Ian Mac

Have they said which way along the ship canal? If memory serves me correctly its about £130 to go up and about £30 to go down. Also you will need a certificate of seaworthiness, which will also come at a price, as will the necessary, bits of rope anchor, etc. Plus there is a fee for the use Pomona lock, if you do not have a Bridgewater license. Also, but I'm not sure again when, the river navigation isn't open all the year, just May to September, I think. Not that these things can not be overcome, it just that it will all take time and weather! So £100 = 5 days boating, as long as you beat the stoppages. PS the MSC is boring - but quickish - Weaver sluices to Lowery takes about 5hrs Please can we have the Runcorn and Latchford Canal restored and Runcorn locks, the new Mersey bridge at Runcorn isn't that long off.

I believe that if you would like help on the 9 that you should be contacting the Red Bull office well beforehand, so that they can plan their use of volunteers. Red Bull office is on 01782 785703 normally they require a minimum of 48 hours notice when passing the controlled locks, so I would give much more notice if possible.

Going up the Rochdale 9 - I would allow over 2 hrs as someone else has already said. The record according to Harold Williams the old lock keeper, now sadly deceased, was 35mins "with a steamer" and my personal best is 45mins (mob handed). The art of working the 9 is always use all paddles, fully open, this is particularly true when emptying a lock, if fact its sometimes quicker to run with ALL! paddles open to start with ie all four paddles, both top and bottom open, to drop the top pound below the top gates first, otherwise you could be in for a long wait, you have to make an assessment at the time, about just how much water is coming in over the top gates. The gates are heavy due to each gate being 9ft wide so you need to be almost level before you can push them open. The original gates had bigger paddle holes, but these are deemed unsafe these days, and use to cause flooding anayway. Going up paired make life a lot easier. Do watch out for slip hazards and the stupid landing stages at lock 86 which has no towpath access, in a vain attempt to stop Darwin awards being posthumously handed out. Caused by erecting a glass partition to stop the drunks falling in, which they now sit on top of! We just moor up in Dales St or Duice St. No.2 basin, before the aqueduct and have never had problems, the Jolly Angler pub is worth a visit (on Duice St. - just outside, right and right ) especially on a Monday night, folk night. The Ashton has several nice flights of locks, however some of the locks are quite deep. If its raining it would be very unusual to have any problems, if its fine these days ditto, but you do get some youths around. We just stopped in the lock and went to the Strawberry duck at lock 13. The Swing bridges can be a little tricky, between 16 & 17. As can the one just up the lower peak. We have moored in Hyde and had no problems, can't speak about Ashton. Then we have also moored at Romily and Chadkirk a visit to the Chadkirk capel is well worth it and of course there is the bottom of Marple. Marple locks are a total bugger, they have very heavy bottom paddles. Polish the brass plaques on the seats as you pass - tradition! Don't come through on the weekend of the 13/14 of October as the Manchester IWA are having a canal clean up centred on Dukinfield junction, so there will be lots of people dragging stuff out of the cut. Its just over 40 yrs since OP ASH when 1000 people turned out to start the restoration of the canal. Got the st. name wrong whoops! Jolly is on Duice St.

Someone asked about why someone didn't control the level. I suspect the level was being controlled. Ever since the larger by-washes were put in to provide extra commercial water to ICI, back in the 1970's the levels of the T&M have been closely monitored remotely. These days this is done from a laptop. I've seen the one for the control of the BCN in action, its a very impressive system. It allows the area engineer to open and close sluices remotely, it has automatic paging systems for alerts. Also again back in the 1970's a special system was install at Anderton to control the bottom level of the T&M during flood conditions. An automatic syphon weir, capable of dropping the level by 50mm per hour, was installed, which is really impressive when it starts, having seen it in action. So there was no need for a little man to rush out an lift paddles like we think happened in the days of old, much though we like the imagine, that's not what would happen, these days. As to walking the length, it does get regularly walked and the state of everything is recorded, the guy doing this length is no fool and understands the canal, so I do not think we can lay blame there. As was suggested at the start of this thread it was probably a sink hole which are really hard to detect. The rain would have made the whole bank more unstable and thus allowed it to blow, especially given the way it was constructed. Don't forget this is a very early piece of canal, and they didn't know how to do it very well, and they were already cutting corners - compare the stone work of the T&M with that used on the Bridgewater. There is are other possibilities, one is that an ancient sough runs under the canal at that point which was not known about and it was that which failed, badgers had tunnelled into the embankment from adjoining property, undoubtedly we will get to know the cause in the fullness of time.

