Need To Do A Quick Reseal Of Boat Windows To Cabin Side

[alan_fincher]

In the recent heavy rains one of our windows has let in water.

 

I knew it was slightly dodgy, but had hoped to leave it until warmer/better weather, and longer days. I now know I must do some running repairs before then, even if a more thourough job gets re-done next year.

 

It's a standard type window, squared corners at top, rounded at bottom, with a drop back hopper vent at the top. I can't prove it yet, but think the water is getting in because the joint between window and cabin sides has failed, rather than the seals between window frame and glass. It's screwed through holes in the cabin side, and into battens, (only softwood), behind. The screws are probaly something like 1.5" No 6, I'd say. (Incidentally they are brass, and the surveyor said should be changed because of reaction with the aluminium window frames).

 

So, if possible, I need within one short winter day to get it off, do as much making good of the cabin side as possible, (definitely some rust under it), then get it bedded back on before nightfall. Clearly not a lot of time to get any rust inhibitors, primers, paints, etc on, and dry.

 

I've already had some very helpful advice from Moley about how he tackled something similar, so am just looking for further thoughts on how to get this done quickly.

 

What should I put over bare/rusty steel that I will inevitably find ? (I noted some of the rust convertors say "Don't apply below 10 degrees C" - a bit of a limitation right now!)

 

What sealant is best. I know a lot of people swear by Silicone, (RTV, I think ?), but the surveyor suggested polsulphide or butyl based mastic, neither of which I'm really familiar with, nor know brand names for ?

 

What's the best material for screws, to prevent electolytic corrosion of the windows ?

 

What do people think please ?

Edited December 8, 2005 by alan_fincher

[John Orentas]

Alan.

 

The best wood-screws are stainless steel A4. But brass is a very close second place, much more likely to be 3/4 or 1" No 6.

 

It should be easy enough getting all the screws out but you might have problems releasing the frame from the cabin side without causing damage. What is the rush you will no doubt find corrosion below the frames, grind off the rust, apply primer (red oxide is OK) undercoat and a couple of top coats round the area behind the frame. Re-seal with RTV Silicone.

 

All this may take the best part of a week, just but cover the window with plastic sheet every day held down by sticky tape.

[Gary Peacock]

Arboseal tape is what the window manufacturers recommend.

 

Adshead Ratcliffe Arboseal Butyl sealant for windows etc

Derby Rd, Belper Derby DE56 1WJ

Tel: 01773 826661

[Alastair]

The main difference between the silicone and polysulphide sealants, is that you can paint over the polysulphide.

 

This may or may not be an issue for you. Silicone is much cheaper.

[elessina]

In the recent heavy rains one of our windows has let in water.

 

We had the same problem on one of our windows on our new narrowboat purchased 6 years ago. I removed all the window frame screws, but could not remove the window, it was stuck in fast (even though the window had been installed only months beforehand). I quickly realised that if I continued to try to remove the frame, I would end up damaging it. So I scraped away as much of the sealant I could around the frame (inserting a screwdriver / wedge between frame and boat side to increase the gap), then simply re-sealed it with silicon sealant. It worked, never had any more problems with the window leaking.

ian

[Keeping Up]

In the recent heavy rains one of our windows has let in water.

 

I knew it was slightly dodgy, but had hoped to leave it until warmer/better weather, and longer days. I now know I must do some running repairs before then, even if a more thourough job gets re-done next year.

 

It's a standard type window, squared corners at top, rounded at bottom, with a drop back hopper vent at the top. I can't prove it yet, but think the water is getting in because the joint between window and cabin sides has failed, rather than the seals between window frame and glass. It's screwed through holes in the cabin side, and into battens, (only softwood), behind. The screws are probaly something like 1.5" No 6, I'd say. (Incidentally they are brass, and the surveyor said should be changed because of reaction with the aluminium window frames).

 

So, if possible, I need within one short winter day to get it off, do as much making good of the cabin side as possible, (definitely some rust under it), then get it bedded back on before nightfall. Clearly not a lot of time to get any rust inhibitors, primers, paints, etc on, and dry.

 

I've already had some very helpful advice from Moley about how he tackled something similar, so am just looking for further thoughts on how to get this done quickly.

 

What should I put over bare/rusty steel that I will inevitably find ? (I noted some of the rust convertors say "Don't apply below 10 degrees C" - a bit of a limitation right now!)

 

What sealant is best. I know a lot of people swear by Silicone, (RTV, I think ?), but the surveyor suggested polsulphide or butyl based mastic, neither of which I'm really familiar with, nor know brand names for ?

 

What's the best material for screws, to prevent electolytic corrosion of the windows ?

 

What do people think please ?

