River Sarthe, France.

[Albion]

Neil - wondering if you could expand on this - we have semi seriously talked and thought about taking the Dog Hose to France in years to come, probably when we get bored with the UK system and definitely not till Jan finishes work too.

 

At 60ft (18.2m) she would be under this limit but what are the issues likely to be for boats over this? and is it something that might eventually impact on shorter boats like ours.

 

Many thanks.

 

Martin,

Take a look at my mate's web site particularly this page:

http://users.skynet.be/sky34301/triwv.html

It gives a lot of detailed and accurate info.

 

There is also something strange that occurs between 20m and 24m (seems to be an overlap in the regs) but I can't for the life of me remember what it is and whether it applies to the boat or the qualification to steer one sur la continent. In case you are thinking of going on the Rhine in Germany there are some requirements for boats over 15m (I think) that are enforced by the German water police which are a national requirement rather than an EU wide one.

 

I don't think there are any planned introductions of regs to shorter boats but you never know with the EU. There are revisions to the RCD regs being negotiated now but may not become law in less than 1 - 2 years.

Roger

[Doorman]

 

 

River Sarthe

 

 

There seemed to be a floral display competition going on with the lockies...I think this one won!

 

Lovely photograph. Reminds me of the Ashton canal..!

[Neil TNC]

Neil - wondering if you could expand on this - we have semi seriously talked and thought about taking the Dog Hose to France in years to come, probably when we get bored with the UK system and definitely not till Jan finishes work too.

 

At 60ft (18.2m) she would be under this limit but what are the issues likely to be for boats over this? and is it something that might eventually impact on shorter boats like ours.

 

Many thanks.

 

As the official spokesman says, you start to get real grief over 20m - TRIWV and the French being funny about your ICC, which should be vaild in the EU, up to 24m craft.

Personally I have kept my new barge to a shade under 15m and yet incorporated most stuff (full height bulkhead to front locker and engine room) in the steelwork which would satisfy the TRIWV regs.

Jim Mc Donald has travelled just about everywhere in France/Belgium/Netherlands in his ancient NB Elizabeth (62ft), He was going to go back in his little tug, but has decided to take Elizabeth back. He is of the school of thought, that if you are very familair with your NB, you should be OK in France. The times of cheap boating in France are over, unless you want to restrict yourself to the Somme, or the isolated Brittany system.

 

As ever, for narrowboaters getting wanderlust, how about trying Ireland first?...as continuous cruisers you could polish the whole lot of in a year or two...but most Brits tend to stay longer

[Neil TNC]

Lovely photograph. Reminds me of the Ashton canal..!

 

Always use bollards flower pots in French locks?

We were very impressed with the Sarthe, the waterside towns/villages seemed vibrant, with many bars and restaurants about, unlike some other French waterways.

Even Le Mans is nice in the old centre.

You were even (shock horror drama!) allowed to do the manual locks by yourselves, if locky not about. They don't believe in VHF on the Sarthe...just a BIG horn!

I am looking forward to doing the Mayenne early this summer, as it is meant to be a bit smaller scale, up the top.

[bargemast]

Aren't they (spits (sp) and peniche) the same, Freycinet-sized barges, just a language thing so it'll depend what part of Belgium they're from?

 

Tim

 

 

You are right, "spits" is the dutch or flamish name for what the french speaking call "péniche", a real bargee will not say péniche to name his barge but will say: "J'ai un 38m, or j'ai un freycinet." as the term péniche was really for the wooden version, but nowdays lots of people call everything that floats péniche, while they should say bateau. Even if the right word is not used, they not going to put the person that used it in jail, so no worries.

 

Peter.

[Albion]

You are right, "spits" is the dutch or flamish name for what the french speaking call "péniche", a real bargee will not say péniche to name his barge but will say: "J'ai un 38m, or j'ai un freycinet." as the term péniche was really for the wooden version, but nowdays lots of people call everything that floats péniche, while they should say bateau. Even if the right word is not used, they not going to put the person that used it in jail, so no worries.

