Heating system - which?

[robkg]

I asked about a room stat on a Webasto and was rather emphatically told that it will knacker the heater as it will mean that the heater will keep on being turned on or off at frequent intervals. That makes complete sense to me. Are you sure about getting that information from an authorised main dealer?

 

I talked to the Webasto rep at the London Boat Show and asked him about red diesel. His view was that it is fine when it leaves the refinery. Again that makes sense, we have extra filters fitted on our diesel line to the webasto and have to say whilst it did coke up recently it has otherwise run really well with none of the problems that an unfiltered Mikuni had on a previous share boat.

 

--

Richard

http://indigodream.wordpress.com

Hi Richard,

 

The view that the Webasto heater should not be run on half heat (2.5kW) for extended periods of time

(and therefore the arrangement described in my previous post being recommended), was provided by a main distributor in the UK although not selling into the canal market.

I prefer not to name them in case I cause them any difficulties with Webasto as they were the only party that behaved reasonably and honourably during my sorry saga of Webasto ownership.

Incidentally they also said that in their view the Thermotop C units were not suitable for use on red diesel but the air heaters definitely were.

 

Your comment about red diesel being OK when it leaves the refinery illustates my point exactly.

Whilst it may hold some truth, how many boat owners fill their tanks at the refinery? The units should be suitable to run on the diesel sold by boatyards, marinas etc., or not sold at all!

If the solution is to fit extra filters then why are extra filters not supplied with the units when they are sold?

 

I personally think that what you were told was a smoke screen to blame the fuel quality, rather than the inadequacies of the heaters to cope with red diesel.

In my case I was able to trace the supply of red diesel that the heater had been run on from new. This was from a nationwide distributor and had only been stored in a clean tank for short periods of time.

So I strongly refute the view that the heaters only give problems when run on fuel from "dodgy" sources.

 

Lastly you say that your heater has coked up recently. After how many running hours since last service was this?

Edited February 6, 2009 by robkg

[Roger Gunkel]

Hi Richard,

 

The view that the Webasto heater should not be run on half heat (2.5kW) for extended periods of time

(and therefore the arrangement described in my previous post being recommended), was provided by a main distributor in the UK although not selling into the canal market.

I prefer not to name them in case I cause them any difficulties with Webasto as they were the only party that behaved reasonably and honourably during my sorry saga of Webasto ownership.

Incidentally they also said that in their view the Thermotop C units were not suitable for use on red diesel but the air heaters definitely were.

 

Your comment about red diesel being OK when it leaves the refinery illustates my point exactly.

Whilst it may hold some truth, how many boat owners fill their tanks at the refinery? The units should be suitable to run on the diesel sold by boatyards, marinas etc., or not sold at all!

If the solution is to fit extra filters then why are extra filters not supplied with the units when they are sold?

 

I personally think that what you were told was a smoke screen to blame the fuel quality, rather than the inadequacies of the heaters to cope with red diesel.

In my case I was able to trace the supply of red diesel that the heater had been run on from new. This was from a nationwide distributor and had only been stored in a clean tank for short periods of time.

So I strongly refute the view that the heaters only give problems when run on fuel from "dodgy" sources.

 

Lastly you say that your heater has coked up recently. After how many running hours since last service was this?

 

The line about red diesel being fine when it leaves the refinery is total and utter Bo***cks. Red diesel has been shown quite clearly to have higher sulphur content and lower cetane rating, which promotes quicker carbon build up and inefficient running. The exception to this is the recent Low Sulphur red diesel, which is not generally available on the waterways. There are marinas who would be prepared to sue at the suggestion that their fuel is anything less than best quality. Furthermore, may I refer back once again to Paul Sylvan's emphatic and well publicised court victory which showed quite clearly that his Webasto Thermotop C was 'Unfit for Purpose' when run on red diesel. He won full reparations and costs with no restrictions on publicity. As far as I am aware' there has been no public comment on this from Webasto, but representatives are still telling the same lies about fuel.

 

If the emoloyee of Webasto was telling you otherwise then he does not know what he is talking about and may be entering into doubtful legal territory to make such statements.

 

With very thorough and careful monitoring and low hours servicing it is possible keep these heaters and similar types running on red diesel, but they are designed to run on full road diesel and I would suggest that is the only reliable way to use them. They are also not suitable for liveaboard 24/7 heating, as the manufacturers will tell you if questioned.