We had a similar problem a few years ago and someone suggested that the water may not be getting through the main surround area at all, but merely down the screws. I unscrewed each screw a turn or so, and squirted a bit of silicone sealer behind the head before tightening it up. Sure enough, the problem was solved, and has not re-appeared. May be worth a try first.

[Moley]

It should be easy enough getting all the screws out but you might have problems releasing the frame from the cabin side without causing damage.

 

No problem, remove all screws then run a sharp knife blade all the way around. Quite disconcerting from a security viewpoint just how easily they all come out.

 

All this may take the best part of a week, just but cover the window with plastic sheet every day held down by sticky tape.

 

I did 9 windows in 2 days, red oxide primer's dry in 2 hours and no window was out for more than 3 hours.

 

Arboseal tape is what the window manufacturers recommend.

 

If that's the foam-cored double-sided sticky stuff that ours were held in with, I'm not impressed. Every window leaked. How often should this stuff need to be renewed? Silicone seems to work fine, be generous with your bead and check it's squeezed out all round as you re-tighten the screws.

 

Someone suggested that the water may not be getting through the main surround area at all, but merely down the screws. I unscrewed each screw a turn or so, and squirted a bit of silicone sealer behind the head before tightening it up.

 

Absolutely, and smear a bit of the clear drying stuff on top of the screw head too.

[Guest]

Glad to see more and more people now use silicon. It used to be a sin. Thou shalt not use silicon on boats.

[DHutch]

What is the rush...

I think the point is that the boat is outside, not under cover, and its winter.

- Even a leaky window is better that a 3ft hole.

- And theres a sercurity aspect as well.

 

As john said you may run into problems geting the frames out as if they've been sealed with silicon or the like this can stick them supresingly well! And somtimes it can be diffcult to get a knife in there (an old kitchen knife is best, thinnner the better, just dont snap the end off)

 

Then havine taken them out, i'd use eather a decent RTV (room temp vulcaisting) silicon, or a decent polyuerthene sealent (sicaflex or simular) And some SSteel screws, Brass screws are a pain in the arse, an i hate using them, and theres these the brass/alu thing as well.

 

Alternatively, if you plan to do it all in the summer anyway, i've be very temped to just run a line of tape around the join, and possably over the screw heads too if need be.

- Not a permanet solution, but done neatly it should look ok, and keep everything dry untill you have the time and the weather to it full job in the summer.

 

 

Daniel

[alan_fincher]

Thanks all......

 

What is the rush

 

John, the leak is bad enough that I need to get it sorted quickly, before it causes serious damage inside. I suspect that water has got in, frozen, and hence opened it up more, hence the hurry.

 

Also poor placement of this one window versus where most of the water runs off the roof through gap in cant rail, means a lot could get in quickly. (And also means I'd be reluctant to rely just on plastic taped over the hole).

 

Arboseal tape is what the window manufacturers recommend.

 

Gary, As ever there is a mass of products there, and confusing to the uninitiated. Would the product be Arboseal GZ ? I believe although these products come as a strip on a roll, between separator sheets, they are just like a preformed putty bead, (i.e. not foam cored, like Moley said had failed on his). Correct?

 

Actually our chandlery has something like this, (looks a bit like very long narrow strips of rolled up blu-tack!). But they had no name, no data, and no instructions, except they thought it used to be made by Evostick (I think) called "glasscord" (??), but I can't find an obvious hit on the web.

 

We had a similar problem a few years ago and someone suggested that the water may not be getting through the main surround area at all, but merely down the screws. I unscrewed each screw a turn or so, and squirted a bit of silicone sealer behind the head before tightening it up. Sure enough, the problem was solved, and has not re-appeared. May be worth a try first.

 

Allan, Thanks. Maybe I'll try, but it does look like the layer of sealant between window surround and cabin is not 100%.

 

Then havine taken them out, i'd use eather a decent RTV (room temp vulcaisting) silicon, or a decent polyuerthene sealent (sicaflex or simular).

 

Where does one buy this RTV Silicone ? I couldn't find it in the chandlery.

 

They did however have Sikaflex 291. Again there is hoard of Sikaflex products it seems, so I don't know if that's the one people have raved about, and whether its good for windows. I think it may not be suitable for application at low temperatures, though.

 

And some SSteel screws, Brass screws are a pain in the arse, an i hate using them, and theres these the brass/alu thing as well.

 

Well the surveyor stressed to me that it needed to be mild steel or plated steel (zinc presumably), and NOT stainless, which he said would still react with the aluminium, like the brass has done. Mild steel made no sense to me, though, as surely it would not be possible to stop it rusting.

[DHutch]

They did however have Sikaflex 291. Again there is hoard of Sikaflex products it seems, so I don't know if that's the one people have raved about, and whether its good for windows. I think it may not be suitable for application at low temperatures, though.

