Diesel Central Heating

[Mr Who]

I appreciate what you are saying, you work in the industry, im learning, thanks, but my car and van do not suffer from smoking, and at the day, neither do normal tractors around my area smoke, and if that's the case, all advice on this forume about bmc's smoking is a load of sh,t as the advice given they must smoke cos theyre f;cked, not gettin at you, i asked for advice thanks , i also run my vehicles on red. All abuse welcome.

 

No abuse here Rayman, your absolutely right ....it`s the same or at leaste it should be.

 

I repeat if it smokes its full of crap.

 

I`m afraid its so easy to hide the crap in the red, because lets face it, it`s usaully for farmers or builders who dont give a toss so long as it runs there vehicles.

 

There are reasons I wont go into why its possible to become contaminated easily, without even the knowledge of depots, due mainly to laziness............

 

 

Becareful where you buy it?

[Big COL]

I have said this before, and will now repeat my self, white diesel, red diesel are EXACTLY the same, apart from the dye, for tax reasons, i have been done by Cand E , if you know different please, will someone share this with us all?

 

Hi Rayman

 

This has been done to death before. Diesel fuels have cetane ratings the higher the cetane number the better the engine should run.

 

 

1 White Diesel = Cetane 51

 

2 Red Diesel = Cetane 45

 

3 Heating Oil = Cetane 42

 

Most, not all diesel sold on the cut is heating oil, there is also a differing Sulphur content in the grades.

This is why certain central heating boilers do not like to run on so called Red Diesel.

[Gary Peacock]

Hi All,

I have just found this site and forum, immediately registrered (5 minutes ago) and have decided to jump in with both feet.

 

I Live aboard a 57ft Wide beam on the River Cam. I purchased the boat new in September 2004 as a sailaway, fitted with an Eberspacher Hydronics 10 driven diesel heating system. The unit has been a nightmare for the last 12 months, with recurring problems and on my own experiences I would not be able to reccommend it as a sensible buy for anyone contemplating domestic use on a continuous basis.

 

The entire installation including 4 radiators, hot water tank and calorifier, control unit etc all up and running cost in the region of £2500. within 2 months of first use, the system packed up and wouldn't fire up. The service agent on first contact immediately suggested a possible problem with the quality of the fuel. We purchase all of our diesel from the most reputable marina in the area as do most people near us. The fuel was sampled and found to be fine. The engineer cleaned out some carbon build up and fired up the unit. It expired once more 3 days before Christmas and the boat suppliers, service company and Eberspacher were all unable to offer any assistance until January 7th. We had no heating of any sort apart from the cooker, over that whole time! Subsequently most parts of the heater unit were replaced, including the ICU, an enormous ammount of carbon was removed and the whole thing was fired up successfully again. It failed again a few days later and Eberspecher themselves sent a specialist who finally got it going again. We noted the reccommendation to have the system fully serviced within 12 months. The boat suppliers and Eberspecher eventually agreed to pay the costs under guarantee.

 

We have continued to use the fuel from the same marina, and followed the minimum burn time guidelines, using the system for water heating only through the Summer a couple of hours a day, with the occasional use of rads on really cool evenings.

 

Over the last few days the system has been very reluctant to start, producing massive clouds of white, blue, black and brown smoke during the start up, frequently not starting at all. Prolonged telephone conversations with suppliers agents and Eberspecher have as yet produced no results. Eberspecher are implying fuel quality problems (surprise). They have also told me that liveaboards should have the system serviced much more frequently, but will give no indication at all of how frequently. They are also saying quite aggressively that if the combustion chamber is carbon full again, then the fuel is at fault, which is not their responsibility. They are also saying that no matter how good the fuel source is, there could be water in our tank, diesel bug in the tank, electrical faults on other boats transferred through the water affectig the CPU etc etc. This is all without seeing the unit and inspite of our checks on all of the above.

 

The servicing cost for my unit is £109 plus labour and travelling which totals £250-£300. As this problem seems to occur after 3-4 months of running, that would cost arround £900 P.A. or sling the entire unit every year and buy a new one for not much more!

 

I find it absolutely incredible that Eberspecher can supply this unit for central heating, which cannot run on the fuel available in the area for which it is marketed. Our boat supplier, the biggest in the UK, is currently testing other systems because of the on going problems and lack of interest from Eberspacher. Meanwhile I am fitting a solid fuel stove next week because my £2500 central heating system is not capable of doing the job for which it was sold.

