Waterways world

[Jon]

Guys,

 

I know I've not contributed much, but this has been an interesting discussion so far...

 

We're lucky that Richard has contributed openly his views to the discussion, thank you. Please can we continue to make the most of this opportunity by posting comments/concerns/issues/replies in a polite and reasonable manner.

 

I can see a little tension mounting here, which would destroy the discussion for everyone.

 

Thanks all,

 

Jon

[John Orentas]

A steam boat special.

 

us, president, adamant, laplander, tixal, and the oil fired ones

 

A remeber laplander featured breifly, i think it was a photo somone set in, it had a caption somthing like "yes, odd looking boat, posaable an old icebreaker, wonder what that odd chimmeys for...."

Daniel

 

Daniel

 

Daniel.

 

I came close to buying Laplander more than twenty years ago, it was moored at Marple and in poor condition with a amateur built cabin though it's origins were quite clear as being a horse drawn icebreaker. It was obviously very old built from riveted wrought iron with a three dimension curvature hull. Though I was tempted it was really too small for me, I have since learnt it is one of the oldest floating boats on the system.

 

The next time I saw the boat was on display at the Earls Court Boat Show probably eight years later, fully restored and fitted with a contemporary steam engine. It had a nice sympathetic cabin and fit-out.

 

Where is it now, has it metamorphosed again.

[DHutch]

I came close to buying Laplander more than twenty years ago...

 

...Where is it now, has it metamorphosed again.

Really, i never knew. Tis quite small tho!

 

Yeah, i dont know the current owner or acactlyshes shes based. BUt shes now looking quite smart, and is kited out with a steam plant

- shes often seen with Phillip & Adamant, who are based somewhere around the south of birmingham. (i think)

 

I could tell you more if i was at home and had the SBA register etc with me.

- Ill try and rubbage up a photo (shes grey/red, and short)

 

 

Daniel

[Richard Fairhurst]

Laplander is owned by Sean Neill, who I think moors it at Newbold on the north Oxford.

[GRPCruiserman]

seeing as this has become a shopping list.

 

How too's and lots of em.

 

How to pack a stern gland

How to service a diesel engine.

Articles on damage repair.

Eiagrams for the more difficult maneuvers.

Examples of unusual boats maybe?

 

How about arranging tests of new outboards for the cruiser owners. if you like, i can even arrange the loan of a cruiser to test em on. one of the most asked questions I see is "what outboard should i buy?"

 

The entire canal industry seems now to have abandoned us GRP cruiser owners.

 

I visited the national in August 2005 and there was not a single outboard stall, only a few small dinghy engines. No Honda, no Johnson/Evinrude, and Barrus who some years ago had a very large outboard presence at Salford Quays, only had inboards with them and I think a small dinghy engine.

 

In fact there were very few stalls with cruiser equipment on, ALL narrow boat orientated.

 

A number of large marinas are now totally narrow boat, and as for slipways, well these are disappearing at a great rate of knots, we had to fight a campaign a couple of years ago when BW made the slipway at Carnforth unusable, eventually resulting in the restoration of access, but still allowing pub visitors to park across the entrance to it and removing the BW owned parking for the same, effectively preventing day cruising.

 

The BW owned slipway at Galgate has now slipped in to the hands of BW marinas and is now almost impossible to use, and weekends are a definate no-no due to no staff being at the marina at week ends.

 

A charge is now also levied at Cowling Brow whereas it was previously free and accessed by a handcuff key. It is now firmly padlocked only to be used when pre-booked and BW staff come to take the money.

 

As I stated further up this thread, the canal magazines appear to have abandoned GRP boats in favour of narrow boats.

 

The nearest analogy would seem to be when GRP took over from wood in the 1960s and 70s, wooden boats now have their own press, as we GRP owners now have in the form of the coastal type magazines.

 

My issue is this: anyone new to canals would not be aware that they can still buy a perfectly servicable boat for a few hundred pounds and an outboard for about £200. Small boats mean small running costs, £50 odd per year insurance for example.

 

This means we will have fewer people encouraged to join us on the canal at a younger age, so the canals will become populated by older middle aged people in floating gin palaces. When these people become too old to continue, who will take their place? Perhaps by then we will have 2000 miles of linear museum with a few BW owned trip boats to colour the honey pot canal side spots where people can be persuaded to pay to come in to the 'Canal World Theme Park'.

 

It is already becoming the domain of the better healed financially, I know I now struggle, and certainly couldn't afford to run a narrow boat.