 

Roger

Edited February 6, 2009 by Roger Gunkel

[LEO]

I’m a great fan of Refleks heaters. One advantage that no one has mentioned, is that the body of the heater gives out very little radiant heat. This means that the surrounding woodwork doesn’t heat up as it does round a solid fuel fire. Recent events have shown the dangers of fire from stoves placed too near bulkheads, especially if the insulation breaks down. When a Refleks is only a few inches away, the wall is barely warm. So very good when space is tight. The manufacturer’s instructions recommend a distance of 12” from an uninsulated bulkhead, less if insulated.

 

Wise words, My Kabola has been running happily on the red stuff for 2 weeks non stop, heat, plus hot water, no problems. I am amazed at the problems read on some posts - keep things simple, makes life happy.

 

Leo.

 

Snow bound on the Tring Summit, hope weather improves for the Southern Banter......

[RichardN]

Hi Richard,

 

The view that the Webasto heater should not be run on half heat (2.5kW) for extended periods of time

(and therefore the arrangement described in my previous post being recommended), was provided by a main distributor in the UK although not selling into the canal market.

I prefer not to name them in case I cause them any difficulties with Webasto as they were the only party that behaved reasonably and honourably during my sorry saga of Webasto ownership.

Incidentally they also said that in their view the Thermotop C units were not suitable for use on red diesel but the air heaters definitely were.

 

Your comment about red diesel being OK when it leaves the refinery illustates my point exactly.

Whilst it may hold some truth, how many boat owners fill their tanks at the refinery? The units should be suitable to run on the diesel sold by boatyards, marinas etc., or not sold at all!

If the solution is to fit extra filters then why are extra filters not supplied with the units when they are sold?

 

I personally think that what you were told was a smoke screen to blame the fuel quality, rather than the inadequacies of the heaters to cope with red diesel.

In my case I was able to trace the supply of red diesel that the heater had been run on from new. This was from a nationwide distributor and had only been stored in a clean tank for short periods of time.

So I strongly refute the view that the heaters only give problems when run on fuel from "dodgy" sources.

 

Lastly you say that your heater has coked up recently. After how many running hours since last service was this?

 

Hi

 

I did not say anything about running on half heat - I can see the logic there but I do not think that the way to achieve it is by having a room stat. From what I understand that could knacker someone's heater, hence my post.

 

I suspect that all the diesel heater manufacturers don't say anything about filters in their installation instructions. I know Webasto don't and I have even had a Webasto service agent recommend that they they remove our filters. I don't understand that - I would not run a modern diesel engine without a filter. Having had loads of problems in the past with water in diesel, we had agglomerators and sedimentors fitted into our current boat, my thanks to Tony Brooks there.

 

Our heater coked up after 1000 odd hours running. I am told that ideally you should let your webasto get good and hot before turning it off - so a link there to your half heat logic. To get it good and hot, the Webasto guy suggested running it for at least 2 hours. In our ignorance we ran it a lot for exactly 1 hour recently. Issues only started after a period of 1 hour running so I am thinking slap wrist.

 

Roger: I have read most of what you have written about Webasto heaters.

 

--

Richard

[Billypownall]

If you want a Webasto/Erberspacher i'd concided getting a separate Kerosene tank fitted. The bloke who fitted mine said he wouldn't recommend fitting one for frequent use otherwise. The tank for my Webasto is about 80ltrs and was fitted after the boat had been built and wasn't too difficult really. I've only had mine about 6 months, but my dad knows someone who's being running his erberspacher on kerosene for several years without a problem.

Rick

Is kerosene the same as parafin ? Can either be mixed with red diesel. It seems to me from my past experience and reading the present and previous posts that Webasto and Ebespacher are both trouble on red diesel, I have a separate fuel tank for our Webasto and would like to start topping it up with kerosene or parafin. Have I got to empty the tank of red first?

[Gary Peacock]

Is kerosene the same as parafin ? Can either be mixed with red diesel. It seems to me from my past experience and reading the present and previous posts that Webasto and Ebespacher are both trouble on red diesel, I have a separate fuel tank for our Webasto and would like to start topping it up with kerosene or parafin. Have I got to empty the tank of red first?

 

In simple terms they are the same, mixing with red is exactly what we used to do to improve Eberspachers performance so eventually you will be running on 100%.

[robkg]

Hi

 

I did not say anything about running on half heat - I can see the logic there but I do not think that the way to achieve it is by having a room stat. From what I understand that could knacker someone's heater, hence my post.

