Engine not starting - ideas / suggestions?

[David Schweizer]

I don't know if it helps, but I tested each of my glow plugs by connectin a battery charger negative to the casing and the postitive to the threaded end, and switched it on. The tip glowed red, so I assumed that it worked and put them back. Just be careful to let them cool down before handling them.

 

Edited to add:- I removed the glow plugs first!!

Edited February 17, 2009 by David Schweizer

[Big Steve]

Have to agree with Chris W there, the test sounds meaningless to me.

 

Best bet is his resistance check using a decent meter.

[cornet]

Have to agree with Chris W there, the test sounds meaningless to me.

 

Best bet is his resistance check using a decent meter.

 

Thanks, I'll check the resistance later after I've finished work.

 

While I admit the test done is not 100% comprehensive it still shows there is a problem with at least 1 of the plugs ? If this is not the case then could someone please explain why we would observe the readings we did.

 

Cheers,

Nathan

[Sir Nibble]

Hello !!

 

Becky's significant other here

 

Decided to register and jump in on this thread to clarify some things.

 

 

 

No the bus bar was not disconnected during the test, we just measured the voltage from the glow plug casing to a suitable earth point. 2 of the plugs read 0V indicating that they are blown

 

I'm going to contact a few places tomorrow to see if I can track some glow plugs down but any help with sourcing them would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Cheers,

Nathan

 

btw: Thanks to everyone who has helped so far, especially to Eeyore and steelaway (sorry Alex I managed to misplace your phone number )

The reading shown on a votmeter is the difference in electrical pressure (voltage) between the two probes. If you are seeing a voltage between the glow plug body and a known good -ve that confirms that the connection that SHOULD exist from glow plug to B- is no longer there. The chances are that you have measured 12V through two good plugs across an open circuit -ve and 0V through two unservicable plugs across an equally open circuit -ve. It's not easy checking any of this through a computer screen but I continue to suspect a problem with the earth lead. Connect your voltmeter +ve to the cylinder head and the -ve probe to battery -ve, now crank the engine. Ideally NO VOLTAGE DIFFERENCE WHATEVER should exist between those two points, in practice up to 0.25V is considered acceptable.

[cornet]

The reading shown on a votmeter is the difference in electrical pressure (voltage) between the two probes. If you are seeing a voltage between the glow plug body and a known good -ve that confirms that the connection that SHOULD exist from glow plug to B- is no longer there. The chances are that you have measured 12V through two good plugs across an open circuit -ve and 0V through two unservicable plugs across an equally open circuit -ve.

 

Right I understand that but still this surely means that at least 1 of the glow plugs is still knackered.

 

It's not easy checking any of this through a computer screen but I continue to suspect a problem with the earth lead. Connect your voltmeter +ve to the cylinder head and the -ve probe to battery -ve, now crank the engine. Ideally NO VOLTAGE DIFFERENCE WHATEVER should exist between those two points, in practice up to 0.25V is considered acceptable.

 

Thanks, I'll check that also.

 

Cheers,

Nathan

[Sir Nibble]

Right I understand that but still this surely means that at least 1 of the glow plugs is still knackered.

 

 

 

 

Cheers,

Nathan

Yes, I would agree, and of course I dunno if the system is perhaps insulated return, which complicates matters as far as remote testing is concerned! Since this trouble has all started since engine work was carried out earthing problems must always be top of the list and the tests you have described leaving aside any consideration of which glow plug may or may not be servicable, if I read this right NONE of them are actually working 'cos they have no circuit to -ve! Check that earth.

[Keeping Up]

Given that, as others have said, the slow speed of the starter and the issues about the glow plugs both suggest an earthing problem, perhaps a quick and easy way to help move things forward would be to connect a single jump-lead (like you use for starting cars) from the battery negative to the engine block - somewhere that there's no paint of course. If the engine spins at its normal speed (and starts) you know what the problem was. If it makes no difference, you need to look elsewhere.

[cornet]

Given that, as others have said, the slow speed of the starter and the issues about the glow plugs both suggest an earthing problem, perhaps a quick and easy way to help move things forward would be to connect a single jump-lead (like you use for starting cars) from the battery negative to the engine block - somewhere that there's no paint of course. If the engine spins at its normal speed (and starts) you know what the problem was. If it makes no difference, you need to look elsewhere.

