Narrowboats

[Gary Peacock]

I attended a seminar a couple of weeks ago attended by Representatives of quite a few narrowboat builders, these things tend to be very buoyant affairs with talk of large order books and being rushed of their feet.

 

This year things seemed a bit different quite a few people expressed concerns that the narrowboat market seems to be reaching saturation point and that fierce competition from some quarters driving prices down while demanding higher specifications are making business hardly viable. There was much talk about changes of direction to broad beams and the new magical cash cow the Dutch Barge.

 

So are the happy days for the narrowboat builders drawing to an end?

And are the waterways soon to be filled with mases of live aboard broad boats in all there varied forms?

 

It was estimated that around 80 or 90 narrowboats are produced a month surely that number could never be sustainable if not only due to moorings available on the system.

 

Makes you think doesn't it?

 

Gary

[bottle]

Could be going the way of the caravan industry a few years ago.

 

Less and less builders, less choice.

 

Small companys taken over by the larger ones (less compitition) worse thing that can happen, I do hope not.

[NB Willawaw]

As you might know, I work in the commercial deep sea marine industry.

If I may draw a parallel for a moment, a similar thing happened with commercial ships and I'm not talking supertankers here - I'm talking about small ships like inter-island ferries, fishery protection ships and buoy maintenance tenders etc.

 

There is only a certain amount of demand in the UK for these vessels and the 5 or 6 yards who built these type of ships came under competition from the likes of Poland. The owners started voting with their feet for lower prices and now one or two yards in Poland are cleaning up. There is only one or possibly two yards left in the whole of the UK who can build these ships and they are shaky. One, called Fergusons on the Clyde have just lost the order for some new ferries for Caledonian MacBrayne, the Scottish domestic ferry operator and for the Northern Lighthouse Board of Edinburgh, who need a new ship to service the lighthouses, etc.

Now what is that all about ?

 

Ships, narrowboats, wide beams, etc all have one thing in common. They are made of steel and a lot of the cost buildup is labour.

 

If a country like Poland offers much cheaper labour, which at present, it can, a certain number of British boat owners will buy from Poland if they think they get better value for money.

 

It starts slowly, some yards go under and then the tradesmen start wandering off to more lucrative industries or getting retrained. The next thing is, we don't have the necessary skills to build boats.

 

Although, at the other end of the spectrum, when Cunard wanted to build the new Queen Mary 2, Harland & Wolff who built the great White Star liners and many crack liners (like the Titanic - no pun intended) tendered, but it was decided they didn't have the necessary skills anymore, so the order went to France.

 

Narrowboats are slightly different in that they nearly all have to end up in UK waterways and theres nothing like being able to watch your boat taking shape in the flesh. Anybody who has had a boat built will know how much dialogue has to take place to avoid little misunderstandings about the fine detail.

This is the strength of home grown boats.

The areas that are most at risk are high spec production line boats and basic level sailaways, where the supervision isn't quite so important.

 

Narrowboats are an almost exclusive British tradition and a community orientated pastime.

For what its worth, I would encourage the British Maritime Trade organisations to start a buy British campaign NOW. Otherwise, you will be watching your next boat being built on a webcam in Gdansk and watch it rolling off the P+O ferry at Dover.

 

IMHO the British can be very apathetic. We all watch the news and tut when we hear of thousands being laid off at a British factory, but we go out and jump in our foreign built car and don't make the connection. Take a leaf out of the book of the Germans and Japanese. Demand quality, but buy your next boat from a home builder.

 

Mark

Edited May 22, 2005 by NB Willawaw

[Bernie]

I don't think it is just the case of the bubble bursting, perhaps too many builders chasing the same customers, the cost of many boats, the cost of mooring fees and licences increasing all the time, plus the upkeep. I do know that if we were just starting out there would be no way we could afford to have our own boat. Changing to Dutch barges only won't help the industry either I don't think, you are then restricted to the broad canals and rivers.

[gaggle]

bring this man a beer,get one for yourself and listen to him.polish boats,i am sure i read i could have trip over too see whats on offer,free ,but the cost added in wth boat cost.it does entail boat delivered by p&o via dover.it is not a case of this could happen it is a case of this is happening and it is happening now.i cant think if it was a site or a magazine where i read this article,if i do i will post details.one thing if they do flood the market british made may become the rare and sought after boat.

[Alan]

Picked up this link from Waterways World

 

http://www.aqualinemarine.co.uk/waterways_world.htm

[gaggle]

its like i said it is already the reality.no doubt cheap labour costs but in the end run will it lead to cheaper prices to customers or more profit for the builder.they never said lets go to poland so we can make less profit for ourselves,and by the way the company you posted is not the only one.i seem to remember finding several when i looked,the one you have posted is yet another i have seen.alex

[howardang]

As you might know, I work in the commercial deep sea marine industry.

