody tried project management methods with commitments for milstones, and penalty clauses for late delivery in the contract?

Cheers

Graham

 

 

Most people count themselves lucky ifthe company stays solvent long enough to complete their boat.

[charles123]

I dont think it would work, builders dont have control of the timescales for many reasons, and delays can occur for reasons outside their control. They will not put their profit at risk therefore will not agree to any late penalties. As for project managing them there is something in this, I would suggest working closely with a builder and visit regularly to check progress and see for yourself that they are up to the point they said they would be. You need to have an understanding of practical matters and I doubt most customers would have sufficient understanding to be able to do this. Nor should customers be afraid in challenging their builder if they are not happy with progress.

 

The other tip I would give is build in your own personal time contingency, in other words order the boat before you need it and expect a delay therefore you would likely get in when you wanted it in the first place. Naturally dont tell the builder this

 

Charles

[tomsk]

Most people count themselves lucky ifthe company stays solvent long enough to complete their boat.

 

I feel Graham is on the right track..., I work for a building surveying practice and one of the services we offer is as 'Employers Agents', basically tendering building works, drafting 'Employers Requirments', making payment recomendations and applying 'Liquidated and Ascertained Damages' (L.A.D's) to late running projects on the Clients behalf.

 

I cannot see why these principles cannot be applied to a boat building contract, so long as the goalposts are made clear at Contract sign-up, and there is a modicum of honesty from both Client regarding expectations and Contractor regarding timescales.

 

If the Contractor is straightforward regarding timescales and doesn't make rash promises a (Client common sense should flag up any 'silly' promises) and any staged payments are strictly adhered to (possibly with a clause offering a small 'bonus' payment for early completion to balance the LADs applied for contract overrun).

 

Any established contractor will be able and willing to provide references (possibly banking and certainly from previous Clients), any nonsense arising from a polite request for these two items at an early stage should set alarm bells ringing and the prospective Client running to find a more transparent Contractor/builder.

[Graham Bowers]

Huh, a good idea in theory,

 

However I have come to the conclusion that being late is deliberate normal practice, boat builders know what they are doing,

 

If they tell you it will take so long to complete, you would perhaps go elsewhere.

 

When they get the order they will be doing other boats at the same time, with a push to get each one to a payment stage.

 

Well thats the way it looks to me anyway

[Graham Bowers]

I dont think it would work, builders dont have control of the timescales for many reasons, and delays can occur for reasons outside their control. They will not put their profit at risk therefore will not agree to any late penalties. As for project managing them there is something in this, I would suggest working closely with a builder and visit regularly to check progress and see for yourself that they are up to the point they said they would be. You need to have an understanding of practical matters and I doubt most customers would have sufficient understanding to be able to do this. Nor should customers be afraid in challenging their builder if they are not happy with progress.

 

The other tip I would give is build in your own personal time contingency, in other words order the boat before you need it and expect a delay therefore you would likely get in when you wanted it in the first place. Naturally dont tell the builder this

 

Charles

I accept that problems happen and that some are outside the builders direct control, but if their paying customers just put up with it then there is no incentive for the builder to actively manage the project. As regards things outside the builders contol, I guess some things truly are, but I'd gamble that "outside our control" is sometimes used as an excuse. I also accept that to keep a grip on things, some knowledge of the processes is a requirement.

 

My interest is I am thinking (just thinking, mind) of changing to a NB in the 3 year timeframe and I'm juggling ideas.

 

I do have experience of managing projects in my day job and have heard all of the possible excuses why project management can't work and I maintain that is a smoke screen so that the hard thinking to make solid commitments can be conveniently avoided.

 

My current thoughts are either a shell or sailaway and DIY btw.

 

Cheers

Graham

PS sorry about the "null" post with a quote. Admin, pls feel free to delete :-))

[tomsk]

At the end of the day, besides the sun going down, you are not being blackmailed into having your boat built. It is your dream, your choice and any decisions are down to you. If you let a builder take control of the build and dictate terms to you, you have lost control from the off. Its your hard earned so be wise, keep your eyes open and trust in no-one (excepting your own instincts) until you have seen results. A contract is a contract, you are paying the bills, the builder is not doing you a favour by fabricating your boat, that is his business, he knows how to work his side of the contract....Remain in control at all times and get any contract 'legaled' (especially if it is in form suggested by the builder) by a competent professional.