 

My apologies for using my first posting for a rant, my views are entirely personal, but I am MR ANGRY!!!!!

 

Good luck in your search for a liveaboard heating system............Stick with coal and logs!

 

Roger Gunkel

 

 

Hi Roger,

 

I have had some involvement with this and I can see why your a bit upset to say the least about it.

The Hydronic units especially the smaller ones do not like Gas oil (Common red diesel) the lower cetane rating causes them to coke up.

That's no excuse in a marine enviroment where that is the commonly available fuel, but that fact is very well known in the industry. (For at least 3 years)

There are two things you can do get around the fuel problem:-

Run them of kerosene like we do or add Fuelset additive to your fuel this is what Eberspacher reccomend.

 

I do agree Eberspacher do have a customer relations and marketing problem to the public, but they have being quite specific within the trade about the problem.

 

Also do not believe all the claims made about similar products abilities to run on gas oil I know of a very espensive state of the art generator/water heater that is far worse.

[Gary Peacock]

I have said this before, and will now repeat my self, white diesel, red diesel are EXACTLY the same, apart from the dye, for tax reasons, i have been done by Cand E , if you know different please, will someone share this with us all?

 

I was responsible for thousands of gallons of it along with aviation fuel at one point, they are most definitely not all alike. You can in theory have the dye added to white DERV to form RED DERV this avoids paying the same duty but the people with the purses still prefer to buy the grade of raw product to suit a specific purpose, The gas oil used for heating/industrial use is cheaper when that saving is multiplied by many thousands of gallons.

[Alastair]

Eberspacher have officially now stated that their heaters will only run (long term) on kereosene.

[Richard Bustens]

They have been saying that for over a year!

[Gary Peacock]

They have been saying that for over a year!

 

So that begs the question why are people still trying to run new ones on gas oil?

[Roger Gunkel]

So that begs the question why are people still trying to run new ones on gas oil?

The reason that people like me are still trying to run their systems on marine diesel is because we have never been told otherwise!. The boat and system was bought with the fuel pipe coming from the diesel tank, can it be any more explicit than that!. I have spoken at length with Eberspacher and at no time was any reccommendation made to run on Kerosene or with any fuel additive.

 

Alastair and Richard comment that Eberspacher have 'officially stated that there heaters will only run (long term) on kerosene'. Where have they stated this that I, as a prospective purchaser last year would have seen? Why have the sellers of the boat not been told? Why have Eberspacher not told me as a customer, particularly as their own engineers came to my boat to get it running?

 

As Gary says 'Eberspacher have a customer relations and marketing problem to the public'. This has had a serious effect on our day to day living, and I would suggest that anyone contemplating `using a new Eberspacher system for their only heating source, should get very clear information on:-

 

1) The type of fuel that will enable it to keep running

2) Availability of that fuel and ability to get it to the boat

3) Specific guidelines as to service intervals in relation to hours used

4) Cost of services

5) Availability of backup, if any, in the event of a breakdown

 

None of the above were available or offered to me at the time or subsequently and as a result of that fact I would stand by my warning about Eberspacher systems, until such time as they face up to their responsibilities openly to their customers.

 

Roger

[Richard Bustens]

Roger we were discussing it on hear for at least 1 year i have found one link that goes back to last december and i think there are links that go back even further than that.

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...wtopic=477&st=0

[Big COL]

Roger we were discussing it on hear for at least 1 year i have found one link that goes back to last december and i think there are links that go back even further than that.

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...wtopic=477&st=0

 

 

The point Roger is making that it should not be left to him to find out for himself. He should have been told about this either, by the boat builder or the service engineer when he rectified the fault. No manufacturer is readily going to admit that their equipment is not suitable for the job intended. In this case due to the number of complaints they have changed the spec regarding the type of fuel, but they are not shouting about it.

[Roger Gunkel]

The point Roger is making that it should not be left to him to find out for himself. He should have been told about this either, by the boat builder or the service engineer when he rectified the fault. No manufacturer is readily going to admit that their equipment is not suitable for the job intended. In this case due to the number of complaints they have changed the spec regarding the type of fuel, but they are not shouting about it.

 

Thankyou Colin,

 

That sums up my point exactly!

 

What I would like to know is who was officially told of this spec change by Eberspacher, when and how, or was it a whisper made known to the trade but not backed up in writing. Gary and Alastair seem pretty definite, where did it come from?

 

Thanks Richard for the link, I will follow it with interest.