 

Peter.

Hi Peter,

We heard the French lock keepers sometimes using 'Penichette' to refer to us smaller Dutch barge 'style' boats. Is that purely to identify that we are a small pleasure boat as opposed to large pleasure boat as opposed to working barge?

Roger

[Tam & Di]

Hi Peter,

We heard the French lock keepers sometimes using 'Penichette' to refer to us smaller Dutch barge 'style' boats. Is that purely to identify that we are a small pleasure boat as opposed to large pleasure boat as opposed to working barge?

Roger

 

French-built canal pleasure craft are on the whole about as ugly and unhandy as you can get. However there is a style of grp boat built from the '80s on, originally (I think) for the Locoboat Plaisance hire fleet, and which are very roughly barge shaped and do handle very well. These were named Penichettes, and lock keepers do often now use it as a generic term for small barges, as you say.

 

The batelliers (or 'mariniers', in the north) refer to their craft as automoteurs, or as Peter noted a "trente huit" (38). When we call them up, to ask if it's OK to pass perhaps, we will often call them as "chargé" or "vide", i.e. loaded or empty craft - not that you are ever likely to get past a vide!

Edited January 30, 2011 by Tam & Di

[Timleech]

French-built canal pleasure craft are on the whole about as ugly and unhandy as you can get. However there is a style of grp boat built from the '80s on, originally (I think) for the Locoboat Plaisance hire fleet, and which are very roughly barge shaped and do handle very well. These were named Penichettes, and lock keepers do often now use it as a generic term for small barges, as you say.

 

 

I remember when we were just leaving a lock on the Marne with the Beecliffe, a young child out for a towpath walk with her mother spotted us and ran to try to follow us excitedly pointing and shouting 'petite peniche, petite peniche!

I suppose at that time we were a bit of a novel sight, half the length of a Freycinet barge but similar width and depth, and there weren't many small barges in use as pleasure boats in France at that time (mid- 1970s).

 

Tim

[Albion]

French-built canal pleasure craft are on the whole about as ugly and unhandy as you can get. However there is a style of grp boat built from the '80s on, originally (I think) for the Locoboat Plaisance hire fleet, and which are very roughly barge shaped and do handle very well. These were named Penichettes, and lock keepers do often now use it as a generic term for small barges, as you say.

 

The batelliers (or 'mariniers', in the north) refer to their craft as automoteurs, or as Peter noted a "trente huit" (38). When we call them up, to ask if it's OK to pass perhaps, we will often call them as "chargé" or "vide", i.e. loaded or empty craft - not that you are ever likely to get past a vide!

 

Thanks Tam. That's interesting then because where we are based, on the Nivernais, there are lots of Locaboats around and 'Locaboat' is what we call them. However, I have heard them referred to by the French as Penichette and (spurred by your comment) I've just looked at their web-site and it is headed 'Boating Holidays on a Pénichette'. I always thought it was a generic small barge term but now I see that it is a bit like calling a vacuum cleaner a 'Hoover'.

 

I like your last sentence though because, from our brief experience on the Seine I don't think I would get past them chargé or vide. Boy, do they crack on. Makes our measly 90hp look very puny.

Roger

[Tam & Di]

As the official spokesman says, you start to get real grief over 20m - TRIWV and the French being funny about your ICC, which should be vaild in the EU, up to 24m craft.

Personally I have kept my new barge to a shade under 15m and yet incorporated most stuff (full height bulkhead to front locker and engine room) in the steelwork which would satisfy the TRIWV regs.

Jim Mc Donald has travelled just about everywhere in France/Belgium/Netherlands in his ancient NB Elizabeth (62ft), He was going to go back in his little tug, but has decided to take Elizabeth back. He is of the school of thought, that if you are very familair with your NB, you should be OK in France. The times of cheap boating in France are over, unless you want to restrict yourself to the Somme, or the isolated Brittany system.