[NB Willawaw]

Being optimistic, there is certainly no harm in trying this with boatbuilders.

It is the norm in larger projects (ship-building).

However, the UK boatbuilding industry (excluding the high volume production boat companies like Princess, Fairline, etc) is rather, how do we say politely, casual and laid back.

 

The acid test is whether any narrowboat builder would accept a purchase contract which included milestones and late delivery penalties. If you talked about performance bonds, they probably wouldn't know what you were talking about.

 

If they declined your offer, they would lose the order for one boat. That in itself wouldn't kill them.

 

The best way would be for a few of you to get together, buy several boats from one builder and between you employ a project manager with this style of contract.

Then with the extra negotiating power, you might get somewhere.

 

You only have to try to get some work done on your boat in the inland waterways industry, to see what you are up against. Its still very much a sellers market, if you want someone who knows what he is doing.

[nichimyo]

Just as an observation, where I work we are having a big electrical project going on. There is an agreed finish date, with penalties for late finishing.

A crucial piece of equipent which was needed in the second week of the project wasn't ready, so rather than delaying the work, the contractors (a ) worked round the problem, doing things in a different order and doing all the prep work they possibly could and (b ) when the part is available, they will be putting 7 men on the work instead of the original 3 to get finished in time.

The delay to supplying the part was "out of their control" and was down to the only supplier in the country of that particular item not delivering when they were supposed to.

Our project will still finish on time.

 

Don't see why boat builders and fitters can't be just as professional in their approach.

[Guest Grant]

I asked about late delivery penalty clauses at a couple of builders and got laughed at. One flatly refused to consider it, the other gave the excuse of no control of steelwork deliveries etc. In the end I went with the one who I trusted most and got it 8 weeks late.....

[anhar]

I asked about late delivery penalty clauses at a couple of builders and got laughed at. One flatly refused to consider it, the other gave the excuse of no control of steelwork deliveries etc. In the end I went with the one who I trusted most and got it 8 weeks late.....

Hello Grant

 

Canal boatbuilding is always run by small businesses. That being the case it is near certain that no boatbuilder will ever agree to a penalty clause for late delivery. It's risky and difficult enough for them to turn a decent profit on their existing prices and costings, let alone run the additional risk of a penalty clause which produces no additional return for them.

 

Penalty clauses are usually incorporated in the contracts for much larger scale construction projects but they are not the norm in small project type businesses whether it's boats or small builders etc. It's just too risky for them.

 

regards

Steve

Edited August 2, 2006 by anhar

[elessina]

I've been dipping in to the build blogs and it seems many dates just slip away as builders run late.

Has anybody tried project management methods with commitments for milstones, and penalty clauses for late delivery in the contract?

Cheers

Graham

 

My experience is that most narrowboat builders are cottage industry, often employing just a handful of people. A decent 'Project manager' will want a salary of £30k, spread this over the few boats they make in a year and you can see very quickly that it makes no economic sense.

 

Afraid you will have to live with a delay, but is it a real problem, just add a few weeks to their delivery date!!!. If they say June, think August and it will be on time!!.

 

When you analyse it though, it is not in any boatbuilders interest to delay delivery date, as all have limited build slots / bays, so a late delivery means that bay is used, so they can not start on the next one, and where they maybe originally planned to build 12 boats per year, quickly find they only build 11, with associated less yearly income…… but in many cases the buyer must also take some responsibility for the delay, because likely there will be a few extras they ask the builder to do (we certainly did), and / or there are some choices down to the buyer (window sizes / position of equipment etc.) which the builder needs to know before ordering materials.

 

Ian

DB Elessina

[nichimyo]

My experience is that most narrowboat builders are cottage industry, often employing just a handful of people. A decent 'Project manager' will want a salary of £30k, spread this over the few boats they make in a year and you can see very quickly that it makes no economic sense.

 

Ian

DB Elessina

 

But you could perhaps do the project management yourself, sitting down with the builder/fitter and asking how long each stage should take, then checking each week/fortnight how they are doing, and find out if they are behind and why. I would have thought the closer you keep an eye on them, the less likely you are to get fobbed off with excuses.