 

Best regards

Roger

[Roger Gunkel]

Roger we were discussing it on hear for at least 1 year i have found one link that goes back to last december and i think there are links that go back even further than that.

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...wtopic=477&st=0

 

Hi Richard,

 

Just looked at the link from last year and I find it quite amazing that people like me are still out there parting with their hard earned, a year after that sort of correspondence.

 

I fully understand the 'here we go again' reaction of many of those of you who have been a party to these forums, but there a large number of people like myself who have joined since with no knowledge of what went before. I feel fully justified in bringing what I see as a BIG!! problem to the attention of all us new innocents and hope that we can continue to learn from yourselves and ask for your indulgence.

 

Best regards,

Roger

[Gary Peacock]

Thankyou Colin,

 

That sums up my point exactly!

 

What I would like to know is who was officially told of this spec change by Eberspacher, when and how, or was it a whisper made known to the trade but not backed up in writing. Gary and Alastair seem pretty definite, where did it come from?

 

Thanks Richard for the link, I will follow it with interest.

 

Best regards

Roger

 

Eberspacher Technical Bulletin No: 223 1 July 2003 introduced dealers to the problem.

I also have a confirmation letter Dated 25 February 2003 confirming the Eberspacher heaters operate on "Commercially Available Diesel" to DIN spec. EN590. This has a Cetane index of 51.

 

It was done quietly and I don't defend that but builders are aware of the problems if they fit one and the customers have grief in my view the builder should be the first port of call he after all holds the first responsibility for the installation.

 

It is worth pointing out we are not dealers but this information was provided to us when we tried to resolve a customers problem, which we did finally acting on the information Eberspacher provided by fitting a separate tank. If we had fitted future units in the original manner we would have exspected to replicate the problem.

[Richard Bustens]

The engineer should have told him ..... but specifications change from time to time and it would be impossable to notify everyone...... but there again car manufactures manage to do this.

 

I suspect the engineer was a bit woried about the responce he was going to get when he informed the owner he needed a seporate tank .

 

O and by the way sir you need a seporate tank for your heater. BANG CRASH, that will be £600, WALOPP

[Alastair]

600? to buy and fit tank. Bargain. Where can I get one from?

[Roger Gunkel]

Eberspacher Technical Bulletin No: 223 1 July 2003 introduced dealers to the problem.

I also have a confirmation letter Dated 25 February 2003 confirming the Eberspacher heaters operate on "Commercially Available Diesel" to DIN spec. EN590. This has a Cetane index of 51.

 

It was done quietly and I don't defend that but builders are aware of the problems if they fit one and the customers have grief in my view the builder should be the first port of call he after all holds the first responsibility for the installation.

 

It is worth pointing out we are not dealers but this information was provided to us when we tried to resolve a customers problem, which we did finally acting on the information Eberspacher provided by fitting a separate tank. If we had fitted future units in the original manner we would have exspected to replicate the problem.

 

Gary, Thanks for that reply, evidence is what I have been lacking.

The only remaining query that I have is through my lack of knowledge on fuels. I have always thought that heating oil and kerosene were the same thing. If that assumption is wrong, then what is the cetane index of kerosene as heating oil is only 42 from Colin's earlier posting.

 

Thanks also to everybody who offered their opinions and to Colin and Richard for their PMs (I'm getting to grips with the site after 24 hours and I think it is brilliant!)

 

Roger

[Gary Peacock]

Gary, Thanks for that reply, evidence is what I have been lacking.

The only remaining query that I have is through my lack of knowledge on fuels. I have always thought that heating oil and kerosene were the same thing. If that assumption is wrong, then what is the cetane index of kerosene as heating oil is only 42 from Colin's earlier posting.

 

Thanks also to everybody who offered their opinions and to Colin and Richard for their PMs (I'm getting to grips with the site after 24 hours and I think it is brilliant!)

 

Roger

 

Sorry I don't know the cetane rating of Kerosene (I think it may be hard to find due to Kerosene not being generally used in internal combustion engines) but I do know that it's nigh on the same as AFTUR used by aircraft jet engines. We used to downgrade and blend AFTUR for vehicles but I don't think a jet engine would have liked DERV.

 

This is worth having to hand if you want help deciphering the kind of technical stuff you will get in any query to Eberspacher about fuel types.

 

http://www.conocophillips.co.uk/NR/rdonlyr...D/0/product.PDF

[dor]

I'm still confused.

 

Many apparent experts have stated on this and other sites that road diesel and our red diesel are the same thing except for the coloured dye added to the latter. Others have stated equally categorically that road diesel and gas oil used for red diesel are two different things and this would explain the problems with some diesel heaters.

