Solenoid problem...

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

Dropping the starter motor on a BMC 1.5 isn't the hardest thing to do. It can be a bit of a pain if you are attempting it single handed but it's possible, and once it's out it's so much easier to check things.

 

Much depends upon which drive end bracket the motor has and thus where the solenoid lies relative to the body. It also needs, if I remember correctly, the oil filter has to come off but not sure about that if it has a spin in conversion. It may be a bit difficult if you don't have a socket set, wobble bar etc. and you can't afford to buy them.

[StephenA]

47 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Much depends upon which drive end bracket the motor has and thus where the solenoid lies relative to the body. It also needs, if I remember correctly, the oil filter has to come off but not sure about that if it has a spin in conversion. It may be a bit difficult if you don't have a socket set, wobble bar etc. and you can't afford to buy them.

 

We have a spin on oil filter - if you have a medium length filter then you can wiggle the motor out without too much problem. Our starter comes out without us needing anything more than a socket, and surely everyone has, if not a whole socket set, the sockets needed, just like you have a small collection of odd spanner sizes.

[john.k]

There is a lot to be said for hand start.

[Janz]

I've had the starter motor off & the solenoid. Yes, I had to drop the oil filter. Eyeballing them tells me that the problem is likely not the motor but the solenoid. Yes I would love to have had a multimeter but I didn't & I was out for the day with friends & fam, so I couldn't really get too involved. Plus, my meter is out on loan. A new solenoid is 26 quid. A new starter motor is 126 quid. Which one would you go for first..?

Yes, I could just buy the solenoid cap at 7 quid but like I've already said, I want to fit something I can rely on as a plug & play part, not dick about with a soldering iron at the side of the canal. I want to be able to move the boat first & mess with the solenoid later, in the comfort of home, where I can use the soldering iron in a safe working environment. Wouldn't you? I'll fit a replacement for now & fix the original later. I did the same for my Jabsco pump. Now I have two pumps - one on the boat, one fixed one as a spare. So I will have two solenoids - one on the boat, one about to be fixed as a spare. That way I don't get caught out twice... dig?

If the £26 solenoid doesn't fix the problem, then at least I can eliminate it from the enquiry as it's a new part & should do the job it's intended for. So I will move on to the starter motor brushes & get those & so on & so forth, until the engine starts. The solenoid is the most likely offender so why not start there?

[Janz]

15 hours ago, john.k said:

Always have a direct earth cable from starter to battery terminal.........earthing through the motor can reduce the voltage enough to slow the starter...........and of course a direct cable from the other battery terminal to the starter............Smoke often means either looseness of the terminal bolts ,or corrosion on the connections.............solder can be a trap too,if a terminal gets hot ,solder runs out and frees the connection......a proper crimp with a tool is better,

Thanks John. I checked & cleaned all the direct connectiond

 

15 hours ago, john.k said:

Always have a direct earth cable from starter to battery terminal.........earthing through the motor can reduce the voltage enough to slow the starter...........and of course a direct cable from the other battery terminal to the starter............Smoke often means either looseness of the terminal bolts ,or corrosion on the connections.............solder can be a trap too,if a terminal gets hot ,solder runs out and frees the connection......a proper crimp with a tool is better,

Thanks John. I cleaned & inspected all direct connections to/from the batteries & tidied up all the wiring as I went. The earth connection is solid both from the motor & from the solenoid. When I get the replacement solenoid I'll fit it & see if it starts. If not, I'll remove the entire motor & check that but I'm pretty sure the connections are all good...👍

[Janz]

5 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

The OP has declared (IIRC) that he is opposed to buying specialist tools because they are, well, specialist. 

 

No it makes no sense to me either, unless I misunderstood. 

 

 

 

 

Mate  I'm not 'opposed to buying specialist tools because they are, well, specialist.'

I don't have the money.

I stated that I'm not a specialist but I do know how to use a multimeter. Please allow me to give you a pat on the back for your pomposity rating though...👍

[Janz]

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That is how I understand it and it seem that he would rather spend money on random new or better still secondhand parts than try to do a proper diagnostic job to find out what he really needs. Makes no sense to me either but each to their own.