If I may draw a parallel for a moment, a similar thing happened with commercial ships and I'm not talking supertankers here - I'm talking about small ships like inter-island ferries, fishery protection ships and buoy maintenance tenders etc.

 

There is only a certain amount of demand in the UK for these vessels and the 5 or 6 yards who built these type of ships came under competition from the likes of Poland. The owners started voting with their feet for lower prices and now one or two yards in Poland are cleaning up. There is only one or possibly two yards left in the whole of the UK who can build these ships and they are shaky. One, called Fergusons on the Clyde have just lost the order for some new ferries for Caledonian MacBrayne, the Scottish domestic ferry operator and for the Northern Lighthouse Board of Edinburgh, who need a new ship to service the lighthouses, etc.

Now what is that all about ?

 

Ships, narrowboats, wide beams, etc all have one thing in common. They are made of steel and a lot of the cost buildup is labour.

 

If a country like Poland offers much cheaper labour, which at present, it can, a certain number of British boat owners will buy from Poland if they think they get better value for money.

 

It starts slowly, some yards go under and then the tradesmen start wandering off to more lucrative industries or getting retrained. The next thing is, we don't have the necessary skills to build boats.

 

Although, at the other end of the spectrum, when Cunard wanted to build the new Queen Mary 2, Harland & Wolff who built the great White Star liners and many crack liners (like the Titanic - no pun intended) tendered, but it was decided they didn't have the necessary skills anymore, so the order went to France.

 

Narrowboats are slightly different in that they nearly all have to end up in UK waterways and theres nothing like being able to watch your boat taking shape in the flesh. Anybody who has had a boat built will know how much dialogue has to take place to avoid little misunderstandings about the fine detail.

This is the strength of home grown boats.

The areas that are most at risk are high spec production line boats and basic level sailaways, where the supervision isn't quite so important.

 

Narrowboats are an almost exclusive British tradition and a community orientated pastime.

For what its worth, I would encourage the British Maritime Trade organisations to start a buy British campaign NOW. Otherwise, you will be watching your next boat being built on a webcam in Gdansk and watch it rolling off the P+O ferry at Dover.

 

IMHO the British can be very apathetic. We all watch the news and tut when we hear of thousands being laid off at a British factory, but we go out and jump in our foreign built car and don't make the connection. Take a leaf out of the book of the Germans and Japanese. Demand quality, but buy your next boat from a home builder. 

 

Mark

20385[/snapback]

 

Mark, may I be nosey and ask in what aspect of the commercial deep sea marine industry are you involved? I am also involved in the same industry, and I must say I share your views. The comments about the British apathy can also be directed at British shipowners and shipbuilders, who have allowed an awful lot of chickens to come home to roost over the last decade or so. We are now in the situation, for example, where we couldn't now put togther a task force like we did for the Falklands without using foreign flag vessels, and even if we did use one or two of the few remaining British ships they would almost certainly wouldn't be crewed by British seafarers because they are such a dwindling breed!

 

With regard to narrowboats, I think one aspect which is beginning to happen, and it happened in the yachting/motorboat side of the industry, is the concentration on increasing luxury for new vessels with relatively few "starter boats" being built (or at least widely publicised. Consequently, the average person cannot contemplate the purchase of a new boat and, like me, looks instead at the shared ownership route where high quality (and therefore high cost) boats are affordable, making the matter worse for outright purchasers.

 

I remember that this was a matter of some concern with the BMIF (now BMI) a few years ago when I was then a council member, and the feeling shared by some members then was that in a leisure market where there are so many interests which are competing for your hard earned cash the person who will succeed will be the one who gives the public what they want. I think the time may be coming when narrowboat builders may have to consider this aspect to stay in business.

 

Regards

 

Howard Anguish

[NB Willawaw]

I am an ex radio officer and work in the marine electronics field (navigation and communications equipment).

 

Mark

 

Mark, may I be nosey and ask in what aspect of the commercial deep sea marine industry are you involved? I am also involved in the same industry, and I must say I share your views.

20401[/snapback]

[Richard Fairhurst]

So are the happy days for the narrowboat builders drawing to an end?

And are the waterways soon to be filled with mases of live aboard broad boats in all there varied forms?

 

It was estimated that around 80 or 90 narrowboats are produced a month surely that number could never be sustainable if not only due to moorings available on the system.

20381[/snapback]

 

I think the market is "correcting itself" a little at the moment.