 

The answer is, I suppose, to live on board the boat, as many of my friends do, but there seems to be a (perceived at least) alienation by the previously mentioned well off businessman/women types who own the shiniest boats towards any one who lives on board. I have heard discrimination against people who live on their boat from such people. Surely if living aboard was actively encouraged by all concerned, including BW, then we would have a more secure (due to regular population and use), more colourful environment.

 

Us GRP owners also seem to be alienated by shiny top narrow boats, which does seem to get worse as you travel south down the system. Llangollen a couple of years ago attracted lots of attention when two of us in GRP cruisers made the trip to the top, quite often being shunned and ignored by narrow boat owners. It is still not so bad on the Lancaster where GRP is still common, but is getting worse.

 

On the point of doing the magazine editor's job, I for one, would love to be a waterways journalist with a free reign. I did attempt to break in to that world some years ago but it did seem almost impossible.

 

Well, this is only my humble opinion, and as I have always had a reputation for speaking my mind, I suppose in business, I am doomed to scrub the steps of any proverbial office that I have the good fortune to be employed within. This means low salary, and cheap boating!!

 

Edited January 10, 2006 by GRPCruiserman

[ChrisPy]

 

 

I would much rather read some good hard and fast helpfull info than some of sillyer "infomation" that manages to get published

A is for 'A Boat'

B is for 'Boat'

C is for 'Canal'

etc (Grrr)

Daniel

I'll second that.

 

It is another sign that there is insufficient good quality material to fill those editorial pages.

[DHutch]

Laplander is owned by Sean Neill, who I think moors it at Newbold on the north Oxford.

Thats the fellow...

[Sir Nibble]

I think that inland waterways users represent a niche market. There simply aren't enough of us to support the type of publications enjoyed by for instance car or motorcycle enthusiasts. If you aren't currently in the market for a boat or equipment then not only the adverts but also new build reviews and boat show reports become irrelevant. Remove the commercial side of the inland waterway scene and stick to cruising matters and it is still difficult to hold the interest of folks cruising 200 miles away from where your feature is set. Hence small circulation=high price+ over reliance on advertisers.

[John Orentas]

As an aside Canal & Riverboat have changed their name and reduced the price, the story is they are looking a bit fragile.

[fuzzyduck]

some disjointed thoughts from me, forgive me if i'm teaching granny to suck eggs, but i'm trying to put in my balanced opinion.

 

GRPCruiserman

 

this is where the internet fills the gap. most narrowbeam marques have their own owners associations, Norman, Dawncraft etc. all of which welcome contibutions from GRP owners. so i guess maybe if they've abandoned you, then abandon them back. as for GRP needs being serviced by costal magazines, I'm not sure that any of my needs other than maybe advertisers could be served by "Gin Palaces Monthly"

 

Richard

 

consider yourself very lucky, in CW you have your very own focus group that represents a large cross section of the inland waterways community; from the weekend and holiday cruisers, to the liveaboard lifestyle sections of the population. sure this focus group is goin to bite you in the ass from time to time, but hell what an opportunity. (just don't listen to us too much) [ tongue in cheek] Maybe Pirate is onto something and we should all be given a free subscription, and we can review you, and keep you on track. [ /tongue in cheek]

 

Moving on

 

Lets face it, when all is said and done, WW and the like are profit driven. AOL Time Warner and the like, are not going to look at one of their publications and say "it's making a loss, but look at the quality of that article, bought a tear to my eye" it is all about the profit. Now I'm not saying that Richard is 100% motivated by profit, because I don't believe that for one second. As far as i'm concerned Richard is lucky, and making money out of something we all love, just like Nigel.

 

** Lets say WW got a review boat from Gary. the boat stinks, they are not going to conclude that Ledgard Bridge should be avoided at all costs, they will carefully word the article to avoid saying "this boat sucks" because if they do, Gary is quite rightly going to not advertise with them again. do that too often and suddenly you are going to have groups accountants tapdancing up and down your spine wearing hob nail boots. If you're a smaller publication, you are even more reliant on advertisers cash, as the paycheques come from the magazine's bank account.

 

I'm not convinced that larger circulation publications in niche markets like WW have much of a future. I think self publication by smaller entities like CW will eventually make print "niche" media a thing of the past. However this is not going to happen tomorrow.

 

** this is hypothetical, from what i've personally observed, and by all accounts of others, Ledgard Bridge build beautiful quality boats (although i've never seen a professional review)

Edited January 10, 2006 by fuzzyduck

[Richard Fairhurst]

On the point of doing the magazine editor's job, I for one, would love to be a waterways journalist with a free reign. I did attempt to break in to that world some years ago but it did seem almost impossible.