 

I don't think there are any plans to extend TRIWV to craft under 20m. When they came into being people were wetting their knickers over them, but the reality is that by and large they are sensible standards for a craft cruising continental watereways. The people most threatened are those who have little prior boating experience and who have perhaps bought a pretty little tjalk on their retirement which has served as a houseboat for many years and had all its bulkheads removed, its wiring a tangled mess of bodged handiwork, engine and fuel tanks a serious fire hazard - I could go on. I don't believe in over-regulation but it is difficult to argue against some minimal safety standards. Simplistically the UK BSS is concerned with the safety of the person in his boat, whereas the TRIWV is more concerned with making sure a vessel is a safe navigable entity - that the hull, engine, pumps, VHF etc are adequate for their purpose and in good working order. Groups such as the DBA have managed to get pleasurecraft exempted from most of the really stringent rules applicable to commercial vessels, though some do remain and are still under discussion.

 

Jim wrote extensively about his continental cruising for the NBOC if I recall, and although he starts out saying how great it is and how much narrow boat owners would enjoy the experience, he does then go on to detail pretty well all the potential hazards that I list myself. He is also extremely well-travelled in his boat over a great many years, which is a very different matter to several postings on the topic I've seen on here.

 

It is of note too that Falcon is held in the lock just loosely with the line in his hand - certainly not a technique you can use on the larger commercial waterways, and even the smaller Freycinet locks often fill at such a speed you would lose control of the boat if you did not take a turn with the line.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Tam & Di

[Neil TNC]

It is of note too that Falcon is held in the lock just loosely with the line in his hand - certainly not a technique you can use on the larger commercial waterways, and even the smaller Freycinet locks often fill at such a speed you would lose control of the boat if you did not take a turn with the line.

 

I too was amazed at the way you have to work the Sarthe locks. You cannot use your own ropes and have to rely on the dangling twine. The floral displays are a telling sign. David has been over in France since 1991, so is rather well travelled and does work his NB the barge way, when allowed.

[Tam & Di]

I like your last sentence though because, from our brief experience on the Seine I don't think I would get past them chargé or vide. Boy, do they crack on. Makes our measly 90hp look very puny.

Roger

 

 

We've got a 6LW Gardner governed down to about 80HP (but these are Gardner horses, of course). We're very heavy - about 80dwt - and can't do more than about 12 kph on deep rivers or 8kph on a Freycinet canal. You're right, you don't often get to overtake even a chargé trente huit when he's out in deep water. On a Freycinet canal though it can be very painful sticking at 3-4kph behind one, catching up with him at each lock and waiting, with nowhere to tie to ... He's never going to let you by if he is within a couple of kilometers of the next lock, and quite reasonably so, but if we catch one before that we will generally call him up and pass. As a loaded boat has virtually no water under him or beside him in an empty lock he is very slow compared to us. We do know quite a few mariniers at least by sight now, and they are getting to know we don't bugger about and hold them up.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Tam & Di

[bargemast]

Pénichette is often used if speaking about small size barges, but as Tam said already they are the Locaboat boats that look a bit like little Tjalk barges.

 

"Pénichette" is a registred trade-mark that belongs to Locaboat.

 

 

 

Another reason why many bargees are not keen to let pleasure boaters get passed them is that they will often lose some valuable time for them (unless the next lock is far away), as a lot of pleasure boater are very slow getting in and out of the locks, and often need a long time to tie-up in the locks, and then take a lot of time before they lift the blue bar (in automatic locks), and what they dislike most is that those pleasure boaters that were so much in a hurry tie up 30 mins later.

 

If you listen to the VHF to know that everything (bargewise) is clear and you know that you are not going to slow the barge ahead of you down, it's not difficult to talk to them and ask if you could pass them, if they don't have to run aground to let you go by they normally will let you, as long as you are polite and say thank you very much. Never forget that they are there trying to make a living.

 

Peter.