 

For the past five to ten years, the majority of inland boats sold have been build-to-order narrowboats with increasingly high specs. It's not realistic for this trajectory to continue ad infinitum. What we're seeing now is largely a return to the old patterns of boat choice.

 

Not everything will be narrowbeam. Production-line models are definitely making a comeback - many people just want to get afloat, without having to pay big bucks and wait for the next build slot. And consequently, there'll be much wider variation in prices. Boat-builders will have to adjust to this, but I think many are doing so.

 

As for increasing mooring supply (which is a big BW priority at the moment), my feeling is that we need to make better use of the waterspace that's already out there. Surely Braunston/Napton isn't the only area with several cruising possibilities and good motorway links.

 

Richard

(personal opinions only!)

[gaggle]

I think the market is "correcting itself" a little at the moment.

 

For the past five to ten years, the majority of inland boats sold have been build-to-order narrowboats with increasingly high specs. It's not realistic for this trajectory to continue ad infinitum. What we're seeing now is largely a return to the old patterns of boat choice.

 

Not everything will be narrowbeam. Production-line models are definitely making a comeback - many people just want to get afloat, without having to pay big bucks and wait for the next build slot. And consequently, there'll be much wider variation in prices. Boat-builders will have to adjust to this, but I think many are doing so.

 

As for increasing mooring supply (which is a big BW priority at the moment), my feeling is that we need to make better use of the waterspace that's already out there. Surely Braunston/Napton isn't the only area with several cruising possibilities and good motorway links.

 

Richard

(personal opinions only!)

20407[/snapback]

richard .the bit about,its not realistic for the trajectory to continue ad infinitum,that was the veiw about property market and we now have house prices through the clouds not the roof.the money is out there in peoples pockets if they have not got it in their pockets they will get it off the banks.when they order a new boat the specs they want must be better than the last one built.i have myself said £200 thousand for a city centre apartment or buy an apartment"floating" on the cut for a qaurter of that fully fitted.i have heard this many times, even first time buyers priced out of the housing market can afford top spec narrowboats,new build.

so that is why i dont think the bubble has burst just yet.i hope

[howardang]

richard .the bit about,its not realistic for the trajectory to continue ad infinitum,that was the veiw about property market and we now have house prices through the clouds not the roof.the money is out there in peoples pockets if they have not got it in their pockets they will get it off the banks.when they order a new boat the specs they want  must be better than the last one built.i have myself said £200 thousand for a city centre apartment  or buy an apartment"floating" on the cut for a qaurter of that fully fitted.i have heard this  many times, even first time buyers priced out of the housing market can afford top spec narrowboats,new build.

so that is why i dont think the bubble has burst just yet.i hope

20413[/snapback]

 

Hi Gaggle,

 

I'm not sure that the analogy with the house market is a good one - look at the way we have had boom and bust scenarios over the last few years and we are on the verge of a downturn right now. I also don't completely agree with you that if people don't have the money they will borrow it from banks etc. That might have been the case in the recent past but I think we are now definately seeing the signs of people being much more cautious. I gather that you are in the throes of enjoying a new boat, so for your sake and for those who have just made similar large investments I hope the slowdown is short lived. However, I suspect that the boat building industry might be in for a slightly leaner time of it than they have been enjoying over the last years.

 

Regards

 

Howard Anguish

[gaggle]

i have not got the boat yet,the build has started though.i can only say re- downturn that people are borrowing record amounts still.i said in other post that jobs have been lost and people seem jittery but i what i am seeing and hearing is i want it i will get it.this could be different from other cities but at the moment we in liverpool are gearing up for capital of culture and things are really good.the whole city is now classed i think as the biggest building site in the country,house prices have gone through the roof with outside investors fighting,i kid you not to get into property auctions-yippee- to buy any property they could get-yippee again i can now afford a boat.if you want to see what the boat is see www.askalex.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk i dont know if that is in my profile i will put it in now if not. alex

[Curly]

As an avid reader of the 'boats for sale' sections of the waterways press, it always amazes me how many boats there are for sale that are only 1 or 2 years old! Often listed as 'the ideal live aboard or long term crusing boat' it obviously wasn't for somebody. (Is the second hand market becoming flooded?) You have to be suited to living in such a confinded space, yes it looks ideal on a nice sunny summer day but as someone said in a previous thread, it's different when you have to lug a 13kg gas bottle down a muddy tow path every few weeks or move the boat for water in a gale!