 

I suspect that all the diesel heater manufacturers don't say anything about filters in their installation instructions. I know Webasto don't and I have even had a Webasto service agent recommend that they they remove our filters. I don't understand that - I would not run a modern diesel engine without a filter. Having had loads of problems in the past with water in diesel, we had agglomerators and sedimentors fitted into our current boat, my thanks to Tony Brooks there.

 

Our heater coked up after 1000 odd hours running. I am told that ideally you should let your webasto get good and hot before turning it off - so a link there to your half heat logic. To get it good and hot, the Webasto guy suggested running it for at least 2 hours. In our ignorance we ran it a lot for exactly 1 hour recently. Issues only started after a period of 1 hour running so I am thinking slap wrist.

 

Roger: I have read most of what you have written about Webasto heaters.

 

--

Richard

Hi Richard,

 

The bottom line is that the Webasto Thermotop C is not suitable for heating a narrowboat when running on red diesel.

Paul Sylvan had his case proved in court.

I have received a full refund plus compensation from a main dealer after settling in court three years after purchasing the unit.

 

Why are you "thinking slap wrist"? Have you lost sight of what you bought the heater for in the first place?

To you and everyone else scrabbling about to work out under what conditions you may get some degree of use out of these:

 

YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO

 

If you want your heating on for one hour why should you have to run it for two?

If you want your heating on for 24 hours per day why should you have to spend hundreds of pounds in servicing costs to do so?

If you want to run it on red after it was sold to you as suitable for red, why should you be contemplating secondary tanks for alternative fuels?

 

Why do I get the impression that many of you are prepared to live with the inadequacies rather than confront the manufacturers/dealers?

[Roger Gunkel]

To you and everyone else scrabbling about to work out under what conditions you may get some degree of use out of these:

 

YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO

 

If you want your heating on for one hour why should you have to run it for two?

If you want your heating on for 24 hours per day why should you have to spend hundreds of pounds in servicing costs to do so?

If you want to run it on red after it was sold to you as suitable for red, why should you be contemplating secondary tanks for alternative fuels?

 

Why do I get the impression that many of you are prepared to live with the inadequacies rather than confront the manufacturers/dealers?

 

 

May I lay down and kiss your feet!!!! Someone else prepared to put their head above the parapet and not accept the bullsh*t put out by manufacturers and suppliers !!

 

Roger

[RichardN]

Hi Richard,

 

The bottom line is that the Webasto Thermotop C is not suitable for heating a narrowboat when running on red diesel.

Paul Sylvan had his case proved in court.

I have received a full refund plus compensation from a main dealer after settling in court three years after purchasing the unit.

 

Why are you "thinking slap wrist"? Have you lost sight of what you bought the heater for in the first place?

To you and everyone else scrabbling about to work out under what conditions you may get some degree of use out of these:

 

YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO

 

If you want your heating on for one hour why should you have to run it for two?

If you want your heating on for 24 hours per day why should you have to spend hundreds of pounds in servicing costs to do so?

If you want to run it on red after it was sold to you as suitable for red, why should you be contemplating secondary tanks for alternative fuels?

 

Why do I get the impression that many of you are prepared to live with the inadequacies rather than confront the manufacturers/dealers?

 

The reason I originally posted and the point you seem to be missing is that I think your advice to have a room stat is very wrong. Simple point, nothing to do with alternative fuels, secondary tanks, court cases. *sigh*

[Roger Gunkel]

The reason I originally posted and the point you seem to be missing is that I think your advice to have a room stat is very wrong. Simple point, nothing to do with alternative fuels, secondary tanks, court cases. *sigh*

 

Your point about room stats is I think a very valid one and one which I agree with.

 

The point that I think you may be missing yourself though, is that rooms stats are actually nothing to do with the original post at all, which is about 'Which sort of heating system'. So various comments about suitability of fuels, tanks etc with different types of heater are very much in the interests of the OP. These sorts of discussion will always take diversions, but there is no need to sigh as all points including your own are relevant in their own way. (in my opinion)

 

Roger

Edited February 7, 2009 by Roger Gunkel

[Mac49]

Hi Richard,

 

The bottom line is that the Webasto Thermotop C is not suitable for heating a narrowboat when running on red diesel.

Paul Sylvan had his case proved in court.

I have received a full refund plus compensation from a main dealer after settling in court three years after purchasing the unit.

