looking for advice on boat builders

[woolies]

Being fairly new to narrow boating me and my family have decide to have our own narrow boat build.

I’m looking for advice on builders in the northwest area. We have been to see sterling narrow boats and we were very impressed has any one had one of them before? We’re also going to see Liverpool boats

Also I’ve been told fuel is going up so is it wise to install gas central heating rather than diesel.

Also what do people think of pump out toilets as to cassette toilet.

Any help will be appreciated as we don’t want to regret the lay out we choose or the builder.

Thanks, mark

[DHutch]

Thread moved to General Boating.

[Dominic M]

Being fairly new to narrow boating me and my family have decide to have our own narrow boat build.

I’m looking for advice on builders in the northwest area. We have been to see sterling narrow boats and we were very impressed has any one had one of them before? We’re also going to see Liverpool boats

Also I’ve been told fuel is going up so is it wise to install gas central heating rather than diesel.

Also what do people think of pump out toilets as to cassette toilet.

Any help will be appreciated as we don’t want to regret the lay out we choose or the builder.

Thanks, mark

 

If this is to be your first boat then I would strongly advise that you buy second hand, for two main reasons:

 

1. If you find that you don't like/get bored with boating after a period of time, and you buy a well maintained used boat, then providing you keep up the maintenance you should get most if not all of your money back when you sell. With a new boat you will lose - probably an amount equivalent to the VAT element at least, depending on what you pay for a new build.

 

2. If you like boating your idea of what is the right layout and equipment will almost certainly change, quite radically, after a year or two. I can assure you that many first time buyers who come into our office (I work in brokerage) come back a while later looking to sell their first boat and buy a second. A prime example would be a couple who recently opted to sell their ultra-modern boat that they thought was their dream when they bought it, chock full of gizmos with an electric panel that looked capable of launching the next NASA space mission, and were looking for a traditional boatman's cabin, engine room etc. An extreme example you might think, but not uncommon.

 

Whatever you do decide, I hope you have a great time.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Dominic M

[Chrisy]

Of course there are pro's and cons to having a new boat bilt but on the pro side you get to have all the things you want but you should definatly chose your builders well. I suggest as well as seeing them talk to boaters around the area you want to be in they will know the reputation of local builders. What ever way you decide to go some things to take into consideration especially if you intend to liveaboard size of water tank as having to fill up all the time is a pain and in my experiance if the water tank is under the bow the space to the sides of it tend to be dead space and therefore I always try to get one that fills the whole space. On the side of toilets personal preference is holding tank I'd prefer to pay someone to pump it out over having to haul it to the elsan point and deal with it.

[Guest]

We bought a sailaway off Jim at Stirling N.b's at Ellesmere Port. We found him fine to deal with and when we had a couple of little problems, they were dealt with immediately. Brian Coleman built the shell for our boat, but I think Jim uses one or two other quality suppliers too.

[wrigglefingers]

Hello Mark, welcome to the forum!

 

I agree with Dominic. For what it's worth, I really fancied an all-singing boat when I started looking, but eventually settled on a relatively simple boat. This has meant that I've been able to steadily learn to sort out the problems, or least find help when I needed it. Given what there is to go wrong, even on a simple boat like Surprise, I wouldn't fancy anything that's too complicated or too expensive to risk making a mistake with. It hasn't always been great becasue of the high level of failure of the equipment, but after 18 months, I now know my boat inside out and can at least work out what needs attention next.

 

Second, this is the boat that you are going to learn to steer on as well as maintain, you will scrape it and scratch it at the very least - everybody (the competent, the incompetent, spatially confused and the frankly insane) will want to have go too. It might just be less stressful if you did that with a secondhand boat with paintwork 'history'.

 

Third, the rate of depreciation on some new boats can be scary if you get it wrong. The waterways, if not littered, can render up a substantial number of boats that wouldn't sell because they're simply too idiosyncratic or dull or inconvenient, weird or just useless or unfit for purpose. Ellen and I saw a boat, 2 years old, very few miles on the clock, good hull, nice paintwork. The layout involve a bedroom at each end, walk through toilet between the kitchen and dinette and it's as dark as the grave. It had been on the market for 80k for ages but had such a large loan on it the owners couldn't accept an offer on it. even the broker thought that 55k was more realistic - they had paid over 90k for it.

 

I have always thought that I would want to build my own boat at some point but I would want to get it close to being right. I'm also realistic enough to realise that I'd need experience and frankly, a lot of help to do that. I'm not convinced that that can be achieved overnight. I have felt that it's tempting to think if I throw money at a project, but spend no time thinking it through, it will be perfectly worry-free, but in truth, the inverse is far more true for me.

 

Obviously we're all different so this is just how it's been for us.