Edited January 30, 2011 by bargemast

[Tam & Di]

Another reason why many bargees are not keen to let pleasure boaters get passed them is that they will often lose some valuable time for them (unless the next lock is far away), as a lot of pleasure boater are very slow getting in and out of the locks, and often need a long time to tie-up in the locks, and then take a lot of time before they lift the blue bar (in automatic locks), and what they dislike most is that those pleasure boaters that were so much in a hurry tie up 30 mins later.

 

If you listen to the VHF to know that everything (bargewise) is clear and you know that you are not going to slow the barge ahead of you down, it's not difficult to talk to them and ask if you could pass them, if they don't have to run aground to let you go by they normally will let you, as long as you are polite and say thank you very much. Never forget that they are there trying to make a living.

 

Peter.

 

I could not agree more. The CEVNI rules distinguish between large ("normal") vessels of 20m and over, and small craft under 20m, but make no distinction by function. They say a small craft must always give way to a normal vessel, and other than that it is first come first served at a lock. The rules do not use the concepts of pleasureboat and commercial one. However we always stress to our trainees, many of whom may fetch up with a boat of 20m+, that unless they are certain that they are efficient and will not hold a commercial up they should always give him precedence.

 

Roy and Carole, British commercials boaters with Pedro, worked on the principal that they would let a cruiser by insofar as possible, but if he stopped for lunch or they passed him while he was still in bed next morning they would not give him a second chance. Certainly a chargé moves so much water you would never get by without his co-operation.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Tam & Di

[mykaskin]

Ray Mears' Northern Wilderness has been talking about chargé just now, in particular demi-chargé for moving canoes through rapids. Coincidence, non?

 

Mike

[Albion]

I could not agree more. The CEVNI rules distinguish between large ("normal") vessels of 20m and over, and small craft under 20m, but make no distinction by function. They say a small craft must always give way to a normal vessel, and other than that it is first come first served at a lock. The rules do not use the concepts of pleasureboat and commercial one. However we always stress to our trainees, many of whom may fetch up with a boat of 20m+, that unless they are certain that they are efficient and will not hold a commercial up they should always give him precedence.

 

Roy and Carole, British commercials boaters with Pedro, worked on the principal that they would let a cruiser by insofar as possible, but if he stopped for lunch or they passed him while he was still in bed next morning they would not give him a second chance. Certainly a chargé moves so much water you would never get by without his co-operation.

 

We always give working craft priority to be honest. We're there enjoying ourselves and they're there trying to earn a living. It's no contest in my opinion. Some hotel barges on the Nivernais (the bit that is deep enough for them to still trade ) have a reputation for trying to get priority at locks claiming that they are working craft but, in fairness, this has never happened to us. In fact, the hotel captains that we have met have been, in the main, very courteous and, because they know that they will be very, very slow on that canal, they will often encourage us to go ahead so that they don't have a trail of craft following. This happened to us at Baye while waiting to go through the three tunnels en-route to the Sardy flight, first passage of the morning. The hotel captain sent one of his crew round to tell us that they were due through and that if any of us (several boats) wanted to get going first that we were welcome.

 

Due to the relationship between craft length and limiting speed your barge is faster than ours which, IIRC from the calculations that I did, should limit at about 9 - 10kph so overtaking commercials is unlikely to worry us much except in very specific circumstances.

 

Roger

[bargemast]

Another problem with many pleasure boaters is that they often complain about commercials staying in the middle of the canal when they meet them, and not showing the slightest move to one side to let them get through, and this while they are still about 100m away from them, with as result that they start to panic (even more !) and run into the bank, jumping ashore trying to hold their boat there while the (in their eyes nasty)commercial go's by pulling them and their boat away from the bank, instead of just slowly continuing towards the barge to keep steerage and then as they are about 10m away from the bows of the commercial steer just a little bit towards the bank on their side, the bowwaves will do the rest and when past the barge will pull them automaticly back to sort of mid-channel.

 

I think that it would be most useful for their peace of mind (and for the sake of their underpants) to do at least something like Tam and Di's barge training sessions, to have an idea of what should be done to handle their boats in a more professional way, the rest will (hopefully) come with experience.