There are indee quite a few diffrent sikaflax products, but 291 is the basic all perpose one.

- There also a UV stable one, a slow-cure one (291-lot?), a adhesive one, and a few others.

 

Daniel

[Speedwell]

Well the surveyor stressed to me that it needed to be mild steel or plated steel (zinc presumably), and NOT stainless, which he said would still react with the aluminium, like the brass has done. Mild steel made no sense to me, though, as surely it would not be possible to stop it rusting.

You are right. Do not use mild steel, you will forever have trails of rust running down and causing corrosion. Also there is every chance that they will rust in and break when you try to get them out. Stainless is not perfect for aluminium but the degree of chemical mismatch is nowhere near as great as with brass and it should be fine. Ideal is zinc plated stainless steel but I doubt you can get these commercially. Good quality zinc plated mild steel would be OK but I've never known commercial zinc plated screws last more than about a year without loosing their zinc and rusting.

When I sealed a window, I used the best acrylic sealer that I could get from B&Q. Not as good as silicone as a sealer but much better for overpainting. Gun in a generous bead, screw down the window and wipe off surplus with a damp cloth.

Arthur

[ChrisPy]

You are right. Do not use mild steel, you will forever have trails of rust running down and causing corrosion. Also there is every chance that they will rust in and break when you try to get them out. Stainless is not perfect for aluminium but the degree of chemical mismatch is nowhere near as great as with brass and it should be fine. Ideal is zinc plated stainless steel but I doubt you can get these commercially. Good quality zinc plated mild steel would be OK but I've never known commercial zinc plated screws last more than about a year without loosing their zinc and rusting.

When I sealed a window, I used the best acrylic sealer that I could get from B&Q. Not as good as silicone as a sealer but much better for overpainting. Gun in a generous bead, screw down the window and wipe off surplus with a damp cloth.

Arthur

agreed. that's what I did. All my windows and portholes were fixed with mickey mouse cross head zinc plated screws by the yard. The portholes are retained by the oak liners that I fitted later. I used slot head SS tapered woodscrews, and bedded the frame on acrylic sealant. No mess. The weatherproofness of the trapped sealant should not be a problem, because it is not exposed. I don't understand why there is a big debate about the properties of different sealants.

[John Orentas]

Thanks all......

John, the leak is bad enough that I need to get it sorted quickly, before it causes serious damage inside. I suspect that water has got in, frozen, and hence opened it up more, hence the hurry.

 

 

Alan.

 

What I was getting at was you can't do the job in one day given that to do it properly you must use a primer coat, undercoat and top-coats allowing them to dry in turn. In reasonable weather conditions you can Cellotape a sheet of plastic over the window aperture and do one process per day.

[Guest]

Just a thought: temporary 2x1 wooden frame somewhat bigger than window and silicon to outside cabin side around window to be repaired-silicon will provide a good but temporary bond. Make a plywood shuttering that fits onto 2x1 with holes for screws. Work "!inside" of tmporary frame during day then at night screw on temporary shutter with battery drill (takes 2 mins). Quickly remove in morning to continue work. Remove temp frame and clean off silicon on completion of job. Saw something similar but much bigger in building trade.

[John Orentas]

Just a thought: temporary 2x1 wooden frame somewhat bigger than window and silicon to outside cabin side around window to be repaired-silicon will provide a good but temporary bond. Make a plywood shuttering that fits onto 2x1 with holes for screws. Work "!inside" of tmporary frame during day then at night screw on temporary shutter with battery drill (takes 2 mins). Quickly remove in morning to continue work. Remove temp frame and clean off silicon on completion of job. Saw something similar but much bigger in building trade.

 

 

Good idea that especially if Alan is doing all the windows in turn. Using 2 x 2 frame and plywood a fair bit bigger than the window aperture, self adhesive foam around the edge to seal. A cross batten which clamps the whole thing to the cabin side through the aperture.

[Speedwell]

Just a thought: temporary 2x1 wooden frame somewhat bigger than window and silicon to outside cabin side around window to be repaired-silicon will provide a good but temporary bond. Make a plywood shuttering that fits onto 2x1 with holes for screws. Work "!inside" of tmporary frame during day then at night screw on temporary shutter with battery drill (takes 2 mins). Quickly remove in morning to continue work. Remove temp frame and clean off silicon on completion of job. Saw something similar but much bigger in building trade.

Brilliant idea but better not to use silicone - very difficult to clean off and virtually impossible to paint over

Arthur

[alan_fincher]

Just a thought: temporary 2x1 wooden frame somewhat bigger than window and silicon to outside cabin side around window to be repaired-silicon will provide a good but temporary bond. Make a plywood shuttering that fits onto 2x1 with holes for screws. Work "!inside" of tmporary frame during day then at night screw on temporary shutter with battery drill (takes 2 mins). Quickly remove in morning to continue work. Remove temp frame and clean off silicon on completion of job. Saw something similar but much bigger in building trade.