Well, having new parts is a good thing, no? A new part will not be subject to dirt, corrosion or wear. I already told you that my meter is out on loan & that I won't be seeing the guy for a week. I don't want to wait a week to then find out I need a new part, Tony. I could spend the money on a new meter but then I will have two meters & one part. Don't you think it would be better to have one meter & two parts? I do...👍

[Mikexx]

1 hour ago, Janz said:

I've had the starter motor off & the solenoid. Yes, I had to drop the oil filter. Eyeballing them tells me that the problem is likely not the motor but the solenoid. Yes I would love to have had a multimeter but I didn't & I was out for the day with friends & fam, so I couldn't really get too involved. Plus, my meter is out on loan. A new solenoid is 26 quid. A new starter motor is 126 quid. Which one would you go for first..?

Yes, I could just buy the solenoid cap at 7 quid but like I've already said, I want to fit something I can rely on as a plug & play part, not dick about with a soldering iron at the side of the canal. I want to be able to move the boat first & mess with the solenoid later, in the comfort of home, where I can use the soldering iron in a safe working environment. Wouldn't you? I'll fit a replacement for now & fix the original later. I did the same for my Jabsco pump. Now I have two pumps - one on the boat, one fixed one as a spare. So I will have two solenoids - one on the boat, one about to be fixed as a spare. That way I don't get caught out twice... dig?

If the £26 solenoid doesn't fix the problem, then at least I can eliminate it from the enquiry as it's a new part & should do the job it's intended for. So I will move on to the starter motor brushes & get those & so on & so forth, until the engine starts. The solenoid is the most likely offender so why not start there?

 

An eyeball is no good in telling you if its the solenoid or starter.

 

I don't need to remove my oil filler to extract my starter motor. That suggests yours is not standard, though as a rule, bigger the better in terms of efficiency.

 

Given a DVM costs less than either a solenoid or starter, I would say go for the DVM first. You can never have enough.

 

No, I would want to diagnose the issue at hand, rather than buying unnecessary items or dismantling solenoids that could be working perfectly in some false hope.

 

There is no reason to suspect the solenoid over any other potential fault.

 

Why not start with a new meter?

[Janz]

3 hours ago, StephenA said:

 

We have a spin on oil filter - if you have a medium length filter then you can wiggle the motor out without too much problem. Our starter comes out without us needing anything more than a socket, and surely everyone has, if not a whole socket set, the sockets needed, just like you have a small collection of odd spanner sizes.

The motor came off real easy. It's just two bolts. The solenoid was two bolts as well. The oil filter is a long type so that had to come off too. None of this was particularly difficult. All I could do at the time was visually inspect the connections as I was out with friends & fam. I did a quick tidy up & replaced everything but turning the key afterwards blew the main fuse behind the ignition switch so I gave up at that point. Can't really assess the voltages without a meter, so I'm just going to fit a cheap solenoid, new 30 amp fuse & see if it starts up. I'm fairly hopeful it will. It was easy enough with just a few spanners. I do have a socket set but it's metric, so I used the odd spanners, as one does... if it doesn't fire up I'll know that it's either brushes or batteries that are faulty but the reason I think it's the solenoid is because I have a fully charged spare battery & that didn't make any difference & up until that point the starter motor was performing ok. Plus the solenoid was smoking... I did take all the batteries home & charged them. The leisure batteries didn't need much but the starter battery got a full charge just for piece of mind...👍

[Mikexx]

33 minutes ago, Janz said:

Well, having new parts is a good thing, no? A new part will not be subject to dirt, corrosion or wear. I already told you that my meter is out on loan & that I won't be seeing the guy for a week. I don't want to wait a week to then find out I need a new part, Tony. I could spend the money on a new meter but then I will have two meters & one part. Don't you think it would be better to have one meter & two parts? I do...👍

 

But you won't end with just two solenoids, it will then be 2 starter motors, then 2 isolation switches. Then multiple crimp connectors.

 

Far better to have 2 meters.

[Janz]

2 minutes ago, Mikexx said:

 

An eyeball is no good in telling you if its the solenoid or starter.

 

I don't need to remove my oil filler to extract my starter motor. That suggests yours is not standard, though as a rule, bigger the better in terms of efficiency.