 

Good luck, and don't forget to enjoy the experience despite all our contrary advice and the sheer knuckle-gnawing horror of it all. It all makes sense on a misty morning with the sun breaking through and the birds bursting into song (normally followed by the sound of a catbell stalking said bird).

 

Shep

[JohnEW2912]

Just to prove that we're all different our experience has been the opposite of most above.

 

We have been boating since the mid 1970s on occasional hire boats and in 2002 we finally had the money to buy our own boat. After looking at some second-hand boats and getting very depressed at the poor quality for the money we opted to buy a new boat at the bottom end of the market. We opted for Triton Boats in Eccles and took delivery in May 2003. I fully expected that we would be looking to trade our boat after 5 years or so because I assumed that we would want other features or a different layout with the benefit of a few years ownership and usage. Now coming to the end of our fifth season I can think of little I would want to change and have no real desire to change boats. Maybe we were lucky in that we had many years of hiring experience plus we did a lot of leg work in researching our ideal layout but our boat has and continues to work for us. Given the prices of most new boats I see it was also a bargain at about £40K all-in for a 50' boat (probably £50K now). The only real problem area was a fairly poor initial paint job but we have put that right this year.

 

On toilets we chose a Thetford cassette and have never regretted our decision. We did think we might get fed up of emptying our own but we never really think about it now. It costs us nowt to empty and disposal points are much more convenient than pump-outs. But as said above, each to their own....

[woolies]

Thanks for all your comments been very helpful. I know what Dominic is saying is very true and although we did like the idea of designing are very own boat would be nice beginning to think it’s not the best choice. Reason being all the second hand boats we’ve seen are very dark inside and closed in. You think a better idea would be to buy an off the peg type boat value for money wise

Say £1000.00 per foot. Plus odd extras we would like semi trad hull because I’m hopeless at backing up thinking of a bow thrusters.

I have an appointment with Liverpool boats on Tuesday thinking of lowering my sights and seeing what an off the shelf boat would cost.

Another problem I have to take in to account i can’t get mooring in Cheshire where I live without long waiting list. But some boat builders guarantee mooring with new boat.

Thanks again for all your help. mark

[KenK]

Hi Mark,

Welcome to the forum.

 

You're in a good part of the world for boat builders, lots there so plenty of choice. Best advice I can offer is don't jump in with both feet, take your time and look at as many boats as you can. Set a price you can afford and stick to it, it's far too easy to get sucked into paying for those must have extras which you never use. In my opinion a bow thruster is not worth the money, if you really can't reverse do a Helmsmans course its far cheaper. Diesel fuel for heating will still be taxed at the current rate so if you go down that route you need a seperate tank for the stove, of course it may not be easy to find depending on the goverment's final decision.

Personal choice a cassette, it's far cheaper, and there are more places to empty it.

 

We bought a 60 ft semi-trad off the shelf from a builder at Great Haywood last year, so far nothings gone wrong and we have enjoyed every minute.

 

Slightly further afield I'd take a look at Narrowcraft Ltd. I've had no dealings with them but anyone who is prepared to build the boat for 10% down and the rest when it's finished must be worth a look, spec seems good too.

 

Good luck in the hunt

 

 

Ken

[Gary Peacock]

A word of advise don't get into the price per foot conversation, it is totally meaningless. (But boat builders like to use it to compare there prices favourably to others!)

[woolies]

hi ken thanks for ur reply regaurding the toilets on board boat. ive taken what you say on board.

the bow thruster was to help wife as shes not so good on tiller and i thought it would help while i do the locks.

you think resale of a boat with pump out toilet would be higher ?

thanks for your help. mark

Edited September 13, 2007 by woolies

[anhar]

hi kenk thanks for ur reply regaurding the toilets on board boat. ive taken what you say on board.

the bow thruster was to help wife as shes not so good on tiller and i thought it would help while i do the locks.

you think resale of a boat with pump out toilet would be higher ?

thanks for your help. mark

Bow thrusters are a matter of deep controversy on this forum. I haven't got one but I definitely would have one on my next boat, money permitting. They make many manouevres much easier so money apart, what reason is there not to have one?

 

For example getting on to my marina pontoon is always tricky and more so if there is wind blowing the wrong way. It requires a series of forward and reverse moves and although I haven't done so, there is always the risk of bashing another boat. First time I came in there was a chap on the pontoon next to me in a plastic job, which he himself described as a "yogurt pot". As I twisted and turned to back into my slot he was clearly worried that I might crush his boat. A bow thruster would make mooring my boat there a lot simpler and safer especially when single handed which I often am. They're not essential of course, just extremely useful on certain occasions and contribute to a boat's handling ability and safety.