Yes they can! This is money which is required for an unplanned event. It has to be found from somewhere. Now C&RT are a charity this is an ideal time for us to act we are no longer constrained to just run to the government cap in hand, who in current times would just say NO go away. So lets look at thing in the round, there are how many boaters going to give £5? Lets say 10,000 so they have raised $50K they need £2000K - its in the noise as a lump of money - its not the boaters this appeal is aimed at but the bigger charity providers, also now C&RT can also ask the local authorities effected to pay some money, this could not have happened under the old government owned scheme. There are quiet a few authorities effected, all those on the Cheshire Ring to start with, will directly suffer, Peel Holding (the owners of the Bridgewater canal) will suffer, the Hire companies will suffer, the marina companies will suffer, if they all cough up a bit, we may get somewhere and not loose next years dredging program, or what ever else the management choose to trim. Also because 10,000 people can be demonstrated to have paid there is a large stick to hit these other bodies with. This is very similar to what happened when the Bridgewater canal breached in the seventies. BW have never been able to do what the MSC did then and ask for additional monies. This is a really good example of why C&RT should be in the third sector. By the way the contingency fund has already being hit. The Rochdale and HNC floodings were not without unexpected cost. Not as much as this one, but it has still eaten away some of the fund. The management would not be doing their job if they did not have a contingency number in the budget, but the hope is always that it does not get spent as until it does its just a number on a piece of paper. It only becomes real once it has to be spent. Its like the savings I have been building up to buy an new computer, if the boat sinks, it will get spent on fixing that first, the new computer would have to wait.

Interesting that, given name 1 is an elected trustee representing the hire companies. It would appear Nigel is even more astute than I thought. -- Cheers Ian Mac

A different approach is to buy a new car radio from argos, they have some super radios, we bought one last year, it pairs with my phone, so I can play all the music I have on that, oh and answer phone calls, but I find it easier to pick the handset up to do that . It also plays CDs and has a USB memory stick port, cost about £70 including the speakers, although you can pay more and get waterproof speakers which I think may be better. It sounds nice as well. -- cheers Ian Mac

Ring up and ask your local C&RT volunteer co-ordinator if you can have one, you may be surprised. However you will be "working" for C&RT, so you will have to follow their rules and their health and safety regime, which will include the compulsory training and induction. And at the moment they appear to want regular commitment. These things may change as time passes and they learn how to use and motivate their volunteers. -- Cheers Ian Mac

No, I was just attempting to informing the members what I believe the volunteers are taught, ie that use of centre lines should be encouraged when boats use locks, and why this is being taught, its very helpful for new hire boaters who don't have the practical experience of boiating, its also good for regular boaters as it may teach them a new and better trick. As I think you have spotted, I do not necessarily agree with the use of a centre line, in all cases, there are other methods, but the question is are they as safe? Can they be taught quickly and easily? Not everybody would want to strap into locks for example, it takes a lot of skill and it is very easy to loose a finger in the rope if you get it wrong. One of the things that can go wrong is two paddles being drawn together, as another person arrives at the lock tail, and starts to be helpful, something that lock wheeler has to be alter for. But there are ways of making sure that your in control, shouting at people gives the impression that your on the edge of being out of control, we should not be here to shout and ball at other people, but to help and educate them, it makes the canals a more pleasant place to be for all, including the new volunteer lock keepers, and Mr Grummpy boater, who in his opinion knows everything there is to know -- cheers Ian Mac

