Solenoid problem...

[Janz]

Here are some of the vehicles that the solenoid was fitted to. It may help others track down an original Lucas part. I'm just going to fit a cheapo one because time isn't on my side.

[Tracy D'arth]

9 minutes ago, Janz said:

I did have a look at Cargo, Tracy, the ladt time you suggested them but I'm sure I read that they only only do trade accounts? I'll look now...

They do but if you order through a repairer he will likely sell it to you at cost. You could phone this guy who I find helpful even though he is in Warrington.

 

Bill Travers L A Alternators 01925 815762

[Janz]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

They do but if you order through a repairer he will likely sell it to you at cost. You could phone this guy who I find helpful even though he is in Warrington.

 

Bill Travers L A Alternators 01925 815762

Thanks...👍

[Tony Brooks]

Note - in my last post I typed 3 hole flywheel, it is now corrected to 3 hole starter.

 

I have a feeling that the two hole starter was an inertia one but I might be getting mixed up with Perkins. I have only ever seen one BMC 1.5 with a two hole starter.

 

40 minutes ago, Janz said:

Thanks for the heads up, Tony. The oil filter definitely needs to come off to remove the starter. It's the long type & Mike suggested it may be a non-standard one. When I get back to London I'll take some photos of the set up & also the engine number to confirm the age. The solenoid is partly exposed. It mates to the starter on a 'half moon' & has a rubber pad that sits between it & the starter body to insulate or protect the exposed area. 

 

 

I think your solenoid sits at about 10 o'clock  looking backwards and that makes it a later version. Earlier ones had the solenoid either at the top (12 o'clock) or hanging down at 6 o'clock where the solenoids tended to fill with liquid from the drip tray on badly looked after boats. The 12 o'clock position made it more difficult to get at one of the mounting bolts.

 

The weird shaped rubber pad is just a seal to keep dust etc. out of the pinion area. 

[Tony Brooks]

11 minutes ago, Janz said:

Here are some of the vehicles that the solenoid was fitted to. It may help others track down an original Lucas part. I'm just going to fit a cheapo one because time isn't on my side.

 

I am very unsure about that list, the Austin Taxi had a totally different starter and I can't see it being fitted to a Bedford TK. Just a warning to be careful.

[Janz]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Note - in my last post I typed 3 hole flywheel, it is now corrected to 3 hole starter.

 

I have a feeling that the two hole starter was an inertia one but I might be getting mixed up with Perkins. I have only ever seen one BMC 1.5 with a two hole starter.

 

 

I think your solenoid sits at about 10 o'clock  looking backwards and that makes it a later version. Earlier ones had the solenoid either at the top (12 o'clock) or hanging down at 6 o'clock where the solenoids tended to fill with liquid from the drip tray on badly looked after boats. The 12 o'clock position made it more difficult to get at one of the mounting bolts.

 

The weird shaped rubber pad is just a seal to keep dust etc. out of the pinion area. 

You are correct as usual, Tony. It sits at ten o'clock. Regarding the list... yes, I did cross reference the Morris Oxford one & that looks totally different. 

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Janz said:

You are correct as usual, Tony. It sits at ten o'clock. Regarding the list... yes, I did cross reference the Morris Oxford one & that looks totally different. 

 

Well, it should not, as they used the 1.5D  in the diesel version, the petrol one, by far and away the most common was a totally different inertia starter.

 

I am sure you have a three hole starter now you confirm the solenoid position.

 

Be aware there were two forms of the starter. The earlier ones has a band around the end of the starter body to access the brushes while later ones had a cover that fitted right over the end of the starter. I am not sure if the solenoids are interchangeable. I also think I have seen a few with the solenoid cap retained in place by swaging the metal housing and you would not be able to get inside one of those to clean up the contacts. However most solenoid caps on 1.5s are removable as long as you have a decent sized soldering iron.

[Janz]

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Well, it should not, as they used the 1.5D  in the diesel version, the petrol one, by far and away the most common was a totally different inertia starter.

 

I am sure you have a three hole starter now you confirm the solenoid position.

 

Be aware there were two forms of the starter. The earlier ones has a band around the end of the starter body to access the brushes while later ones had a cover that fitted right over the end of the starter. I am not sure if the solenoids are interchangeable. I also think I have seen a few with the solenoid cap retained in place by swaging the metal housing and you would not be able to get inside one of those to clean up the contacts. However most solenoid caps on 1.5s are removable as long as you have a decent sized soldering iron.

Here are a couple of photos I took for reference. Sorry they don't have the bolt hole configuration. 

[Tracy D'arth]

2 hours ago, Janz said:

Here are a couple of photos I took for reference. Sorry they don't have the bolt hole configuration. 

That cable lug looks to be very poorly.   The cable has been soldered, and the solder allowed to run into the cable making it solid and prone to fracture. It also looks like thick copper wire rather than fine flexible cable.