 

As for toilets, this again is one of those much debated subjects. My advice is to go for the type with which you feel most comfortable having considered the pros and cons of cassette vs. pumpout. I'm not sure pumpouts make much difference to resale prices because that depends on a whole load of various factors, you can't isolate the effect the toilet type has on prices. In any event though, I'd say it's far more important to have the sort of toilet with which you are most happy because you are going to have to live with it for some time, not that which is the most beneficial to resale even if it were possible to gauge such a thing.

 

regards

Steve

[woolies]

thank,s for your comments on bow thruster, i thought i was the only one who gets blown across marinas and when parking up against expsensive boats getting glared at.

they seem to make life so much simpler but never trying one wondered if they are as good as sound.

im leaning to pump out toilet but i do recall a time when on holiday in nottingham when we were a day with no toilet due to need emptying which we had trouble getting a place to pump out.

then we had to reverse between 2 boats on an angle which was a nightmare enable to pump toilet out.

one more thing i`d like to know if you are a casual user on your boat will a pump out toilet be ok emptying it every couple of months does it leave any unpleasnt smell.

thanks mark

[bottle]

Mark

 

On the subject of toilets, why not have both.

 

I am having a boat built and it will have a 'pump out' in the bathroom and a 'cassette' at the rear in its own small room.

 

Reasons, best of both worlds and as we will be having a 'cross bed' I will not have to climb over my wife to use the loo after a heavy night

 

We shall be CCers (yes true ones) but if we get stuck somewhere and the 'pump out' is full, we can always do a 'carry out' if we cannot get to a pump out station.

[KenK]

hi kenk thanks for ur reply regaurding the toilets on board boat. ive taken what you say on board.

the bow thruster was to help wife as shes not so good on tiller and i thought it would help while i do the locks.

you think resale of a boat with pump out toilet would be higher ?

thanks for your help. mark

 

Hi Mark,

You've got this boating lark all wrong, men steer and give orders, women do locks. Tin hat on only joking ladies.

 

Bow thrusters are useful, no denying it, but they are expensive and they get used more than they should. You've paid for it so why not use it, if you don't have one then sometimes you wish you had but there's a great sense of satisfaction when despite all the odds the boat goes just where you intended. Of course when it doesn't just pretend that's what you intended to do all along.

 

If resale value is a consideration then keep the boat as straightforward as possible. People should view boats as the shell and mechanics engine etc. but they don't, they look at the interior. Current trend is nice and light, granite worktops etc.

a floating modern house. I someone wants a pumpout then it would help a sale if not then it wouldn't, don't think it would increase the value much.

 

Why are you thinking resale value, if you're not 100% sure about buying a boat then don't. It's not just the cost of the boat you will also have to spend between £3000-£4000 a year in running costs, mooring, licence, insurance, maintenance, fuel etc. In my case around the cost of a family holiday, this year we went out in April and early August had great weather. Most people got wet, some very wet, next time it could be my turn, would that make a difference, not to me, but it would to my daughter, wet grumpy teenager, not fun.

 

Ken

[woolies]

HI ken , we have 2 teenage daughters to. Yeh i know about running cost how they increase all the time anything to do boating seem costly. We’ve recently sold our yacht which we have had moored in north Wales i was involved in a RTA accident year back and can no longer handle the boat. Previous to this we as a family have had many enjoyable holidays on narrow boats. So were seriously thinking of buying a narrow boat yes it may not be for us but if we don’t give it a shot we will never know. Feedback I’m getting is keeping it simple and light interior, we seem to get puzzled over the toilet now! Pump out does seem better but it’s getting places to pump out and having no toilet till you do. One option was to have two types but that’s 4 foot out of our living space. my wife finds some of the locks hard to handle so that’s why the bow thrusters seemed good option there’s nothing worse than the look of a owner of a grp boat in a lock when wife enters. We will look at few more second hand boats before final decision but were leaning to a new build. Thanks for your help. Mark hi bottle, cross bed how does that work is there room for a double bed, like you idea about 2 toilets but we got told of builder it would take 4 foot of living space up little off putting. cheers mark

Edited September 13, 2007 by woolies

[KenK]

my wife finds some of the locks hard to handle so that’s why the bow thrusters seemed good option there’s nothing worse than the look of a owner of a grp boat in a lock when wife enters.

 

Funny my wife has that effect on some people to, must be a woman thing

 

Sorry couldn't resist

 

Ken

[wrigglefingers]

my wife finds some of the locks hard to handle so that’s why the bow thrusters seemed good option there’s nothing worse than the look of a owner of a grp boat in a lock when wife enters.

 

Easy solution - go in first, use your long centre line to hold the boat to the side (controlled by spare crew member or steerer) and let GRP in second.