The best way to break into it is to get your articles published in one of the three magazines. All three accept freelance contributions (we have some 'Notes for Contributors' which I can e-mail you if you're interested). If your contributions are good, you'll then be better placed to take one of the full-time jobs. There aren't many of these, but one comes up every couple of years.

[Richard Fairhurst]

(Interesting and well-reasoned post - thank you!)

 

** Lets say WW got a review boat from Gary. the boat stinks, they are not going to conclude that Ledgard Bridge should be avoided at all costs, they will carefully word the article to avoid saying "this boat sucks"

Generally we won't review a boat unless we already have some experience of it, or its builder. Sometimes this will be seeing a boat at Crick or the National; sometimes it'll be experience of the same builder's earlier boats.

 

The reason you don't see "this boat sucks" very often is simply because we aim not to review sucky boats. (This certainly also used to be the case at Canal Boat: they've changed editor since I worked there, so I don't know if they still take the same approach.)

 

This isn't because we don't want to offend advertisers - as I said, I don't find out who's advertising in the magazine until it comes back from the printers. It's more that we only have limited feature pages in each issue, and I don't want to waste 10% of them on a pile of cr*p.

[fuzzyduck]

this is not intending to be negative, but is going to come across as such.

 

so start doing it. pick a price point and review the first 5 boats you can get your hands on in that price point. now we know damn well the manufacturer is going to make sure you get the best of their work, but we'll get an idea.

 

by omitting "sucky boats" you're actually not doing your readership any favours. maybe, just maybe, if you'd reviewed the boat manufacturer that made the boat that Ledgard bridge had to do all that work on, the unfortunate owner might have passed them by. and if a manufacturer refuses to let you have a boat to review, tell us.

 

what point is a review if you carefully select craft that are going to get good reviews? just have a list of "boat manufacturers we'd say nice things about" and save 2-3 pages for an article on "cheeses made near the Kennet and Avon."

 

Edit

---------------------

 

Actually I do see the point, damn i consider myself at least moderately intelligent (if not that literate) and i missed it.

Edited January 10, 2006 by fuzzyduck

[Pirate]

(Interesting and well-reasoned post - thank you!)

Generally we won't review a boat unless we already have some experience of it, or its builder. Sometimes this will be seeing a boat at Crick or the National; sometimes it'll be experience of the same builder's earlier boats.

 

The reason you don't see "this boat sucks" very often is simply because we aim not to review sucky boats. (This certainly also used to be the case at Canal Boat: they've changed editor since I worked there, so I don't know if they still take the same approach.)

 

This isn't because we don't want to offend advertisers - as I said, I don't find out who's advertising in the magazine until it comes back from the printers. It's more that we only have limited feature pages in each issue, and I don't want to waste 10% of them on a pile of cr*p.

 

 

Would it be possible to have a section every month on folk that have had boats built and their oppinions of their builders work?

 

That would keep the builders on their toes too.

[davidandheather]

this is not intending to be negative, but is going to come across as such.

 

so start doing it. pick a price point and review the first 5 boats you can get your hands on in that price point. now we know damn well the manufacturer is going to make sure you get the best of their work, but we'll get an idea.

 

by omitting "sucky boats" you're actually not doing your readership any favours. maybe, just maybe, if you'd reviewed the boat manufacturer that made the boat that Ledgard bridge had to do all that work on, the unfortunate owner might have passed them by. and if a manufacturer refuses to let you have a boat to review, tell us.

 

what point is a review if you carefully select craft that are going to get good reviews? just have a list of "boat manufacturers we'd say nice things about" and save 2-3 pages for an article on "cheeses made near the Kennet and Avon."

Hi so why not do a boat test like a car mag would just pick 5 and do a report on them then pick a best buy.

Or make it a owners long term test give the reader a true view of the boats long term

David

[Sir Nibble]

This is turning out to be a most constructive and interesting thread.

Richard, give Fuzzyduck a job!

[fuzzyduck]

This is turning out to be a most constructive and interesting thread.

Richard, give Fuzzyduck a job!

 

hehehe, gosh thanks.

 

They need to keep circulation up, and I don't think an article written by me would help.

 

You want your corporate network secured, then i'm your man, want a magazine written, call Richard.

[DHutch]

so start doing it. pick a price point and review the first 5 boats you can get your hands on in that price point. now we know damn well the manufacturer is going to make sure you get the best of their work, but we'll get an idea.

