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BS5 starter issues


mike@oldnut.co.uk
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It would not surprise me, just spoken to the long time prev owner, who advised the problem occurred occasionally in 2010 getting slowly worse over the years, alternative starter fitted but no better, this starter, the one we have now, went for repair in 07 2017, the boat went up for sale within a year so only doing 390 hrs since the starter check , during the test the clutch and carrier was tested, new drive end bush fitted along with a new pinion and bench tested, now to me a simple 'stick it in the vice and run jobby' would show everything sliding out and spinny stuff happening, but this would not show that clear step between the two phases, that of sliding then spinning, all too quick, now your question is something I have been pondering, is it possible that somehow in the first stage we are somehow getting too much torque, so butting them makes spin, not donk, stop which is what it should do, CAV 'words and music' refer to this, and as I pointed out in response to Tracy was it? if you look at the end of the ring gear what are the odds on hitting tooth or a gap, if not 50/50, certainly 40/60 so you would expect nearly 40% Donk, then enter on the 2nd dab of the starter switch, so, it has to be either a solenoid or as you say, electrickery in the wrong place!

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1 hour ago, mike@oldnut.co.uk said:

It would not surprise me, just spoken to the long time prev owner, who advised the problem occurred occasionally in 2010 getting slowly worse over the years, alternative starter fitted but no better, this starter, the one we have now, went for repair in 07 2017, the boat went up for sale within a year so only doing 390 hrs since the starter check , during the test the clutch and carrier was tested, new drive end bush fitted along with a new pinion and bench tested, now to me a simple 'stick it in the vice and run jobby' would show everything sliding out and spinny stuff happening, but this would not show that clear step between the two phases, that of sliding then spinning, all too quick, now your question is something I have been pondering, is it possible that somehow in the first stage we are somehow getting too much torque, so butting them makes spin, not donk, stop which is what it should do, CAV 'words and music' refer to this, and as I pointed out in response to Tracy was it? if you look at the end of the ring gear what are the odds on hitting tooth or a gap, if not 50/50, certainly 40/60 so you would expect nearly 40% Donk, then enter on the 2nd dab of the starter switch, so, it has to be either a solenoid or as you say, electrickery in the wrong place!

Well the auxiliary coils are made up of a shunt winding to hold the starter in mesh and a series winding for the spinny bit, (regardless of YouTube it should spin into mesh and engage every time). I am wondering about the possibility of one or other of the series windings having a short. It might be a good idea to compare the resistance of the two against one another.

If you can test it in the vice with your bit of card in the second contact it should leap forward and spin quite smartly but it should be quite evident that it's on reduced power.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I appear to have exactly the same problem as Mike, although my starter is on a vintage car. Both the pinion and I are now somewhat distressed, although only the pinion has had about 1/8" machined off its teeth, apparently by 'premature rotation'. I have had the car for 50 years, and it has worked fine for 49¾. The pinion is bronze and 11-tooth, which is correct for the application. Before I start investigating the motor, first I shall be going into Brum early next week to see if it is possible to get the teeth brazed up. I can buy a new pinion from one of the spares suppliers, but it is over £200.

I am wondering if it could be simply a defective battery, although when it does engage it seems to turn over normally, so probably not, and it is only 2 years old.

 

Martin

Edited by MJT
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Hi Martin

I am off to our boat today, I will be removing the starter and taking it up to CJF 01543424717 in Cannock for either, repair or service exchange, I am convinced it is the second stage contact coming in too early, hence it turns into a milling machine, mine has got worse over a number of years, it cannot be anything to do with the 'engine/flywheel/ring gear' no doubt same as you, so it can only be the starter, I doubt it is the battery, I will know for sure next week when I get it replaced. you can call me if you wish, you will find me on messenger.

Rgds

Mike

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36 minutes ago, mike@oldnut.co.uk said:

Hi Martin

I am off to our boat today, I will be removing the starter and taking it up to CJF 01543424717 in Cannock for either, repair or service exchange, I am convinced it is the second stage contact coming in too early, hence it turns into a milling machine, mine has got worse over a number of years, it cannot be anything to do with the 'engine/flywheel/ring gear' no doubt same as you, so it can only be the starter, I doubt it is the battery, I will know for sure next week when I get it replaced. you can call me if you wish, you will find me on messenger.

Rgds

Mike

My memory has tapped me on the shoulder and reminded me of the tiny return spring on the solenoid trip lever which is easily lost. It is there is it?

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Thanks Sir Nibble, yes mine is still there, and the trip lever in good condition. In fact I spent some considerable time, within the last couple of years, re-furbishing the contacts on the solenoid, which had become badly pitted. Still v.g. condition.