 

Both corners are equally adamant that their view is correct.

 

So what is the definitive answer? I accept that the diesel supplied to us by boat yards may not have been stored as cleanly as that supplied by Ms. Tesco, Sainsbury et al, but is the fuel itself any different apart from the dye?

 

Is anybody able to provide a final irrefutable answer, as I think that many of the arguments made above are on soft ground if there is, or isn't, a difference between the two.

[Richard Bustens]

It is very confusing Dor but I THINK that after a conversation i had with the chemist at shell, there are three different Diesels 1 is road derv 2 is TVO 3 is a product used in marine engines that has a higher flash point than ordinary derve for safety reasons and according to shell would only be available from see ports not on the canal.

 

The probability's are that the boat yards are selling TVO which is cheaper than road derve, both of which can have red put into it, and one is far cleaner than the other. perfectly ok for farm tractors or internal combustion engines but not suitable for heaters.

 

The boatyard that sold me my fuel agreed that there are two qualities of fuel and he sold the cheaper one.

[Big COL]

It is very confusing Dor but I THINK that after a conversation i had with the chemist at shell, there are three different Diesels 1 is road derv 2 is TVO 3 is a product used in marine engines that has a higher flash point than ordinary derve for safety reasons and according to shell would only be available from see ports not on the canal.

 

The probability's are that the boat yards are selling TVO which is cheaper than road derve, both of which can have red put into it, and one is far cleaner than the other. perfectly ok for farm tractors or internal combustion engines but not suitable for heaters.

 

The boatyard that sold me my fuel agreed that there are two qualities of fuel and he sold the cheaper one.

 

Richard

 

TVO unless things have changed stands for Tractor Vaporising OIL which I have always been led to believe is a rough grade of paraffin. The sensible thing is to Google up RED Diesel and go through the gradings it is quite complex, as there are so many factors involved. My post on Cetane ratings came from information I had found on Google. They also talk about 28sec oil and 35 second oil the former being paraffin and the latter being Diesel. This is a grading whereby a certain quantity of fuel is passed through a measuring cylinder with a certain sized orifice, the time taken gives it the sec rating, which I assume only measures the viscosity and not any other qualities

[Big COL]

It is very confusing Dor but I THINK that after a conversation i had with the chemist at shell, there are three different Diesels 1 is road derv 2 is TVO 3 is a product used in marine engines that has a higher flash point than ordinary derve for safety reasons and according to shell would only be available from see ports not on the canal.

 

The probability's are that the boat yards are selling TVO which is cheaper than road derve, both of which can have red put into it, and one is far cleaner than the other. perfectly ok for farm tractors or internal combustion engines but not suitable for heaters.

 

The boatyard that sold me my fuel agreed that there are two qualities of fuel and he sold the cheaper one.

 

Richard

 

After checking TVO was withdrawn in 1974, so you must be confused with what the chemist at shell told you.

[Big COL]

Eberspacher Technical Bulletin No: 223 1 July 2003 introduced dealers to the problem.

I also have a confirmation letter Dated 25 February 2003 confirming the Eberspacher heaters operate on "Commercially Available Diesel" to DIN spec. EN590. This has a Cetane index of 51.It was done quietly and I don't defend that but builders are aware of the problems if they fit one and the customers have grief in my view the builder should be the first port of call he after all holds the first responsibility for the installation.

 

It is worth pointing out we are not dealers but this information was provided to us when we tried to resolve a customers problem, which we did finally acting on the information Eberspacher provided by fitting a separate tank. If we had fitted future units in the original manner we would have exspected to replicate the problem.

 

Gary

 

Is it possible that Eberspacher are just sitting this out until Red Diesel is banned, and only white will be available, which should then solve some of the problem of running them on Diesel. The down side to this is will boaters be able to afford to run them on white diesel?

Edited October 14, 2005 by Big COL

[Roger Gunkel]

Eberspacher Technical Bulletin No: 223 1 July 2003 introduced dealers to the problem.

I also have a confirmation letter Dated 25 February 2003 confirming the Eberspacher heaters operate on "Commercially Available Diesel" to DIN spec. EN590. This has a Cetane index of 51.It was done quietly and I don't defend that but builders are aware of the problems if they fit one and the customers have grief in my view the builder should be the first port of call he after all holds the first responsibility for the installation.