 

Shep

 

(worked out by a woman I hasten to add!)

[KenK]

Easy solution - go in first, use your long centre line to hold the boat to the side (controlled by spare crew member or steerer) and let GRP in second.

 

Shep

 

(worked out by a woman I hasten to add!)

 

Yeh, but that spoils all the fun. There's nothing better than being waved into a Thames lock nearly full of a million pounds of plastic boats, the look of fear on the faces of the owners when they see this tatty narrowboat heading for that last very tight space is priceless. I think Thames lock keepers do it on purpose, they always have a grin on their faces.

 

 

Ken

[woolies]

hi ken, any advice on on board power i have to teenagers who want go any where with out hair dryer tongs moblies stereo`s, i know power can be a pr.oblem the mooring were looking at doesnt have power.

now the builder said with right set up we dont need on shore power,what do you think? cheers mark

Edited September 13, 2007 by woolies

[KenK]

hi ken, any advice on on board power have to teenagers who want go any where with out hair dryer tongs moblies stereo`s, i know power can be a pr.oblem the mooring were looking at doesnt have power.

now the builder said with right set up we dont need on shore power,what do you think? cheers mark

 

Hi Mark,

We have six 110Amp batteries which supply both a 12 V lighting / pumps side and a Sterling 3000W pure sine wave inverter for the 230V AC. We use a standard 230V fridge, 19 inch LCD TV with an internal DVD. Tesco direct are good for low power items at low cost, ie cheap 1200W hoover, small hairdryer , and CD/Radio micro system. So far we have only used a standard TV aerial clamped to an extending pole we bought from B&Q, normally used to clean upstairs windows from the ground, usually get fair to excellent reception. DVD for when TV is not possible.

We do have a shore connection but don't use it much, very straightforward, plug in switch the manual switch to shorepower, job done. We did use it for a couple of days this holiday as we moored in Bristol harbour so didn't moove or run the engine. You certainly don't need it but it is useful to have the option and it does not add much to the cost.

 

 

Ken

[anhar]

hi ken, any advice on on board power i have to teenagers who want go any where with out hair dryer tongs moblies stereo`s, i know power can be a pr.oblem the mooring were looking at doesnt have power.

now the builder said with right set up we dont need on shore power,what do you think? cheers mark

The "right set up" in your case Mark, ie. that shore power is not necessarily required, means a built in diesel generator with an inverter/charger of suitable capacity and matching battery bank. Have mains sockets around the boat just as in a house and you'll always have mains power on tap to run hairdryers and most appliances you want (within the capacity of the system) anywhere on the boat there's a socket. Systems can be very sophisticated, for example auto generator sensing so that it starts up automatically whenever the batteries' remaining capacity falls below a certain level.

 

The actual capacity of the inverter, batteries and generator will depend upon your requirements. I'm sure the builder if they are good can advise. It's only money that is needed.

 

regards

Steve

Edited September 14, 2007 by anhar

[woolies]

Hey every one thanks’ for all your help you must ge fed up of us newbie’s asking all these questions but you been great help,One more question if you don’t mind if I decided to go down the path of second-hand boat is it possible to change name of the boat and is there any legal formalities involved or do you have to keep the name that’s on the boat. Thanks again mark

The "right set up" in your case Mark, ie. that shore power is not necessarily required, means a built in diesel generator with an inverter/charger of suitable capacity and matching battery bank. Have mains sockets around the boat just as in a house and you'll always have mains power on tap to run hairdryers and most appliances you want (within the capacity of the system) anywhere on the boat there's a socket. Systems can be very sophisticated, for example auto generator sensing so that it starts up automatically whenever the batteries' remaining capacity falls below a certain level.The actual capacity of the inverter, batteries and generator will depend upon your requirements. I'm sure the builder if they are good can advise. It's only money that is needed. regardsSteve

wow sounds complex but have an appointment with liverppol boats tues i will mention this to him thanks again for your help mark

[bottle]

Hey every one thanks' for all your help you must ge fed up of us newbie's asking all these questions but you been great help,One more question if you don't mind if I decided to go down the path of second-hand boat is it possible to change name of the boat and is there any legal formalities involved or do you have to keep the name that's on the boat. Thanks again markwow sounds complex but have an appointment with liverppol boats tues i will mention this to him thanks again for your help mark

 

 

There is not a problem in changing the name if you are licensed by BW, you do have to inform them (I believe) but they use the registration (plate) number.

 

If you are licensed by EA (Environment Agency) they use the boat name and you cannot have the same name as any other boat.

 

There are other authorities, but I suspect you will be licence by BW.

 

There are also all the 'old wives tales' and superstition involved.