 

Given a DVM costs less than either a solenoid or starter, I would say go for the DVM first. You can never have enough.

 

No, I would want to diagnose the issue at hand, rather than buying unnecessary items or dismantling solenoids that could be working perfectly in some false hope.

 

There is no reason to suspect the solenoid over any other potential fault.

 

Why not start with a new meter?

Because I have a decent one. It's a bit old but it's pretty reliable. My mate is trying to convert an old Honda from six to twelve volts so he's busy with it. I could get it but it would mean travel & hassle for me & for him.

5 minutes ago, Mikexx said:

 

But you won't end with just two solenoids, it will then be 2 starter motors, then 2 isolation switches. Then multiple crimp connectors.

 

Far better to have 2 meters.

Why would I need two starter motors? The motor cranks. I might order some new brushes for it though.

Plus a starter motor is expensive...

[Janz]

The solenoid was smoking...

[Mikexx]

14 minutes ago, Janz said:

Because I have a decent one. It's a bit old but it's pretty reliable.

 

Then get a cheap one as a spare. It might become old and be reliable too.

 

Your methodology to get to the root cause of your problem doesn't make sense.

13 minutes ago, Janz said:

The solenoid was smoking...

 

Which can also suggest a crimp has gone high resistance.

[Janz]

1 minute ago, Mikexx said:

 

Then get a cheap one as a spare. It might become old and be reliable too.

 

Your methodology to get to the root cause of your problem doesn't make sense.

 

Which can also suggest a crimp has gone high resistance.

Ok. Maybe I should explain my methodology. My engine is at least forty years old. That's just based on the boat age - 1981. It's probably a lot older. I want it to be reliable, so all suspect or worn consumerbles will be replaced. If & when they are replaced, I will have a number of spares to fix up. I have already replaced my Jabsco pump. It didn't need replacing, it needed refurbishing but I bought a refurbished pump & fitted it because I needed to move the boat to comply with my CRT two week obligation & couldn't wait for gaskets, the impeller, the gland packing etc to arrive.

I also needed a new pulley. The previous owner had fitted a car one that was offset to the drive pulley, which meant the belt was putting a strain on the packing causing a leak.

Now I have two pumps & two pulleys. I can now fix & sell the old one if I want or keep as a spare. The guy who sold me the replacement included a gland packing kit with the pump, meaning I could easily fix it.

The same applies to this part.

I get a cheap replacement, I have a spare that I can fix at my leisure. Not the day before I have to move.

Am I making sense now? I hope so. Some people on here think I'm an idiot, I don't care. They only have what I tell them but that doesn't stop them making pompous or snobby comments. Not saying you are but it happens & they must be very bored. I've been told I don't know what I'm doing, that what I plan is impossible, that I should get a job, gas fitters, electricians etc. Doesn't bother me. There are intolerant people on every forum. They are the sort of dweebs who think they know it all & then pay others to do the work. Well I ain't scared to do my own work & I ain't gonna trawl through people's posts & reply with some lofty, unhelpful, judgemental or smarmy crap to score points with some other strangers in cyberspace. I don't care if they have a posh workshop or spent a fortune doing up a boat. Nor do I care whether they think I'm scum for being unemployed, or not using the correct seamanship or maritime terms, or for fitting non-boat items such as car or motorbike parts. I'm just here for information & I think my methodology is sound. Now I have a few spare parts that have value & they might save me time & money later because nothing lasts for ever & if I can swap out a few tired or worn engine parts for new or decent second-hand bits, what's wrong with that? I'm doing up a forty year old boat & I'm prepared to learn by trial & error. Spending £25 for a new solenoid might be a trial for me but it ain't no error...👍

[Mikexx]

11 minutes ago, Janz said:

Am I making sense now?

 

No, there is no sense in your methodology to get to the root cause of your current problem.

 

If something fails then fix it, by all means refurbish the failed part to keep a spare. It pays to know what to fix, rather than a haphazard replacement policy.

[Janz]

2 minutes ago, Mikexx said:

 

No, there is no sense in your methodology to get to the root cause of your current problem.

 

If something fails then fix it, by all means refurbish the failed part to keep a spare. It pays to know what to fix, rather than a haphazard replacement policy.