 

The slow speed of turnover was due to the alternator belt being too tight, I've removed the belt for the moment and it turns over normally (I think Becky said this earlier in the thread).

 

In glow plug news - I'm still hunting

 

HMI Engines have given me the Isuzu part number : 5-51410040-3

 

and told me to contact Calder Valley Marine who are currently trying to source them.

 

 

Nathan

[johnjo]

The slow speed of turnover was due to the alternator belt being too tight, I've removed the belt for the moment and it turns over normally (I think Becky said this earlier in the thread).

 

In glow plug news - I'm still hunting

 

HMI Engines have given me the Isuzu part number : 5-51410040-3

 

and told me to contact Calder Valley Marine who are currently trying to source them.

 

 

Nathan

 

Hi Becky & Nathan,

 

Tim says that they [9-82511978-0] are listed by many suppliers but none has them in stock at the moment as they seem not to be for vehicles sold in this country, X equivalent are NGK 6425, Delphi HDS249 & Bosch 0250202011, he's got in touch with the main Bosch supplier who are going to ring him back as to whether they can get them, he's also put out feelers with other suppliers he deals with on the off chance they may have got some gathering dust somewhere.

I'll let you know if and when he succeeds. If he does I'm quite happy to get them sent direct to you, we'll sort out addresses and payment later, [if & when].

 

He thinks they'll be about £7 each [trade]

 

The equivalent No:s Tim got from the x check list using the part No: you gave, see your post yesterday, [9-82511978-0], don't coincide with the equivalents that you thought they might be?

I'm more inclined to go with his equivalents, can you check please.

 

Just checked with Tim about 'HMI Engines have given me the Isuzu part number : 5-51410040-3' and it doesn't come up at all!

 

Cheers

John

Edited February 17, 2009 by johnjo

[BeckyJC]

Right, replacement glow plugs arrived, they fitted, but the bu**er still won't start.

 

We've been trying different things for months now, and there are so many variables involved that this mission has become impossible. Even if we did manage to get my engine running again, it would still be on the small side for my boat, and I am pretty sure that it doesn't have the most glowing of maintenance histories so I'm going to cut my losses and try and find a reconditioned engine.

 

Spoke to Lee at Thorne boat services this morning, and he is coming out tomorrow morning to have a look / measure up.

 

It's not going to be cheap, but I think at this point it makes sense. I can continue pouring time and money into it, or I can cut my losses and shell out for a known good engine which I can then maintain properly myself (as I no longer trust ANYONE else with this responsibility).

 

So, if anyone knows of any decent reconditioned engines for sale, please shout! Recomendations of what to go for / avoid also very welcome. Currently thinking Beta Marine maybe? Not sure what else would fit in same space as Isuzu 3kc1 without needing big modifications to my engine bay?

 

Cheers,

Becky

[chris w]

Right, replacement glow plugs arrived, they fitted, but the bu**er still won't start.

 

Cheers,

Becky

Several of us, with more specialised electrical knowledge, were telling you all along that the tests for the glowplug integrity you did were meaningless.......

[BeckyJC]

Several of us, with more specialised electrical knowledge, were telling you all along that the tests for the glowplug integrity you did were meaningless.......

I understand that, but we needed to try EVERYTHING. So many people with specialised knowledge in various areas have told us so many things that they thought were the issue. Everyone who has helped has had different ideas/opinions, and so replacing the glow plugs (£21 for a new set) had to be worth a try, as our friend with experience of industral diesel engines suspected that they were the issue.

 

I still don't understand how the glow plug test was completely meaningless - if we were getting a reading from one, but not the other two, then surely that means that SOMETHING was wrong there. Surely they should all behave in the same way?

 

Anyway, we've now proven that it's not the glow plugs that are the problem....if only we knew where the issue actually was.

 

B

[Sir Nibble]

Anyway, we've now proven that it's not the glow plugs that are the problem....if only we knew where the issue actually was.

 

B

Done that earth test have you?