 

Peter.

[Tam & Di]

Another problem with many pleasure boaters is that they often complain about commercials staying in the middle of the canal when they meet them, and not showing the slightest move to one side to let them get through, and this while they are still about 100m away from them, with as result that they start to panic (even more !) and run into the bank, jumping ashore trying to hold their boat there while the (in their eyes nasty)commercial go's by pulling them and their boat away from the bank, instead of just slowly continuing towards the barge to keep steerage and then as they are about 10m away from the bows of the commercial steer just a little bit towards the bank on their side, the bowwaves will do the rest and when past the barge will pull them automaticly back to sort of mid-channel.

 

I think that it would be most useful for their peace of mind (and for the sake of their underpants) to do at least something like Tam and Di's barge training sessions, to have an idea of what should be done to handle their boats in a more professional way, the rest will (hopefully) come with experience.

 

Peter.

 

We're in danger of running a mutual admiration society here, but again I totally endorse what you say, and again it is a thing we emphasise with our trainees. A steerer is responsible for his own boat. Meeting an 80m+ ship on the Rhône or the Seine - so what? There is so much space and such deep water that the interaction is negligible. Meet a loaded 38m automoteur on a Freycinet waterway and you really do need to know what you are doing. If you slow right down or pull right over to the bank you have simply abdicated all responsibility for your craft, and you will be thrown about like an empty plastic bottle by the movement of water he sets up. You may even be sat on the bottom or swung out across the canal as he draws all the water from away under you. It is no use crying then and blaming him - you need to kick yourself in the bum and tell yourself how stupid you were, and that next time you will keep going at a moderate speed and stay as close to him as you can. It is bad manners to actually come into contact, but you will find that almost impossible anyway as the pressure from his bow wave will push you well clear. Aim to be close enough to shake hands with the batellier as you pass.

 

Another bleat we've heard from now two different narrow boat owners is that they were "tipped". An expression we had not encountered before, but it was because each of them had tied tight to the bank using a line from the roof, and as a chargé went by and drew the water away from under them their boat heeled right over. They each of them blamed the chargé with no thought that it might be down to their own ignorance, or that they might be able to moor in a way that did not make that happen. All I can hope is that such people have such a bad time here that they quickly go back to the UK and annoy people there instead. Everyone starts from a position of knowing nothing, but some seem content to stay there.

 

Edited to add:-

Sorry Neil - we seem to have hijacked your thread, but there are possibly people reading it because they are thinking about coming with their boat to the continent, and I'm afraid that ignorance is not bliss after all. I suppose we should have taken it to the boat handling category instead.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Tam & Di

[Neil TNC]

We're in danger of running a mutual admiration society here, but again I totally endorse what you say, and again it is a thing we emphasise with our trainees. A steerer is responsible for his own boat. Meeting an 80m+ ship on the Rhône or the Seine - so what? There is so much space and such deep water that the interaction is negligible. Meet a loaded 38m automoteur on a Freycinet waterway and you really do need to know what you are doing. If you slow right down or pull right over to the bank you have simply abdicated all responsibility for your craft, and you will be thrown about like an empty plastic bottle by the movement of water he sets up. You may even be sat on the bottom or swung out across the canal as he draws all the water from away under you. It is no use crying then and blaming him - you need to kick yourself in the bum and tell yourself how stupid you were, and that next time you will keep going at a moderate speed and stay as close to him as you can. It is bad manners to actually come into contact, but you will find that almost impossible anyway as the pressure from his bow wave will push you well clear. Aim to be close enough to shake hands with the batellier as you pass.

 

Another bleat we've heard from now two different narrow boat owners is that they were "tipped". An expression we had not encountered before, but it was because each of them had tied tight to the bank using a line from the roof, and as a chargé went by and drew the water away from under them their boat heeled right over. They each of them blamed the chargé with no thought that it might be down to their own ignorance, or that they might be able to moor in a way that did not make that happen. All I can hope is that such people have such a bad time here that they quickly go back to the UK and annoy people there instead. Everyone starts from a position of knowing nothing, but some seem content to stay there.

