Engine quandary

[MoominPapa]

Hello all. I've had great fun and learned lots reading the archives of this wonderful forum. Now have a question of my own.

 

I'm currently in the market for a narrowboat and a candidate has come up which is a good fit for all the "must haves" and the "must not haves". The only thing is, it has a Lister FR2, in an engine room, with a manual gearbox and speed wheel.

 

The existence of the engine room is fine: it's useful space, I like the idea of easy, warm, dry access to the motor and the rest of the layout is good.

 

I'm just not sure about the lump. My experience is limited to hireboats with BMCs and PRM gearboxes. Is 18HP enough power for a 60ft boat on a river? Am I going to able to the thing in reverse quickly in an emergency? Will it stop once I do? Will MoominMama be able to get it in and out of gear?

 

Then there's repairs and maintenance. How difficult are these engines to work on? Can I still get spares? At fifty years old there's been enough time to completely wear out even the most bullet-proof engineering, so how do I asses its current state? Will any surveyor be able to tell me sensible things about it, or should I look for a specialist?

 

This may be a great buy, or it may be a disaster, I don't have the experience to judge. Can anyone help?

[Keeping Up]

To add to the list, doers it have electric start? My mates FR3 was a lovely engine but I could NEVER manage to start it (by hand) in cold weather, it needed just too much swinging.

[magnetman]

Canalworld member 'Baldock' (Chris) may be able to help re spares as he works at Marine Engine Services who do Lister stuff. Nice engine is it an FR2M or a plain FR2? i don't know if there's much difference apart from raised hand start gear but they did do marine and stationary versions.

[Timleech]

Hello all. I've had great fun and learned lots reading the archives of this wonderful forum. Now have a question of my own.

 

I'm currently in the market for a narrowboat and a candidate has come up which is a good fit for all the "must haves" and the "must not haves". The only thing is, it has a Lister FR2, in an engine room, with a manual gearbox and speed wheel.

 

The existence of the engine room is fine: it's useful space, I like the idea of easy, warm, dry access to the motor and the rest of the layout is good.

 

I'm just not sure about the lump. My experience is limited to hireboats with BMCs and PRM gearboxes. Is 18HP enough power for a 60ft boat on a river? Am I going to able to the thing in reverse quickly in an emergency? Will it stop once I do? Will MoominMama be able to get it in and out of gear?

 

IF it has reduction gear and a properly matched propellor, 18hp should be more than enough IMO.

If it's been squeezed into a shallow draught boat with an undersize prop, then it's more doubtful and the best answer is to try to arrange a good long test drive, preferably where there's some deep water in which to play.

 

I don't know what the spares situation is for the FR range.

 

Tim

[onthecut]

Hi MP

 

FR2 --- nice, but probably not the pick of the 'classic' Listers. Spares are not too plentiful and are expensive, unless you drop lucky. On the other hand, if it has good oil pressure and compression (does it start easily ?), it will likely do another 50 years of narrowboat work. As Timleech mentions, you definitely want to take it out and give it a thrashing, as far as possible. Depending on how the cooling system is arranged, you should also question the vendor regarding any water loss etc. (closed engine circuit). If it's directly raw water cooled, I'd be a bit concerned about corrosion. If it's ex seaboat, I'd want a look in the water passages, as far as possible.

Overall, if the rest of the boat is what you want, I certainly wouldn't be put off by an FR.

 

Mike.

[MoominPapa]

Thanks for the replies. To answer magnetman and Keeping Up, I'm not completely sure yet, since I'm just going from the brokerage details, but the photo of the engine clearly shows what can only be hand-start gear at cylinder-head height. Does that make it an FR2M for sure? I can just make out the nose of a pre-engaged starter by the side of the flywheel, so I'm fairly confident it has electric start.

 

The installation is skin cooled, but the engine is a lot older than the boat so that says nothing about how the engine was cooled earlier in its life.

 

Are most brokerages happy to let punters take a boat for a run? That's not been my experience so far, but maybe I looked too much like a tyre-kicker.

 

Looks like it's time to arrange a visit......