[alan_fincher]

Done that earth test have you?

Becky,

 

Before you get involved in replacement engines, make sure you have followed all the advice of those who really know their subject.

 

I don't think you've exhausted all avenues yet, unless you have done tests you've not reported back on.

 

Alan

[Sir Nibble]

Becky,

 

Before you get involved in replacement engines, make sure you have followed all the advice of those who really know their subject.

 

Alan

I agree Alan, the difficulty is sorting the wheat from the chaff tho' isn't it. How can you tell an experienced competant engineer from a well meaning dullard with a copy of "The ladybird book of diesel engines"?

[smileypete]

Right, replacement glow plugs arrived, they fitted, but the bu**er still won't start.

 

Hi Becky,

 

The next* step I would take is to measure the voltage between glo-plug and cylinder head, for each glo plug, while the engine is cranking (emphasis added).

 

If you could post what these readings are that would be most helpful. This will help tell if the new glo-plugs are getting enough voltage across them to work properly.

 

*not the only step, but the one needed to eliminate the glo-plug wiring as being a possible problem.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited February 23, 2009 by smileypete

[BeckyJC]

I agree Alan, the difficulty is sorting the wheat from the chaff tho' isn't it. How can you tell an experienced competant engineer from a well meaning dullard with a copy of "The ladybird book of diesel engines"?

Exactly! And it's practically impossible to know who is right. Got plenty of people helping (which is really appreciated) but they are all telling me different things, and I have to draw a line somewhere and stop chucking money into a dead engine.

[alan_fincher]

Exactly! And it's practically impossible to know who is right. Got plenty of people helping (which is really appreciated) but they are all telling me different things, and I have to draw a line somewhere and stop chucking money into a dead engine.

I have never seen Sir Nibble get anything wrong on boat electrics yet on this forum, (although it's possible I missed some duff advice, of course! )

 

If he is suggesting certain tests, (which may find a fault, but if they do not, will at least rule some things out), then if it were me, I'd be doing those tests. Particularly if the alternative is a replacement engine.

 

I've not reread the thread, but I don't think his recommendations would cost anything to try out, would they ?

 

I agree not all advice is good advice, but I've been on the forum long enough to be able to tell you who is usually on the money, and who is not! If you ignore everybody else, at least listen to the professional in automotive and marine electrics, who is giving his advice for nothing.

 

Alan

[chris w]

I understand that, but we needed to try EVERYTHING.

B

No... you need to TEST everything.

 

But if you do a meaningless test then it has no value. The problem might well have been the glowplugs but YOUR tests were not electrically rigorous. ie: it didn't give you information one way or the other. It may STILL be the glowplugs.... how have you ascertained that CURRENT is actually flowing through them all as opposed to their just being a voltage on them? What is the value of that current?

 

As Sir Nibble suggests, have you carried out the earth test he advocated?

 

Buying a replacement engine is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. There is a reason why the engine is not starting, it's just a question of doing the correct and logical engineering tests. If the engine is getting the right amount of fuel and air, and the glow plugs are glowing and the starter battery and starter are turning it over fast enough, the engine will start. It doesn't have a choice in these things!!!

 

Chris

[smileypete]

Exactly! And it's practically impossible to know who is right. Got plenty of people helping (which is really appreciated) but they are all telling me different things, and I have to draw a line somewhere and stop chucking money into a dead engine.

 

What's stopping you from doing the test I posted earlier in post #91? I think Sir Nibble might agree it's well worth doing.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited February 23, 2009 by smileypete

[cornet]

The next* step I would take is to measure the voltage between glo-plug and cylinder head, for each glo plug, while the engine is cranking (emphasis added).

 

We have done this and got ~11.5 V across each glow plug. We also connected the glow plugs directly onto the leisure batteries to make sure they had enough enough power. Still no joy.

 

The engine is turning over as we would expect but still refuses to fire.

 

We've had numerous people look at the engine and not getting anywhere other than sinking more and more money into it and spending many weekends trying to get it working.