 

Edited to add:-

Sorry Neil - we seem to have hijacked your thread, but there are possibly people reading it because they are thinking about coming with their boat to the continent, and I'm afraid that ignorance is not bliss after all. I suppose we should have taken it to the boat handling category instead.

 

That's OK...bloody narrowboaters!

Over the years I have learn't a lot from thread drift and think it should not be clamped down on.

Anyroad, I thought his forum is meant to be Canal-World.

My suggestion for any one wanting to bring their narrrowboat over to the continental waterways, is have a good practise over here first, on the Ship Canal, Trent, Ouse, Thames Tideway and Aire and Calder (if you can actually find any commercials on the A&C - following Humber Energy, or passing it loaded will give the average boater an insight into what it is like passing a loaded commercial on the Freycinet size waterways in France), then either do your excellent course, or offer to crew for the many boat owners in mainland Europe, many desparate for crew....oh and learn proper French! (Mrs TNC is doing an evening class "A" level French...I am beyond hope!)

Edited January 31, 2011 by Neil Arlidge

[Timleech]

That's OK...bloody narrowboaters!

Over the years I have learn't a lot from thread drift and think it should not be clamped down on.

Anyroad, I thought his forum is meant to be Canal-World.

My suggestion for any one wanting to bring their narrrowboat over to the continental waterways, is have a good practise over here first, on the Ship Canal, Trent, Ouse, Thames Tideway and Aire and Calder (if you can actually find any commercials on the A&C - following Humber Energy, or passing it loaded will give the average boater an insight into what it is like passing a loaded commercial on the Freycinet size waterways in France), then either do your excellent course, or offer to crew for the many boat owners in mainland Europe, many desparate for crew....oh and learn proper French! (Mrs TNC is doing an evening class "A" level French...I am beyond hope!)

 

Coincidentally I've been shifting pictures around and just come across this picture from when we were taking the Beecliffe down the Rhone.

 

 

Not sure I'd really fancy a narrowboat there that day

 

Tim

[Neil TNC]

Coincidentally I've been shifting pictures around and just come across this picture from when we were taking the Beecliffe down the Rhone.

 

 

Not sure I'd really fancy a narrowboat there that day

 

Tim

 

As I said, get some practice over here!

 

 

Anyroad, I did not take NB Earnest across to mainland Europe. Yes we could have got by OK, but I am getting past-it, my experienced TNC crew are into other things and want an easier life.

Earnest is now "decomissioned"...better to get out, while you are still ahead!

[bargemast]

Were the plank, the pole and the boathook still on the roof at the end of the trip ?

 

They don't seem to be secured, which looks like asking for losing them.

 

Peter.

[mykaskin]

Were the plank, the pole and the boathook still on the roof at the end of the trip ?

 

They don't seem to be secured, which looks like asking for losing them.

 

Peter.

 

Why? They're not going to go very far are they? In fact the pole is about as far as it's going to get.

Edited February 2, 2011 by mykaskin

[Neil TNC]

Were the plank, the pole and the boathook still on the roof at the end of the trip ?

 

They don't seem to be secured, which looks like asking for losing them.

 

Peter.

 

Yes, this was the infamous Hessle Whelps, it only lasted 10 mins. Narrowboats don't pitch about like cruisers, they tend to submarine through waves, hence the bottom plate slam, in reality it was quite a smooth ride. Interesting to note that Humber VTS were very accurate about where we would hit them and how long they would last. Of course the locals said we should have gone off channel to miss them, but unless you really know the waters, it better to go by the book. ISTR that the equipment was off the racks due to a tight headroom passage down the River Hull.

[mykaskin]

I tend to find the worst of the Whelps just before coming under the bridge on the North side, but I guess it makes some difference where the channel is that day. On a rising tide we nearly always take the North Channel even if thats not the main channel as it can be a softer ride.

 

Mike