It was a great sport as you say, the odd time I would be sitting in the cabin with Charlie or Johnny they would suddenly pop out of the cabin, usually just before a boat came into view, and then wait and watch, they were ace wind up merchants, but if you were working their boat you had to get it right by their rules or else. Definitely one rule for us and another for them, as you say. I once had the misfortune to follow Jack and his misses down the shroppie to cut end, every gate left wide open, it was blumming hard work, epecially as the lockie shouted at us to come back and get all them gates shut, when we tried the same system - such is life. -- cheers Ian Mac

Wrong on both counts watch the golden age of canals. going down hill Strapped in, then out of gear, Uphill out of gear, then caught on a paddle, steerer the closes gate, no rubbing, the boat basically nudges up the back of the lock and then the comes forwards and up the gate, agreed no rope used on a motor for this. You bought your own rope work at Claytons so you looked after it. Some boatmen as I wrote before left the boat in gear and rubbed the fender up the gates, this wares the fender out fairly quickly, and there is no need to do that. They did fit reigns sometimes to pull the boat into gear once it had descended, not required in these modern days of ladders everywhere. All butties were held with the mast line, acts line a modern centre line, also helps with gate opening, remember the boatman had got operating the canal down to the minimum effort required. The problem these days is the new standard location of dollies at locks are aligned more with the requirements of a modern cruiser rather than a traditional boat, as are their substance, they will not stop piff, so we have lost some more traditional canal elements. Its like all the starting hocks have been removed as they were considered a trip hazard, because the person making the decision didn't know what they were or why they were there. Other things which have gone missing, gate stab boards, very few left. The step off handles at the lock tails, strapping posts at junctions, unless they were stone, replaced by dinky doo little signs, which look nice but get really in the way. And soon to go curtsey of the coroner, those nice little foot bridges on the S&W, because someone may misuse it as a bike bridge. As to how a centre line works, its a triangle, between the centre of the boat the middle lock dolly and the steerer at the stern of the boat. The steerer should stop any aft movement because he has the rope held under tension and this force is translated into an equalish force holding the centre of the boat against the lock side, which should also stop excessive forwards motion. It appears to work well for those that prefer to use it in my observation. -- cheers Ian Mac

ditto No need to switch your engine off, unless maybe a pertol 2 stroke engine, different rules may apply - or the Thames and even there the rules appear to be changing. Hatton Locks - now there's a nice flight - I assume we are talking about going up hill here - the water enters all along the side through a set of ports if your in there alone then its open the offside paddles first - then the boat side. If your a pair then its lift the side opposite the longer hulled boat first, this tends to pin them to the wall, then the other side, if its a pair of working boats, you can lift both sets if your mob handed, may be using a mast rope, which is a good trick, a bit like a centre line I suppose. So I'm not sure why they banged around so much. The rope should have held them, wasn't there can't say, but it seems odd. There's a neat trick with the centre line and your back offside dolly when working the Rochdale single handed going uphill, but it requires a decent length centre line. Also it doesn't work well with a full length boat as the soughs just blow you out, you just need off side paddles first with them and wait a bit, before you pull the boat side. Like you I never use a centre line, can't, no centre attachment point, I'm a member of the RTBC, so I wouldn't anyway would be drummed out. Most locks are designed for one or at the most two person operation, so lifting both paddles at the same time is not normally a good thing. On a lot of locks its half or there abouts (depends on the cut), walk over the other side full paddle, them back for the other half, or the steerer does this last half and then gate paddles, because the other person is off to set the next lock, and the steer has had time to close the gates and walk up to the lock head. Boat out of gear all the time. Works well, there are occasional funnies like some of the newer Cheshire locks can be a buggers but we normally don't use that side as some of them are well thin. The art of lock operation is efficiency and timing, there many a time I've been single handed up Cheshire locks, and I've been able to overtake other boats. NO slamming of gates, no banging around, no furious revving in reverse, no running around, steady, ordered and consistent wins. However if I had a cruiser I think I would use a centre line or make sure I held well back in locks, I think its more efficient, depend the length, but most of the time I like you think you don't need a centre line as long as you understand your boat and what you are doing. Also I do think as I hope was understood before that the volunteer was over enthusiastical, and should have talked first then acted accordingly, rather than whipping a paddle up, but I do think the OP did over react to the situation. As to props in locks these tend to get used not at the bottom but on the way up so do cause damage to the walls and their seal, wereas the soughs enter the water, below the normal level so the material in the walls is always saturated, so tends to stay there, rather than a dried out joint. You can see similar damage being done in places where boats often moor and the water walls are all falling down due to people who moor up and then run there engines in gear, it wreaks the joints between the stones it washes the fines out then there is nothing there to bind the course material together so this also falls out then the wall collapses. -- Cheers Ian Mac