[Janz]

Good morning peeps. I'm back from the Welsh valleys so I'm going to head down to my boat in a bit & try & do what all of you have suggested. I shall buy a cheap multimeter from Screwfix on the way so you can have some proper results to analyse & as Mike rightly said, it will be better to do that than buy bits I might not need. I spoke to a mate who's clued up about electrical stuff & he also told me it's the only option to diagnose the problem with any success. He also suggested that my issue is likely to be an earthing fault, so I looked through a couple of the threads relating to how boats are grounded to avoid causing corrosion. It's made me think he might be right 'cos something is causing that solenoid to heat up & whilst I don't understand why, I just can't afford to get an electrician. So you guys are my only real hope of getting my engine to run...👍

[Janz]

On 02/03/2022 at 13:16, Tracy D'arth said:

That cable lug looks to be very poorly.   The cable has been soldered, and the solder allowed to run into the cable making it solid and prone to fracture. It also looks like thick copper wire rather than fine flexible cable.

Yeah, I think you may be onto something with that. I know the starter earths to the engine. I'll try eathing the starter body back to the battery before I do anything else. Got some spare jump leads...👍

[Tony Brooks]

As long as the battery negative is connected to the engine with a very thick "starter motor" sized cable I doubt it is an earthing fault.

 

Even less likely is a similar wire runs between the connection on the engine to the metal engine  bed or the other way round.

 

The connection that smoked could be:

resistance in the crimp/solder between cable and eye terminal.

Eye terminal lose on the solenoid stud

Solenoid stud lose in the solenoid cap

Bad connection between the contact points in the solenod

Something causing excess current flow so low battery voltage, one brush not making proper contact, short inside motor, dry motor bearings, partially  seized engine.

 

The problem is sorting out which is the more and least likely and then working out how to test it.

 

In view of your past posts I went for low voltage caused by discharged batteries and the easiest way to test for that is the cranking voltage but even that doe snot rule out a short in the motor so you also need to feel the motor to see if it has warmed up. After just enough cranking to get a reading it should still be cool.

 

Beware Screwfix meters rarely have a high current DC scale so check the specifications carefully.

 

 

 

 

[Janz]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

As long as the battery negative is connected to the engine with a very thick "starter motor" sized cable I doubt it is an earthing fault.

 

Even less likely is a similar wire runs between the connection on the engine to the metal engine  bed or the other way round.

 

The connection that smoked could be:

resistance in the crimp/solder between cable and eye terminal.

Eye terminal lose on the solenoid stud

Solenoid stud lose in the solenoid cap

Bad connection between the contact points in the solenod

Something causing excess current flow so low battery voltage, one brush not making proper contact, short inside motor, dry motor bearings, partially  seized engine.

 

The problem is sorting out which is the more and least likely and then working out how to test it.

 

In view of your past posts I went for low voltage caused by discharged batteries and the easiest way to test for that is the cranking voltage but even that doe snot rule out a short in the motor so you also need to feel the motor to see if it has warmed up. After just enough cranking to get a reading it should still be cool.

 

Beware Screwfix meters rarely have a high current DC scale so check the specifications carefully.

 

 

 

 

Ok, thanks Tony. I'll turn the engine over with a spanner on the crank pulley first before I get a meter. Then I'll look at the condition of the earth strap from the engine to the chassis if I can find it. From there, I'll examine the motor brushes & bearings. If they look ok, I'll go buy the meter & tell you the cranking voltage but if I remember correctly just by looking at the volt meter on my instrument panel the voltage went right to zero & all the lights dimmed.

Do you think that would be the best way to go or should I buy the meter on the way over there & tell you the cranking voltage first?

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Janz said:

Ok, thanks Tony. I'll turn the engine over with a spanner on the crank pulley first before I get a meter. Then I'll look at the condition of the earth strap from the engine to the chassis if I can find it. From there, I'll examine the motor brushes & bearings. If they look ok, I'll go buy the meter & tell you the cranking voltage but if I remember correctly just by looking at the volt meter on my instrument panel the voltage went right to zero & all the lights dimmed.

Do you think that would be the best way to go or should I buy the meter on the way over there & tell you the cranking voltage first?

 

There needs to be a very low resistance path for high currents (100s of amps)  between the battery negative, engine and hull bond. If you have the motor off try to work some oil into the bushes at both ends, it may have to be cycle/3 in 1  oil because it is thinner.

 

4 minutes ago, Janz said:

if I remember correctly just by looking at the volt meter on my instrument panel the voltage went right to zero & all the lights dimmed.

 

That sounds more like a flat/faulty battery to me. I think we know the cranking voltage - zero. Probably no need to buy a meter as long as you get yours back eventually, but might need to buy a new battery. If the existing one is open cell how about a set of hydrometer readings, you must have a battery hydrometer left over from the motor cycles.

 

This is one time when I would suggest that you get the battery tested with the correct sized high rate discharge tester. You will probably have to take it to an autoelectrcian who deals with trucks and pay, but get it fully charged first.