 

Why are you "thinking slap wrist"? Have you lost sight of what you bought the heater for in the first place?

To you and everyone else scrabbling about to work out under what conditions you may get some degree of use out of these:

 

YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO

 

If you want your heating on for one hour why should you have to run it for two?

If you want your heating on for 24 hours per day why should you have to spend hundreds of pounds in servicing costs to do so?

If you want to run it on red after it was sold to you as suitable for red, why should you be contemplating secondary tanks for alternative fuels?

 

Why do I get the impression that many of you are prepared to live with the inadequacies rather than confront the manufacturers/dealers?

 

 

I totally agree that these units shouldn't be sold as suitable for running on the fuel generally available on the canals (red) and be fitted as such to boats by boat builders if they're not suitable, but I don't see a problem in buying one being aware of the limitations/faults and working round them. I became aware of the problems with running off red diesel from the information on this forum and from the advice of the bloke who fitted my webasto. Mine's used as a secondary heat source, I use solid fuel when i'm in, however I wanted something that could be set to come on with a timer also (having said that the bloke I mentioned in my earlier post uses his erberspacher on kerosene as his main heat source). Mine runs off kerosene too, which i'm told pretty much illiminates the coking problems (maybe avoiding the problems of running for just 1 hour if this is related?), time will tell . I think the difference is my system was sold to me as unsuitable for red despite what the manufacturer may say.

I would have thought for what it would cost a boat builder to add a separate fuel tank to a shell it would avoid a lot of problems for them, especially if the knew the buyer was going to be a liveaboard. As I said earlier, i've only had mine about 6 months so on the other hand problems could just be around the corner...!

Rick

[Gary Peacock]

I would have thought for what it would cost a boat builder to add a separate fuel tank to a shell it would avoid a lot of problems for them, especially if the knew the buyer was going to be a liveaboard. As I said earlier, i've only had mine about 6 months so on the other hand problems could just be around the corner...!

Rick

 

That's exactly what we have being doing for the last six years.

 

Boatbuilders were well aware of the red issues even back then.

[Mac49]

That's exactly what we have being doing for the last six years.

 

Boatbuilders were well aware of the red issues even back then.

 

Sorry Gary, I perhaps should have said all boatbuilder that fit webasto/erberspacher systems, not just the ones that already do !

I suppose it's like in all things these days (household electrical stuff springs to mine), there's those who want to do a job right first time, and those that weight up how many will come back faulty before the guarantee runs out .If it still works out cheaper to replace a few, don't fix the problem. It just seems there's more of the later these days.

Rick

[KevTheWelder]

Re seperate diesel tanks for heating/propulsion.every boat I've designed&built,I've done so with a seperately built,removable tank.Many plus points in doing this in my opinion,one of which being that if any future owner needed two seperate tanks,it could be easily removed to make way for necessary changes.

[Mac49]

Re seperate diesel tanks for heating/propulsion.every boat I've designed&built,I've done so with a seperately built,removable tank.Many plus points in doing this in my opinion,one of which being that if any future owner needed two seperate tanks,it could be easily removed to make way for necessary changes.

 

That's how mine's done, I don't remember when I was looking for my shell it being mentioned as an option when I was looking round crick, i've no doubt they would have done it if asked , but plenty of builders were offering a webasto as an addition to your sailaway on their price list. This was about 4 years ago now and things may be different now (also I wasn't looking at the expensive end of the market)

Rick

[robkg]

The reason I originally posted and the point you seem to be missing is that I think your advice to have a room stat is very wrong. Simple point, nothing to do with alternative fuels, secondary tanks, court cases. *sigh*

Hi Richard,

I'm sorry if I appear to have missed your point. The advice to use over capacity rads and a room stat did not originate from me,

although the principle of keeping the unit working at full heat (flat out) does make some sense to me.

My point is that whether or not a room stat is good, bad or irrelevent to the performance of the heater,

it should not have to be the customer who has to try to work this out.

 

If the installation and operation manuals state:

"Do not control this heater with a remote thermostat as this will cause premature coking up of the burner."

or alternatively

"This heater should always be controlled using a remote thermostat to ensure that it does not run at half power

for extended periods of time as this will cause premature coking up of the burner"

 

Then I would have some tolerance of premature coking should the advice not be followed.

 

In my case, no such advice was given by either the manufacturer or distributor, just an assurance that it would give many trouble free years service running on red diesel.

It did not!