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Combined Heat & Power (CHP) on boats

blackrose

By blackrose
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blackrose Veteran II

blackrose

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I'm not sure if this has been covered before on the forum, and although the power output of this unit would be too low for most of us, its a DC generator, battery charger, inverter & heater all in one.

 

http://www.whispergen.com/main/dcwhispergen/

 

http://www.whispergen.com/content/library/...ct_Brochure.pdf

 

I'm sure they'll be making higher output models that run on biodiesel in future (but it's not my intention to start a biodiesel debate here).

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Scotty Proficient

Scotty

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I've never liked all-in-one products, nothing lasts forever and when it fails you loose the lot.

 

Bad enough loosing generator, battery charger, inverter or heater at any time.

Imagine loosing them all at the same time.

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BigRoj Collaborator

BigRoj

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Something doesn't seem right about this. It looks to me to be a thermal engine whose by-product is electrical power, it's main output being heat. So therefore, to get a decent electrical output that will be of use to us, the physical size of the thing will be too big for our vessels!!

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Gibbo Veteran II

Gibbo

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I'm not sure if this has been covered before on the forum, and although the power output of this unit would be too low for most of us, its a DC generator, battery charger, inverter & heater all in one.

 

http://www.whispergen.com/main/dcwhispergen/

 

http://www.whispergen.com/content/library/...ct_Brochure.pdf

 

I'm sure they'll be making higher output models that run on biodiesel in future (but it's not my intention to start a biodiesel debate here).

 

It depends how it is looked at.

 

Some people look at it as a not very good, rather inefficient, water heater. Which is about right if that is as far as one looks at it. You can get more heat for the same amount of fuel from a Mikuni or Eberspacher.

 

Others look at it as a not very efficient, somewhat wasteful, bizarre method of electricity generation. Which again is about right if one is shortsighted. You can get more power from a small diesel generator for the same amount of diesel.

 

If it is looked at properly, from every perspective, it actually makes really good sense.

 

It generates electricity, not very efficiently admittedly, but then everything that would normally be wasted (as in the heat that is normally thrown away) is resalvaged as heat and warms your water up. If the same system were used to generate electricity which was then used to heat water it would be half as effieicnt.

 

If you use both of them it's actually brilliant.

 

I won't get involved in a load of arguments. You know my credentials. And I've studied the device. Carefully.

 

If you can balance the use of hot water and electricitry (which might not be that simple because it makes so much more heat than electricity- but IF you can) to get reasonable use of this device then it is almost impossible to beat one from the point of view of efficiency and economy.

 

For a continuous cruiser I don't see anything that comes even close for getting every last penny out of some fuel.

 

I'd have one but I don't continuously cruise. If I did, then it might be different. They're the dog's bollox. I wish I'd invented them.

 

Gibbo

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Guest

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I have a CHP device that generates more heat to the cabin/water system than we can ever use, gives over 1000W of electrical energy (soon to be double) and consumes about a litre of diesel per hour. It also has a small advantage that it can push the boat along very well. It is a Vetus 415.

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BigRoj Collaborator

BigRoj

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Posted (edited)
I have a CHP device that generates more heat to the cabin/water system than we can ever use, gives over 1000W of electrical energy (soon to be double) and consumes about a litre of diesel per hour. It also has a small advantage that it can push the boat along very well. It is a Vetus 415.

 

Exactly, so why bother! Would be good for the 'raggy' types though who rely on wind. As the Stirling engine principal was discovered around 1815, and its main use to date is in nuclear powered submarines with their almost limitless heat supply, there is obviously not a great demand for them.

Mind you, IF we are in for a global temperature rise, then they might come into their own!!!!

Edited by BigRoj
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blackrose Veteran II

blackrose

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Sterling engine, external combustion. This was discussed about two years ago.
Well my apologies, not all of us were members of the forum two years ago.
I have a CHP device that generates more heat to the cabin/water system than we can ever use, gives over 1000W of electrical energy (soon to be double) and consumes about a litre of diesel per hour. It also has a small advantage that it can push the boat along very well. It is a Vetus 415.
Interesting, but you forget to mention how many decibels of unwanted sound does it produces? Edited by blackrose
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blackrose Veteran II

blackrose

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... the physical size of the thing will be too big for our vessels!!
Speak for yourself! :lol:
I've never liked all-in-one products, nothing lasts forever and when it fails you loose the lot.Bad enough loosing generator, battery charger, inverter or heater at any time. Imagine loosing them all at the same time.
That's true - I don't even like combi chargers & would rather have separate units. Edited by blackrose
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Chris J W Influencer

Chris J W

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Chuffin' hell!!!!! Blackrose: I will live with the unwanted Db's !!!!!

 

After picking myself up from the floor after that, I've come to conclusion I'm more likely to find teeth in a hen than have one in my boat.

 

Reg - you have a source for that figure?