 

It is worth pointing out we are not dealers but this information was provided to us when we tried to resolve a customers problem, which we did finally acting on the information Eberspacher provided by fitting a separate tank. If we had fitted future units in the original manner we would have exspected to replicate the problem.

 

Gary

 

Is it possible that Eberspacher are just sitting this out until Red Diesel is banned, and only white will be available, which should then solve some of the problem of running them on Diesel. The down side to this is will boaters be able to afford to run them on white diesel?

 

Hi all

 

My computer was totally unable to access this site yesterday, but no problems on any other. Did everybody else have the same problem or is this the 'EBERGATE' conspiracy theory.

 

Anyway here I am again with so much new info I am not sure where to start.

 

I had an in depth conversation with my boat builder's representative about my failled heater, suitability of fuels, ongoing unreliability and all the things I have previosly mentioned here. He contacted Eberspecher and then rang me back and asked me to speak to his Eberspacher contact direct.

 

This I did. After a slightly disturbing 45 minute phone call to 'a person at Eberspacher' about fuel, impurities, selling to a market where the available fuel is less than ideal etc, it seems that we should all consider ourselve lucky that we don't have to pay tax on our diesel unlike most other poor people. I was also told that this would change after the red diesel goes and we would all have to use white. WRONG! I pointed out quite angrily that as a person who lives and works onboard, that in the depths of winter I use around 50 litres of red diesel per week for 16 hours a day running. At £1 per litre for white diesel, no one in their right mind would consider using an Eberspacher or equivalent spec unit, and their marine sales would simply collapse unless they publicly and openly advised their customers of a viable economical alternative, probably parafin/kerosene.

 

I relayed that back to my boatbuilder who told me he would speak to them again and ring me back.

Hearing nothing for 24 hours, I rang them again, only to be told that the person I was dealing with had gone on holiday for a week and nobody else new anything about it. I went through it again with a new person who was very sympathetic. I also mentioned trading standards, who I have also had a fascinating in depth conversation with. The net result was that Eberspachers UK sales person Steve turner, rang me and we had a genuine and sympathetic discussion over the problem. He informed me that a respected independent company would visit the next morning to inspect the installation, and get my heater working straight away at Eberspecher's expense.

 

The company from Northampton, two guys called Gary and Dave, arrived at 7.00am this morning and left at 12.30. I was very impressed with their Knowledge, approach and efficiency. Also completed my knowledge and conclusions as to direction…… Here it is

 

The Eberspecher Hydronic D10 will run fine on the specified fuel, basically white diesel, with a service interval minimum of 12 months. The unit is designed to run up to maximum speed until the water is to the required temperature, then slow down to maintain that temperature. At the slowest fuel pump rate of about 1 pump per second the unit will tick over. As water temp falls the sensor speeds up fuel delivery and burn as required.

However red diesel has a lower cetane index which means it burns less efficiently. This is fine at higher burn and fuel delivery rates, but on tickover it fails to burn thoroughly producing much larger carbon deposits, clogging the flame tube and causing problems with other components, then failure over a short period of time.

The first suggested remedy was to put in a greater area of heat dispersion in the water system so that the unit never goes into the tickover or slow running mode. A heated towel rail was suggested on the same circuit as the calorifier. I’m sure this would work as the guys seem to have done it before successfully. Another suggestion was a D5 as this would have to work harder and would be less likely to go into slow running. The thing that bothers me is that this sort of remedy, is hiding the fact that the system is being made to run at a constantly higher output simply because it is not suitable for the fuel available.

 

The second and/or parallel suggestion was that the builder should install a second tank for kerosene as the fuel is cleaner and will give the heater no problems with its designed running. As the builder was aware of the fuel problem at the time of building, this would seem to fall directly into their laps.

 

As mentioned by Colin and someone else earlier, Eberspacher are recommending the use of the FUELSET additive which can help reduce the fuel water content and help to improve combustion. This does appear to be of limited help but will probably help to delay the build up of carbon.

 

As a final comment on this very long posting, the guys that came over today, having cleaned up the system and fired it up, said ‘IF THIS SYSTEM IS LEFT AS IT IS, IT WILL FAIL AGAIN SOON.

 

Roger

[Carrie]

Yep - had same problemo.

 

with my computer I mean (not the fuel thing)

[Roger Gunkel]

Yep - had same problemo.

 

with my computer I mean (not the fuel thing)

 

Thanks for that Carrie,

 

Not a conspiracy then, I can safely lock up the dogs as the men in black won't be coming round.

 

Roger