[carlt]

Thanks for the replies. To answer magnetman and Keeping Up, I'm not completely sure yet, since I'm just going from the brokerage details, but the photo of the engine clearly shows what can only be hand-start gear at cylinder-head height. Does that make it an FR2M for sure? I can just make out the nose of a pre-engaged starter by the side of the flywheel, so I'm fairly confident it has electric start.

 

The installation is skin cooled, but the engine is a lot older than the boat so that says nothing about how the engine was cooled earlier in its life.

 

Are most brokerages happy to let punters take a boat for a run? That's not been my experience so far, but maybe I looked too much like a tyre-kicker.

 

Looks like it's time to arrange a visit......

I wouldn't even consider a boat (or broker) who wouldn't let me take it for a cruise. Maybe if you left the hat at home, and wore some clothes, you might be taken more seriously?

 

the high level hand start, btw, will be a chain driven gear thingy, to make turning the lump over easier. Some have them, some don't.

[onthecut]

Hi MP.

 

Must just second CarlT's point about taking it for the run. You are no doubt looking at spending serious pennies and it is absurd if they prevaricate over a good test run. Doesn't mean you have to drive (although I would want to feel that there wasn't a permanent pull on the rudder); indeed, a good part of a test run should give you time to have a good firkle around the craft and have a good look (and smell) in the engine room. Engine under tray full of s****y oil; weeping fuel joints; rust streaks from leaking water etc., if present, all raise questions about the level of previous care and current condition and offer bargaining leverage.

 

Mike.

[Keeping Up]

I think the other thing that put me off the lovely FR3 in my mate's boat (which was "Pathfinder" incidentally) was that the handbook devoted it's first half-a-dozen pages to "starting the engine". The first line of the instructions was "first remove the 16 bolts that hold the rocker cover in place". Yes that had to be done every morning before starting, followed by the remainder of the 6 pages of instructions. You could rebuild an entire modern engine with less instructions than just starting the FR3. And having memorised the instructions, oiled the valve stems, replaced the rocker cover and its bolts, thrown in the compression levers and thrown out the decompressors, on cold days when the oil was thick I could never get up enough swing to turn it over, throw in the decompressors and throw out the compression levers, before it just stopped and sat there waiting for me to do it all over again.

 

That was the one that we opened up to full throttle through Leicester, only to find that the throttle got stuck wide open. When we tried to pull it out of gear the remote-control linkage fell apart, and we had to dive inside and cut off the fuel supply so we could drift to a halt before hitting the lock-gates!

 

All the same it was a nice engine.

[onthecut]

Hi KeepingUp.

 

I'm afraid your friend was slightly mistaken in his procedure. It does recommend lubricating the valve gear but only for the first time after a rebuild !. The valve gear is pressure fed with oil and requires no further pre - lubing. So MP, the instructions for electric start are this --- 1. Open throttle a bit (the better the engine, the less you will need to). 2. Press starter button. THAT'S IT !! If you have concerns in this area, I will be happy to mail you a scan of the FR instruction book.

 

Mike.

[MoominPapa]

Maybe if you left the hat at home, and wore some clothes, you might be taken more seriously?

Nah, it's the tail that does it. They see a tail dragging along behind, and suddenly they don't want to talk to you anymore....

Hi KeepingUp.I'm afraid your friend was slightly mistaken in his procedure. It does recommend lubricating the valve gear but only for the first time after a rebuild !. The valve gear is pressure fed with oil and requires no further pre - lubing. So MP, the instructions for electric start are this --- 1. Open throttle a bit (the better the engine, the less you will need to). 2. Press starter button. THAT'S IT !! If you have concerns in this area, I will be happy to mail you a scan of the FR instruction book.Mike.

That sounds more realistic. For interest, what's the role of the "compression change-over levers" show here? Are they a starting aid, like a decompressor, or something much more mysterious?

[onthecut]

Hi MP.

 

Nothing mysterious about them at all. They raise the compression ratio for starting (horizontal position) and once the engine is running are returned to the down position. Useful if hand starting, but less so with electric. Incidentally, when you go to see the boat, make sure you tell the broker that you want to hear it start from cold, which is always the acid test for a diesel. Failing which, turn up a couple of hours early. If the unit is anything like it should be, then with the throttle wound open (and certainly if the higher compression setting is chosen) it should fire and be running inside five seconds. Prolonged cranking would not be a good sign.

 

Mike.