Other than the training notes issued to volunteers which I have seen, I am not sure, where it is written down. However the notes make it quiet clear that lines are prefer to the use of propellers and engines, for the reason I have already explained. As I also attempted to explain before, the use of a centre lining is a safer way of operating a lock. It stops the use of the prop and thus removing one problem if someone should fall in, and it keeps the boat steady. If you know your lock well and understand the flow and understand the amount of thumping your boat will receive then its your choice to do without a centre line, without all the revving of engines associated with some users, however if you are being slow to operate the lock at a busy time, I would expect the lock keeper to ask you to proceed properly and in a timely manor. ie use a centre line and have all the paddles full open soon after the initial flood again dependant on the lock and canal - local lock keeper knowledge, ask them. Fender rubbing up gates has always been frowned upon by the waterway management, and a lot of orgininal boatmen, especially if the boat is left in gear, I got well Bo***cked by Charlie Atkins when I did it as a young lad - "Only Mersey Weaver men do that" "You'll get snagged under" "It'll knacker your fender" were some of his retorts. Basically there is no need for it, as long as one operates the lock in a efficient manor. -- cheers Ian Mac

Back out of lurking mode. Just for the record lock keepers - volunteers or full time are in theory trained to operate locks safely, according to the latest H&S recommendation which C&RT are using, and tell other people how they could be improving their techniques to keep them and other safe and efficient. So this proves the volunteer met here, definitely was not fully trained, as he? should have been asking you to use your centre line, or other approved method of securing your boat, whilst you operated the lock, before he touched anything. I would suggest he was being very keen as new volunteers tend to be, and a quiet word with him would have been useful, and his minder maybe. As part of the keepers conversation, he should have found out if you needed any special help, and then acted accordingly. I think the OP defiantly over reacted, to the guy pulling one paddle, this would as stated elsewhere would drawn the boat forwards and away from the cill, the thing that one has to manage is any bounce if the boat should touch the bottom gates - thus the need for a centre line, safer and greener than using the engine. The use of engines causes erosion of the lock pointing and should be discouraged, as this erosion then causes the locks to leak, and we get a bigger more costly problem, longer stoppages and generally a bigger bill for the maintenance of our waterways Problems can arise if both paddles are drawn and the boat is deep drafted, and the boat bounces and everybody concerned isn't on the ball, but I suspect the volunteer would really have had to have gone for it with a pleasure boat to get it into any problem what so ever, so there was plenty of time rather than starting to shout about the place. It is my experience that the volunteers at Bosley are doing a really great job, the locks are in good fettle and easy to operate, and I have found them to be helpful and courteous. As to why there are volunteers at Bosley and not Marple, for example, it is because its near to where the volunteers live. C&RT would like all locks to have volunteers but at the moment there are not enough volunteers, however they are looking at how to get more on the less cheery spot flights, these cheery shots tend to be near where all the socially mind people tend to live, an interesting catch 22 type problem. Chimneychian I love your gas mask chain, a bit rare these days As to which paddle to draw in a broad lock with a single boat - local knowledge is best! Depends on the length of the boat, whether they are correctly using a centre line, and the particular lock design, some are pigs no matter what you do, Rochdale lock doubly so. At the end of the day boating is a contact sport, and we should all remember that. Operating a lock safely, swiftly and efficiently is I believe the best goal, some people are definitely over cautious and precious about operating locks. -- Cheers Ian Mac

Actually I've lurked for a lot longer than 3 yrs, its just I formally signed up 3 years ago -- Cheers Ian Mac - going back to luck mode