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Well Gentlemen, took my starter to Cannock today to get it refurbed, not sure how long before it comes back, their comment was 'every one of these we get has a chewed up pinion' they were not able to say why! if you looked at my starter there are no obvious reasons, my trip lever looks in good shape, no rounding, the spring is all present and appears correct, now does it have the correct tension, that I do not know, yes the contacts are probably 60% eroded away, but it still worked when it meshed! the solenoid pulls forward with a bit of slop, yes the commutator would benefit from a skim, the rear bearing appears to have no play, the front one has a little play, if i had a vice I could have measured it, well only if I had brought a dti with me! but i do have digital calipers, interestingly for those who can recall it has some shims behind to space out the CL a little, these are actually bits of 1/2" copper pipe beaten flat, measure around 0.065" which coincidently was the rotational clearance betwixt pinion and ring gear, took the shims out and the clearance is now +/-0.036" this does include some of that clearance in the front bearing, so, what is the problem? at this point I could not point the finger at any one thing, presumably a combination, as one also has to presume that all the starters that arrived at CJF arrived with a trashed pinion but left in good working order and they do not know what the problem is, well if they do they were not 'letting on'! BTW using a thin bit of strimmer cord I measured the flywheel, the major diameter is 22.5" the reduced area which is below the crown of the teeth but near the PCD, is 22"

pinion to ringear.jpg

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Interesting to see that your flywheel teeth have a square front. Mine have a definite lead-in. My bronze pinion is considerably worse than yours, but I have left it with J.B.Place & Son in Tyseley this morning, and hope to get it back tomorrow or Wednesday suitably made good. Then I have some filing to do.

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CL - Centre line, I should have perhaps said CRS centres between the crankshaft and the starter.

The CAV manual 'dictates' that with a cast iron ring gear, the sides of the teeth are sq, with a steel ring gear there is lead, I will have a furkle for the relevant page and paste it in.......goes off furkling! hmmm the chamfer as described above is for 'non axial' starters (A BS5 is an axial starter, what that means is that the whole commutator and the pinion slides sideways to engage the teeth, then it spins up, the problem is that when they go 'wrong' they spin up before they should hence chewing the pinion against the ring gear, a 'non axial is a 'bendix type' ie, the commutator does not slide, it rotates in the same place, the centrifugal force throws the pinion down a spiral thread against a spring which throws it back out of mesh when starter button released.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have had the teeth brazed and filed them up as best as I can, then put a 20 degree lead-in on the ends. Next to re-assemble, put the motor in the vice,  and see if the trip is operating too early.

 

DSCF4633.JPG

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Good luck with it, very difficult to see what is happening as it happens so quickly, I would suggest putting the carboard under the 2nd contact trick first to see what happens, then try without, you really need a slow motion video to see when it starts turning 'vigorously' 

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27 minutes ago, mike@oldnut.co.uk said:

Good luck with it, very difficult to see what is happening as it happens so quickly, I would suggest putting the carboard under the 2nd contact trick first to see what happens, then try without, you really need a slow motion video to see when it starts turning 'vigorously' 

It should be possible to check the operation of the second stage trigger with no power on. I'm more interested in just how hard it's spinning on first stage and ensuring that the armature stays forward on no load.

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Thanks Mike. I now have the motor back together. I noticed before, and again now that there is a thickish 'washer' between the trip disc and the end casing. This is a piece of bent wire, so obviously not OE. The effect is to hold the armature disc slightly nearer to the trip lever. Only about 1/16". As I have said, the motor has worked fine for 49+ years, but I wonder if I should try replacing this with a normal washer. I have not tried operating it yet, but I can see that it will be difficult to get a true idea of the 'full-power' moment.

3 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

It should be possible to check the operation of the second stage trigger with no power on. I'm more interested in just how hard it's spinning on first stage and ensuring that the armature stays forward on no load.

Ok thanks. I'll try with the cardboard first.

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Thanks TD.

I have now applied power. With cardboard the armature rotates sedately and does stay out. Without cardboard full power is released. As you said Mike it happens so quickly it is impossible to tell exactly where on the stroke the full power cuts in. The contact tumbler is of course spring mounted, which adds to the uncertainty.

 

I think I'll put it back on the car, check the pinion to flywheel gap, and see how it goes.

 

PS rightly or wrongly I used a HD battery charger for the test. Beginning on lowest setting, there was not enough juice to work. I increased to 2 where it was barely pulling in, then 3, and it fully pulls in on 3. Therefore it does seem to me that a duff battery could cause problems. I shall get it tested.

 

 

Edited by MJT
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