 

Good idea that especially if Alan is doing all the windows in turn. Using 2 x 2 frame and plywood a fair bit bigger than the window aperture, self adhesive foam around the edge to seal. A cross batten which clamps the whole thing to the cabin side through the aperture.

Yes, brilliant, gentlemen.

 

Something like this may well prove to be the answer, I think. In fact it doesn't even need to have a bottom piece of wood. Just a sheet of plywood with a frame to top and sides, as water isn't going to get in upwards. Seems to me something like the good old fashioned draught seal that you used to get around doors that was a squashy plastic tube, but with a fixing tab on it, (giving a kind of 'P' section), would probably work well, as it should pull down and make a good seal. I'll take a look in my DIY store, and try and find something, I think.

 

I haven't been able to source either the RTV Silicone or SS screws in local shops, so guess I'm going to have to order them up by mail. I've come to the conclusion the bigger the DIY store the less likely you are to find anything useful - although I could have had any amount of half price Xmas decor!

 

I knew someone would be inventive, so thanks both!

[DHutch]

... I've come to the conclusion the bigger the DIY store the less likely you are to find anything useful - although I could have had any amount of half price Xmas decor!

Hehe.

- Yeah, im greatly under-impressed with the likes on homebase/B&Q/etc

- Our local DIY shop has RTVsilicon and a range of SSteel screws...

- However, we get a lot of stuff from screw-fix, which are very good.

- Also, ive used SeaScrew before now, wide range of SS stuff there.

 

 

Daniel

[AJLintern]

Another useful supplier of stainless screws and fitting is http://www.a2a4.co.uk/

[Phil Thompson]

In the recent heavy rains one of our windows has let in water.

 

I knew it was slightly dodgy, but had hoped to leave it until warmer/better weather, and longer days. I now know I must do some running repairs before then, even if a more thourough job gets re-done next year.

 

It's a standard type window, squared corners at top, rounded at bottom, with a drop back hopper vent at the top. I can't prove it yet, but think the water is getting in because the joint between window and cabin sides has failed, rather than the seals between window frame and glass. It's screwed through holes in the cabin side, and into battens, (only softwood), behind. The screws are probaly something like 1.5" No 6, I'd say. (Incidentally they are brass, and the surveyor said should be changed because of reaction with the aluminium window frames).

 

So, if possible, I need within one short winter day to get it off, do as much making good of the cabin side as possible, (definitely some rust under it), then get it bedded back on before nightfall. Clearly not a lot of time to get any rust inhibitors, primers, paints, etc on, and dry.

 

I've already had some very helpful advice from Moley about how he tackled something similar, so am just looking for further thoughts on how to get this done quickly.

 

What should I put over bare/rusty steel that I will inevitably find ? (I noted some of the rust convertors say "Don't apply below 10 degrees C" - a bit of a limitation right now!)

 

What sealant is best. I know a lot of people swear by Silicone, (RTV, I think ?), but the surveyor suggested polsulphide or butyl based mastic, neither of which I'm really familiar with, nor know brand names for ?

 

What's the best material for screws, to prevent electolytic corrosion of the windows ?

 

What do people think please ?

 

 

We used Nitoseal MS50. It is UV stable and can be applied in moist conditions and it is paintable, unlike silicones etc. You don't need any screws, the MS50 will hold the window in place. It is available from any good builders merchants at about £3/tube.

 

We used Nitoseal MS50. It is UV stable and can be applied in moist conditions and it is paintable, unlike silicones etc. You don't need any screws, the MS50 will hold the window in place. It is available from any good builders merchants at about £3/tube.

[Guest]

Yes, brilliant, gentlemen.

 

Something like this may well prove to be the answer, I think. In fact it doesn't even need to have a bottom piece of wood. Just a sheet of plywood with a frame to top and sides, as water isn't going to get in upwards. Seems to me something like the good old fashioned draught seal that you used to get around doors that was a squashy plastic tube, but with a fixing tab on it, (giving a kind of 'P' section), would probably work well, as it should pull down and make a good seal. I'll take a look in my DIY store, and try and find something, I think.

 

I haven't been able to source either the RTV Silicone or SS screws in local shops, so guess I'm going to have to order them up by mail. I've come to the conclusion the bigger the DIY store the less likely you are to find anything useful - although I could have had any amount of half price Xmas decor!

 

I knew someone would be inventive, so thanks both!

There is a draughtproof seal available with a round hollow section that is self adhesive-would be ok i think