 

No reason not to look at the other stuff as well.

[Janz]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

There needs to be a very low resistance path for high currents (100s of amps)  between the battery negative, engine and hull bond. If you have the motor off try to work some oil into the bushes at both ends, it may have to be cycle/3 in 1  oil because it is thinner.

 

 

That sounds more like a flat/faulty battery to me. I think we know the cranking voltage - zero. Probably no need to buy a meter as long as you get yours back eventually, but might need to buy a new battery. If the existing one is open cell how about a set of hydrometer readings, you must have a battery hydrometer left over from the motor cycles.

 

This is one time when I would suggest that you get the battery tested with the correct sized high rate discharge tester. You will probably have to take it to an autoelectrcian who deals with trucks and pay, but get it fully charged first.

 

No reason not to look at the other stuff as well.

Thank you. I shall head over there now... 

[Janz]

Brushes are good, no?

[Tony Brooks]

Yes, good, and so is the commutator as far as it is shown. The commutator end bush looks well lubricated as well.

[Janz]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Yes, good, and so is the commutator as far as it is shown. The commutator end bush looks well lubricated as well.

I'm getting a loud clunk when I turn the key but no starter motor activity. I can turn the engine via the crank pulley with a large wrench, so it hasn't seized. I connected a jump lead from -neg to the block & from +pos to the solenoid earth but no movement from the starter. I'm starting to think you're right & the battery is toast...

[Janz]

Still getting smoke from the solenoid, the - neg battery cable to the starter is getting hot. I'm not winning this...

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Janz said:

Still getting smoke from the solenoid, the - neg battery cable to the starter is getting hot. I'm not winning this...

I am surprised the solenoid is not machine gunning and if ONLY the negative cable is getting hot I don't understand why, unless it is thinner than the positive.  Trouble is batteries are expensive and the last thing you would want is to buy one only to find out it is not that.

 

In the electrical notes on my website there are diagrams and instructions for testing the starter circuit with a voltmeter. It may be worth trying that. I think you said that you have cleaned both battery terminals to bright metal, post and clamp, and made sure they are tight.

 

Edited to add if you charge the battery and then get it volt drop tested with the correct tester it should prove the battery one way or another.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Tony Brooks

[Tracy D'arth]

One terminal getting hot suggests a bad connection on that terminal/crimp.

 

Is this the one I said looks bad?

[Janz]

18 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I am surprised the solenoid is not machine gunning and if ONLY the negative cable is getting hot I don't understand why, unless it is thinner than the positive.  Trouble is batteries are expensive and the last thing you would want is to buy one only to find out it is not that.

 

In the electrical notes on my website there are diagrams and instructions for testing the starter circuit with a voltmeter. It may be worth trying that. I think you said that you have cleaned both battery terminals to bright metal, post and clamp, and made sure they are tight.

I'll pick up a multimeter tomorrow, Tony. Both the neg & pos cables were getting hot at different times. The solenoid was machine gunning when I adjusted the eccentric bolt on the starter but I couldn't get the starter to spin at all. Thanks for your help though. I'm giving up for today 'cos I'm losing the light here & my battery is down to 12.3v. I guess heating up the cables has done most of the charge I put in earlier...

Thanks...👍

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, Janz said:

I'll pick up a multimeter tomorrow, Tony. Both the neg & pos cables were getting hot at different times. The solenoid was machine gunning when I adjusted the eccentric bolt on the starter but I couldn't get the starter to spin at all. Thanks for your help though. I'm giving up for today 'cos I'm losing the light here & my battery is down to 12.3v. I guess heating up the cables has done most of the charge I put in earlier...

Thanks...👍

What eccentric bolt? There is no such thing on an M45G starter motor.

[Janz]

8 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

One terminal getting hot suggests a bad connection on that terminal/crimp.

 

Is this the one I said looks bad?

Yes it was that one from the starter to the -neg battery post. I just don't understand how it won't even turn the starter motor. I'll get the meter on it tomoz. I'm vexed & I want a beer...

Thanks for your replies to my posts...👍

3 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

What eccentric bolt? There is no such thing on an M45G starter motor.

Mine's the two bolt starter, Tracy. It has an eccentric bolt & lock nut which I think adjusts the distance the solenoid fires the copper core...

[Tracy D'arth]

44 minutes ago, Janz said:

Yes it was that one from the starter to the -neg battery post. I just don't understand how it won't even turn the starter motor. I'll get the meter on it tomoz. I'm vexed & I want a beer...

Thanks for your replies to my posts...👍

Mine's the two bolt starter, Tracy. It has an eccentric bolt & lock nut which I think adjusts the distance the solenoid fires the copper core...

Never seen one. Why did you try adjusting it? Are you sure it is still correctly adjusted?

 

If you short the 2 big terminals on the solenoid with a spanner does the motor run?  The pinion will not engage but it will prove the the motor is not burnt out.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Tracy D'arth