 

Here are a few other reasons the decision has been made to change the engine:

 

* Looking around at other 57ft narrow boats most are fitted with at least a 1.5 and often a 1.7 or 1.8L engine. The boat was extended from 45ft a few years ago (not by Becky) and it still has the original 1L engine.

 

* We have discovered getting parts for this engine is a complete nightmare. I've even talked to someone that worked for Isuzu and he said for the old commercial engines then the part numbering system was completely flawed.

 

* While Becky does have a perm morning now we would like to do a lot of cursing over the Summer and we need to be confident the engine is going to cope with that. All confidence in the current engine has gone.

 

* Its been 3 months, much time has been spent sourcing parts, trying various things and to still not a boat that moves is somewhat soul destroying and is restricting Becky's ability to live on the boat as she would like.

 

 

We thank everyone for their help and input, as part of my job I spend a lot of time on forums and mailing list and its very very rare that you get such a helpful group of people.

 

 

Thorne are coming tomorrow to take a look and give us a quote and we will take it from there.

 

Ideally a common, reconditioned engine would be ideal but we need to look around to see whats avaliable.

 

If anyone can make any recommendations as to what engine, (BMC, Beta Marine, etc...) then please post here.

 

 

Thank you all again for your help.

 

Nathan

Edited February 23, 2009 by cornet

[chris w]

What's stopping you from doing the test I posted earlier in post #91?

 

cheers,

Pete.

The issue with that test Pete, in terms of deducing something from the result, is that all the glowplugs are in parallel. IMHO, it would be better to measure the total current, which should be in the region of 40 amps if they are all glowing OK.

 

Chris

[smileypete]

We have done this and got ~11.5 V across each glow plug. We also connected the glow plugs directly onto the leisure batteries to make sure they had enough enough power. Still no joy.

 

The engine is turning over as we would expect but still refuses to fire.

OK, that sounds good, if you get 11.5V across each of the new glo plugs while the engine is cranking.

 

 

We've had numerous people look at the engine and not getting anywhere other than sinking more and more money into it and spending many weekends trying to get it working.

I reckon a good approach is to:

 

1. List all the different possibilities and suggestions.

2. Get advice/agreement as to the best and most logical order to tackle them

3. Carry them out and record the results.

 

The idea being to cover each aspect of each area (eg ignition, fuel, engine compression) thoroughly, with the most straightforward diagnosis for common problems being done first.

 

If you can then get more help later on, show them the list and results and repeat steps 1-3 with them.

 

 

Still I'd be interested to hear what Thorne do and say.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited February 23, 2009 by smileypete

[Yamanx]

Sorry but if it wont start with easy start it wont matter what the glows plugs are like. If the heads been removed it's probably going to be open valves, either because of timing or crap. Does the injector pump need to be removed during head gasket replacement? If so the injector pump timing needs checking, how is the injector pump driven? Could it be 180 out? Is the stop a cable operated or solenoid operated one I wonder?

 

Diesel engines are usually fairly simple pieces of kit, I'm surprised your mechanic friend couldn't fix it or diagnose it, and the boat yard man either?

 

Is it possible that when it was overheated, enough to blow the head gasket, it siezed? If so there might not be any compression as the rings may have been badly damaged, even laying in the sump.

 

If nothings broken, like crank, pistons, etc. I doubt if its terminal and shouldn't require replacing.

 

Where are you moored? I dont mind coming over to have a look if you're not too far away. I might not be able to get it going, but I'm pretty sure I can tell you why.

[Sir Nibble]

Hi All,

 

When she tries to turn over, there is an intermittent "knocking" noise from the engine - definitely not heard this one before. Am I right in thinking that we should now be checking the timing?

I am not familiar with this particular engine so this may not be relevant, but. Does this motor have a toothed belt to drive the cam? If so then how CERTAIN can you be that it was reassembled spot-dick dead right? One tooth out and pistons meet valves, knocking noise and goodnight vienna! Take out the glow plugs to lose compression and turn the engine gently by hand, if you can feel a slight "catch" as each piston comes to TDC then that may be it. If that is the case then you have either a serious head job to do or it is indeed time for a new motor. If so, it will probably be worth while doing the job if only to turn a mud weight into a 2nd hand engine with some resale value.