[MoominPapa]

OK, experts. Armed with all your good infomation, I went to see the boat today and have a test out. The "story" of the engine rings true to me. It appears to have been well looked after by an competant owner who knows what he's doing, or at least has learnt.

 

I saw the engine start, from cold, on almost the first compression stoke straight to a slow idle. That's good. We did a few miles along the GU and a couple of locks, so I got to try the handling and see how the engine performed under load (very well, just a hint of black smoke from the exhaust, no misfire, a wonderful exhaust note). Oil pressure stayed steady at 32 PSI 'till hot idle, when it dropped to about 20.

 

Inevitably the visit has raised some more questions so I hope I can get some more advice here.

 

The owner said that when he rebuilt the heads, he had repaired the compression change-over valves, but after a year or so, they, had started to leak again, so they had been plugged permanently on the high compression setting. Is that legit, or is the engine beating itself to pieces running high compression all the time?

 

The idle speed hunted a bit, much more so when cold, but a bit even when hot. Is that anything to worry about?

 

One of the injection pumps was visibly leaking diesel. Performance wasn't affected, as far as I could see, but should I worry about oil dilution? The engine has a dry sump and huge oil tank, so there was a lot of lube oil to dilute.

 

The Lister-Blackstone manual box was a bit noisy astern. Gear whine, not unhappy bearing noises. Is that reasonable? Neutral was difficult to find: small movements of the gear lever in either direction started the prop moving slowly. Is that sinister, or to be expected?

 

Oh, and thanks, Mike, for the offer of a copy of the FR book, but the boat comes with a full set, so if I buy, I'll have all the information.

 

Cheers,

 

Simon.

[Timleech]

OK, experts. Armed with all your good infomation, I went to see the boat today and have a test out. The "story" of the engine rings true to me. It appears to have been well looked after by an competant owner who knows what he's doing, or at least has learnt.

 

I saw the engine start, from cold, on almost the first compression stoke straight to a slow idle. That's good. We did a few miles along the GU and a couple of locks, so I got to try the handling and see how the engine performed under load (very well, just a hint of black smoke from the exhaust, no misfire, a wonderful exhaust note). Oil pressure stayed steady at 32 PSI 'till hot idle, when it dropped to about 20.

 

Inevitably the visit has raised some more questions so I hope I can get some more advice here.

 

The owner said that when he rebuilt the heads, he had repaired the compression change-over valves, but after a year or so, they, had started to leak again, so they had been plugged permanently on the high compression setting. Is that legit, or is the engine beating itself to pieces running high compression all the time?

 

Quite a few people run Lister JPs in narrow boats on permanent high compression, largely because that gives a cleaner exhaust, but they are a bigger engine so probably won't be working quite so hard. The JP book suggests high compression below something like, IIRC, 50% load which is easy enough to establish if it's driving a generator, less so with a propulsion unit.

 

They did produce a 'permanent high compression' version of the JP, the JK, but that was fitted with big end bearings in a fancy alloy in place of the standard white metal.

 

Probably with the sort of load factor and average number of hours run in a pleasure NB you'd be fine, but no-one is likely to guarantee that for you

 

Tim

[onthecut]

Hi MP.

 

Tim is spot on with the JP figure for using compression changeover -- Lister say switch at 50% load. With the FR, the facility is nominally just for starting. The entire changeover assembly comprises a removeable set of components and any half decent engineering place should be able to restore correct function to the relevant seatings.

For what it costs, I'd have the pumps refurbished anyway to get shot of the leak ----- if there's air getting into the system somewhere, that may well give you the hunting. The description you give of the gearbox exactly matches how mine behaves; whines in reverse and some 'drag' when it's cold; some fine tinkering to get no rotation. Once warm though, with the oil thinner, the symptom disappears. They are a massively over engineered gearbox; main thing is to ensure forward engagement is correctly 'over centre' and the right force. If it slips for a prolonged period, you can glaze the plates, which is pretty much a full strip down job.

Overall it sound a nice piece of kit to me !

 

Mike.

[soffy]

Hi MP

 

Go for a vintage engine every time they are like a heart beat the slow revs get you out of most tricky situations and cos most vintage engines (that I know anyway) have fairly big props and chop up weeds a treat.