 

by omitting "sucky boats" you're actually not doing your readership any favours. maybe, just maybe, if you'd reviewed the boat manufacturer that made the boat that Ledgard bridge had to do all that work on, the unfortunate owner might have passed them by. and if a manufacturer refuses to let you have a boat to review, tell us.

 

what point is a review if you carefully select craft that are going to get good reviews? just have a list of "boat manufacturers we'd say nice things about" and save 2-3 pages for an article on "cheeses made near the Kennet and Avon."

Yeah, i agree with this.

 

Its what the PC mags do "15 sub £400 desktops" or whatever.

- And they they just reveiw them, and basicaly seam to say what they thing.

- There never over negeative, but requarly put machines in there place

"this machine is overpriced for what it is" or "some parts of the pc are realy good, but the choice of motherboard is a major slip-up"

 

 

Daniel

[fuzzyduck]

yeah they could have key phrases like

 

"This has the potential to be a good servicable boat, if the canal water stayed on the outside"

Or.

"the diesel lacked some functionality including revolutions, although the addition of spontanious combustion was we felt, more than required in a boat of this price"

[Gary Peacock]

Yeah, i agree with this.

 

Its what the PC mags do "15 sub £400 desktops" or whatever.

- And they they just reveiw them, and basicaly seam to say what they thing.

- There never over negeative, but requarly put machines in there place

"this machine is overpriced for what it is" or "some parts of the pc are realy good, but the choice of motherboard is a major slip-up"

Daniel

 

 

Never given it much thought before but your right I have never seen criticism or direct comparisons of any product in any of the waterways mags. I wonder why? The car mags do it all the time.

 

Maybe their all too nice to upset anyone!

[Richard Fairhurst]

You sure you don't want to write for us, Fuzzyduck?

 

WW did do a comparison of similarly-priced narrowboats earlier in 2005, written by our technical editor, Graham Booth. It was a while before I arrived, so I can't remember the month, I'm afraid. But it was there.

 

I suspect the reason why this has never happened much is that narrowboats have traditionally been built bespoke, which isn't really the case with cars! But with off-the-peg narrowboats becoming common, it starts to make more sense.

[fuzzyduck]

but even with bespoke boats there are lots of indicators of quality; joinery, wiring, engine install, plumbing.

 

and there are so many more things you could come up with interesting comparison reviews on, Esberspatcher Vs Propex heating in smaller craft. efficiency of larger heating systems, test gas detectors, test fire extinguishers. explore the merits of fire dumping systems, destruction testing of batteries, load testing circuit breakers. the relative merits of hire companies, review 12V appliances, get a family of 4 to rate canal side tourist attractions.

 

And don't forget the cruisers.

 

where did this start?

Edited January 10, 2006 by fuzzyduck

[alan_fincher]

This isn't because we don't want to offend advertisers - as I said, I don't find out who's advertising in the magazine until it comes back from the printers.

 

Richard,

 

I'm very pleased to see an informed debate on what the content of the mag should be.

 

However, I do take the above statement with more than a pinch of salt.

 

Surely the advertisers this month are at least 95% identical to those last month, and the previous month, and the previous month, (get the picture....)......

 

As I said in a previous post, I don't object to so much advertising if it helps subsidise the magazine.

 

However, you'd surely be struggling to say that many new advertisers appear in any month, or many former ones go away ?

 

In fact it's not just the advertisers that don't change much - on the whole, neither do their adverts. (Even "this month's special offers are usually pretrty identical to "last months special offers"...)

[John Orentas]

but even with bespoke boats there are lots of indicators of quality; joinery, wiring, engine install, plumbing.

 

and there are so many more things you could come up with interesting articles on, Esberspatcher Vs Propex heating in smaller craft. efficiency of larger heating systems, test gas detectors, test fire extinguishers. explore the merits of fire dumping systems, destruction testing of batteries, load testing circuit breakers. the relative merits of hire companies, review 12V appliances, get a family of 4 to rate canal side tourist attractions, hell have a WoW section for the children.

 

And don't forget the cruisers.

 

where did this start?

 

 

Fuzzy.

 

Don't forget to send your CV too.

 

I was shortlisted for the job which eventually went to Rupert Smedley, as I wasn't offered the job you may conclude that their judgement is very questionable.

[fuzzyduck]

nahhhh, I think i might have just identified a niche in this niche market.

 

let all the others compete with each other for the new boat buyers. I'll get everyone else with "What bit of canal boat"

 

and it's copyright me! muahhahaha

 

---------------------------------------

 

well, it's not copyright, but I had to get the evil overlord laugh in there somewhere.

Edited January 10, 2006 by fuzzyduck