Well we'll see. I think the solenoid's gone. I'm going to haphazardly replace it & then you'll get the big reveal. Did it fix the problem... If not then I'll hold my hands up.

[Mikexx]

4 minutes ago, Janz said:

Well we'll see. I think the solenoid's gone. I'm going to haphazardly replace it & then you'll get the big reveal. Did it fix the problem... If not then I'll hold my hands up.

 

It may well fix it. It is the prime candidate or failure. But 10 minutes with a meter would confirm and or find the actual fault without doing extra work. It would give confidence that you have the right solution. It's simply good engineering practice.

[Janz]

1 minute ago, Mikexx said:

 

It may well fix it. It is the prime candidate or failure. But 10 minutes with a meter would confirm and or find the actual fault without doing extra work. It would give confidence that you have the right solution. It's simply good engineering practice.

Let's see. Solenoid vs Meter... Fight..!

[john.k]

For Gardners I have probably 20 spare starters ,several spare motors,spare headss,injector pumps ,gear boxes and  parts..(its a Thorny Ford).....and when confronted with a quote of 320 quid for a thermostat housing,I was glad of every last bit of it.

[Tony Brooks]

9 hours ago, Janz said:

The motor came off real easy. It's just two bolts

 

That is  a very, very early version of the 1.5D and you might have difficulties getting a new motor. The more modern three hole starters will not fit and the engine back plate so to fit a modern motor you need to change the back plate, flywheel housing and possibly flywheel. However it may be a three hole starter with only two bolts fitted.

 

Whether the oil filter has to come off depends upon the exact starter motor your have (mainly solenoid position) and the size of the  engine beds so I know that the oil filter has to come off on some configurations.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Tony Brooks
Change flywheel to starter - don't know how I typed flywheel

[Janz]

1 hour ago, john.k said:

For Gardners I have probably 20 spare starters ,several spare motors,spare headss,injector pumps ,gear boxes and  parts..(its a Thorny Ford).....and when confronted with a quote of 320 quid for a thermostat housing,I was glad of every last bit of it.

I like having spares around me too, John. They hold their price & often appreciate in value & when you have an engine that's rare, it's like having a small gold mine in your shed...

[Janz]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That is  a very, very early version of the 1.5D and you might have difficulties getting a new motor. The more modern three hole starters will not fit and the engine back plate so to fit a modern motor you need to change the back plate, flywheel housing and possibly flywheel. However it may be a three hole flywheel with only two bolts fitted.

 

Whether the oil filter has to come off depends upon the exact starter motor your have (mainly solenoid position) and the size of the  engine beds so I know that the oil filter has to come off on some configurations.

Thanks for the heads up, Tony. The oil filter definitely needs to come off to remove the starter. It's the long type & Mike suggested it may be a non-standard one. When I get back to London I'll take some photos of the set up & also the engine number to confirm the age. The solenoid is partly exposed. It mates to the starter on a 'half moon' & has a rubber pad that sits between it & the starter body to insulate or protect the exposed area. 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

The normal 3 bolt starter motor on the 1.5D is an M45G. The number is stamped in the outside casing.  I am unsure if the same motor is made with 2 bolt fixing but the solenoids are likely to be the same.

If you search the Cargo site I am sure that you will find a cheaper solenoid.  If the winding is OK you can just replace the endcap which has the contacts and terminals on, it is often all you need.

[john.k]

Strangely ,there are two quite different M45G s.....one is for petrol motors ,like LandRovers...and one is for diesels.....early on ,perkins used the diesel M45Gs for everything,but they are a bit small ,and Perkins went to the M50 for everything bar the 4/108................as to Joe Lucas ....as many know ,he never lived to see a electric starter,or windscreen wiper,or a dash switch.

[Janz]

22 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The normal 3 bolt starter motor on the 1.5D is an M45G. The number is stamped in the outside casing.  I am unsure if the same motor is made with 2 bolt fixing but the solenoids are likely to be the same.

If you search the Cargo site I am sure that you will find a cheaper solenoid.  If the winding is OK you can just replace the endcap which has the contacts and terminals on, it is often all you need.

I did have a look at Cargo, Tracy, the ladt time you suggested them but I'm sure I read that they only only do trade accounts? I'll look now...