[gaggle]

curly,there is no better feeling than standing on crosby beach with the full force of a gale coming at you straight of the irish sea.as for carrying gas bottles take the boat to the bottles before you run out.there may be lots of second hand boats for sale because everyone wants the new one ,custom made.when i decided i wanted a boat i thought of 2nd hand but i know nothing about boats, so i could have been sold a lump of rust.as for living in a confined space you will not know the score unless you actually give it a go for real. anyway i am going to jump in head first as a cc,if i cant hack it i will have to get moorings and use as and when.

[gaggle]

curly,there is no better feeling than standing on crosby beach with the full force of a gale coming at you straight of the irish sea.as for carrying gas bottles take the boat to the bottles before you run out.there may be lots of second hand boats for sale because everyone wants the new one ,custom made.when i decided i wanted a boat i thought of 2nd hand but i know nothing about boats, so i could have been sold a lump of rust.as for living in a confined space you will not know the score unless you actually give it a go for real. anyway i am going to jump in head first as a cc,if i cant hack it i will have to get moorings and use as and when.

[howardang]

curly,there is no better feeling than standing on crosby beach with the full force of a gale coming at you straight of the irish sea.as for carrying gas bottles take the boat to the bottles before you run out.there may be lots of second hand boats for sale because everyone wants the new one ,custom made.when i decided i wanted a boat i thought of 2nd hand but i know nothing about boats, so i could have been sold a lump of rust.as for living in a confined space you will not know the score unless you actually give it a go for real. anyway i am going to jump in head first as a cc,if i cant hack it i will have to get moorings and use as and when.

20525[/snapback]

 

Hi Gaggle, your comment about possibly buying a lump of rust because you say you don't know about anything about boats is a reason why sometimes the services of a surveyor might be useful. I know by one of your previous postings that you don't seem to have much time for them but please remember that there are good and bad in any profession and good advice from a surveyor might just save you grief whether a boat is second hand or new. Just a thought.

 

Regards

 

Howard Anguish

[gaggle]

oh yes granted .sometimes we have no choice but to use them but trusting them is a different matter.a council surveyor i know has saved me time and money on building works,he was always happy to give his advice and time freely, a true gentleman

[gaggle]

i spoke to my builder today sts boats and asked him if he was happy with the response from people who went onboard the showboat at mersey river festival and he replied that he was absolute delighted.the marina who he makes boats for and themselves had done very well re orders. enquiries made which he expects to be followed through are beyond what was expected,so the bubble has not burst then i said, his very large smile says i dont think so

Edited June 14, 2005 by gaggle

[NB Willawaw]

There are some very old and run-down boats on the cut. The manufacture of Narrowboats is one of the few manufacturing industries where there is no built-in obsolescence.

In essence, n.boats rarely wear out. They just become tatty and rusty and are left to fester at some mooring or other. I've lost count of the number of boats that rarely seem to get a visit from the owner. As long as they can still pass a BSS and have a valid BW licence, they are just left. Well, I like to think thats true, but I wonder how many of them are up to date.

If these owners sold or scrapped these boats A) they might get done up by an owner who does appreciate them or B ) the industry might be able to replace them with newer boats.

 

I have no axe to grind on this and am just speaking as I find. I just hate to see unloved boats.

Edited June 15, 2005 by NB Willawaw

[gaggle]

at first i was going to get a boat to refurbish but not knowing enough i felt i had to go for a new build.i bought derelict property to do up and when the property is back in the housing stock with a family living in it it gives you a good buzz knowing you were responsable.i had a stock of seven on the go at one time and the magic of transforming them and learning about all the trades i hope will stand me in good stead.once i am on the cut and can get hands on learning i hope i can get into refurbishment of some derelict boats,i have seen already some boats i would love to have a go at.i imagine as with houses lots of tlc will make them worth a lot more than they can be purchased for and money can be made as well as doing what you enjoy.

[DHutch]

...The manufacture of Narrowboats is one of the few manufacturing industries where there is no built-in obsolescence.

I while i know exactly what mean, it dont beleave that it is the case the most products have built-in obsolecance. Agree, some do, but most dont, its just the technology is moving so fast.

 

- Where as advancments in narrowboat technology is... ... slow moving!

 

 

Daniel

[gaggle]

daniel is just steam boats or steam engines you like,if general steam power twist bernie,s arm for pics from show at haydock.date?soon

[DHutch]

daniel is just steam boats or steam engines you like,if general steam power twist bernie,s arm for pics from show at haydock.date?soon

The what now sorry?

- I know my posts dont always read perfectly, but what does that say again?

Edited June 15, 2005 by dhutch

[Bernie]

Dan, I think he's saying there's a steam fair at Haydock Park soon, in fact it's the 25-26th this month.

Edited June 15, 2005 by Bernie