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pagan witch Community Regular

pagan witch

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At the IWA for some years now has been a firm called Karunda Marine. They prpomote a Stirling system that combines heat and power but as I seem to recall - not much power so they bundled an inverter / charger too.

 

Seen one demonstrated - as close to silent and vibration free nas you can get but well over the price of decent individual components.

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blackrose Veteran II

blackrose

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Chuffin' hell!!!!! Blackrose: I will live with the unwanted Db's !!!!!

 

I wasn't actually suggesting that anyone go out and buy one of these, I'm just interested in where the technology is heading and was putting the subject up for discussion.

 

For example, when high output pure sinewave inverters first emerged for marine use, I daresay they were prohibitively expensive and perhaps weren't as efficient as some on the market today - but here we are, and many now have these items as standard on their boats.

Edited by blackrose
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reg Experienced

regDonate to Canal World

Posted
Posted (edited)
At the IWA for some years now has been a firm called Karunda Marine. They prpomote a Stirling system that combines heat and power but as I seem to recall - not much power so they bundled an inverter / charger too.

 

Seen one demonstrated - as close to silent and vibration free nas you can get but well over the price of decent individual components.

 

I think you are correct Karunda did market Whispergen at one point but there site no longer seems to have any details about it.

I do believe 2 to 3 years ago the Whispergen was even more expensive.

 

The potentially good news, which I have only just found out as s result of this thread, is that POWERGEN appear to be looking at introducing the Whispergen to the mass market from early 2009, quote;

Current status

 

Micro CHP for the home is a new and revolutionary technology that no energy company in the UK has offered so far. We are not currently delivering any units to customers, but together with our manufacturing partners, we are working towards a full market roll-out of mass-manufactured units from early 2009. In order to achieve this and ensure full customer satisfaction, we are now running commercial tests of the technology, and will continue to do so throughout 2008.

My highlights in the above.

 

Assuming this is the same unit, which is difficult to tell from the info provided, then this looks like an exciting prospect for the future. I'll put this on my 'one to watch' list

 

 

Powergen Link

 

http://www.powergen.co.uk/At-Home/Products.../WhisperGen.htm

 

edited to say

Maybe Blackrose was correct and this may well be the future

 

EDIT- BIT MORE RESEARCH

The powergen units are AC domestic units and are priced at aprrox £3000.

http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/powergen...spergenunit.htm

 

These are devloped by the same company that produces th DC units

http://www.whispergen.com/main/products/

 

So potentially the mass introduction of the AC units could help reduce the price of the DC units

Edited by reg
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blackrose Veteran II

blackrose

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Powergen marketing it? I'll not hold my breath! Not many companies market a product that will take business away from them.

 

How would it take business away from them?

 

Many companies produce alternative products for different or emerging market sectors.

Edited by blackrose
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Gary Peacock Veteran

Gary Peacock

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Having worked with them.

A word of advice stay away!

 

Notice Kurunda don't feature them anymore!

 

Victron seem to have clensed themself of them too.

 

I wonder how EP Barrus are going on with the ones they sold to BW? :lol::rolleyes::(

 

Oh and you thought Eberspachers don't like gas oil well neither does the catalyst in the Whispergen and that will cost you a lot more to have serviced.

 

We still have one on a live aboard narrowboat but I can't imagine it being there for much longer.

 

 

This is what's inside one-

 

db_Picture_7261.jpg

 

On a closing note if anybody really wants one we can still supply them.

Edited by Gary Peacock
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Gibbo Veteran II

Gibbo

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Having worked with them.

A word of advice stay away!

 

Notice Kurunda don't feature them anymore!

 

Victron seem to have clensed themself of them too.

 

I wonder how EP Barrus are going on with the ones they sold to BW? :lol::rolleyes::(

 

Oh and you thought Eberspachers don't like gas oil well neither does the catalyst in the Whispergen and that will cost you a lot more to have serviced.

 

We still have one on a live aboard narrowboat but I can't imagine it being there for much longer.

This is what's inside one-

 

db_Picture_7261.jpg

 

On a closing note if anybody really wants one we can still supply them.

 

The ones I've seen are all being run on white diesel (because the installers told them they were crap on anything else) and have been fine.

 

However what I wasn't aware of was the "Warranty 24 months or 2000 hours".

 

2000 hours? What possible use is that to anyone? We currently give 24 months and are soon increasing this to 5 years.

 

I can imagine our customers' reaction if we tried to sell stuff with a 2000 hour warranty. To save you working it out that's less than 3 months.

 

Could you sell a brand new boat with a 3 month warranty?

 

It's pathetic. I reckon Trading Standards might also have something to say about it.

 

As far as I'm concerned, 3 months warranty makes it not fit for purpose.

 

In view of this I take back what I originally said. Even though they are extremely efficient and do seem to work in practice.

 

Gibbo

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