The official method is to wind down all paddles, ensuring that the windlass is correctly placed on the spindle, before the ratchet is lifted. As part of the volunteer training they are all taught this, and when they have their H&S test, they would fail for hand braking. The reason is to make sure the paddle does not hit the bottom of the frame and then either shatter or push the frame out. The reason of this is that if someone sees a lock keeper hand braking, they may be tempted to try this and get it wrong, - as has probably happened recently at both Marple and Diggle, the result being a broken paddle/frame and an unnecessary stoppage whilst the broken paddle is repaired. Not all paddles have spindles which can be easily hand braked, unless your a real member of the RTBC, and have hands of iron It is known to go on but it is not encouraged, Volunteers are ask to stop people doing inappropriate activities, such as this. They do not have any powers to stop you, but should explain why you should not be doing it. Its all about enabling the canal to cope with all its heavy usage, and allowing everyone to get pleasure.

As it happens Yes, but that's a totally different story -- Cheers Ian Mac British computing still leads the world

So let me get this straight your both infirm, and struggling to operate your boat, and you are slagging of a member of the public because he didn't spring to help you, I don't think that is fair. Maybe if other boaters had been more courteous to our poor volunteer (cups of tea and Hobnobs) he may have been more inclined to help you, maybe he didn't realise you were both struggling so much to operate your boat, using sarcasm will not have helped matters. I know most of us have tried to keep canals friendly places and most of us try and help each other, but these days the number of times one gets put down for doing so, is increasing out of all proportion to the number of extra boats, we are now getting canal rage as a regular occurrence, it use to be very very rare. I've personally seen three example of it so far this summer, and in my opinion all three cases were the result of bad practice or rule breaking, by the people doing the ranting and raging. Its nice to help but it is not mandatory. It may be interesting to know why that lock gate was so stiff, was it some other boater bashing it per chance? Did you ask your volunteer chappie if it had been reported to maintenance so it gets fixed? After all this is part of what they are there to do.

According to the training they receive they are lock keepers NOT lock operators, only those at mechanical locks are operator trained. They are there primary to ensure the YOU operate the lock safely and that the lock is functioning and maintained correctly. Offers of cups of tea may help, Hob Nobs get a better response I find. I already know of several volunteer keepers how have given up or are on the verge of giving up because of the attitudes of some of the boaters. I do have to ask why as you know you wife finds it so hard to operate a lock that you let her ashore to do the task, and don't do the job yourself and leave her to do the easier job of steering.

Since her father Danny died, who lived there before her and was also a great canal person, who we should not forget either.

I think that elsewhere is the best understatement I have seen for a while, you black dog you Crinan, Cally, Forth and Clyde, and the Union, which was very clever as they have put a saddle in the tunnel at the top of the wheel and it doesn't fit any more so it got craned round the problem. M'Harbour, K&A, Thames etc. GU, not really a lot left after that list. I found the inside very comfortable on my trip down the MSC and Weaver with Roger. Shame he's not up to using it any more. The other brother of Lorenz Bros is Paul of Bedford Basin fame. It was he that sold the Joeys, which had become surplice to requirements. It is also Paul who is converting Attila to a house boat from a trip boat, so he can do the narrow canals again, having lived on a wide boat for years and done all the northern waters and a lot of France with her.

Really Sad New

"All he's learnt is churning up the mud and knocking down the banks and that is all he will ever know, I can tell you that" Did I miss something, where is that a quote from? Of course he wound on, they all did, time was money, the "company" was suppose to maintain the cut, they put a channel in, in the proper place. They near shut gates either, a grand tradition, locks were suppose to hold water in either state! or the lock keeper sorted them out, either filling them or draining them. They, Charlie and the other commercial boaters, would be amazed at today's bank protection, and thankful for it, they would also be amazed at some of the other funny "standard practices". One thing I have notice is how the channel has moved now nearly everybody cuts the corner, 40yrs ago it went round the outside of all the bends now there are only special bits of cut which are like that the run from Chester to the Port for example. The rest of the system has been destroyed by people not understand how a boat truly works, especially when loaded.

If you want a super picture of him, Shell took one of him sat in the stern of Gifford in about 1975. They used it as a double spread in their house magazine, I did have a copy but I think its gone the way of old rope. One of the great shames is that when he died all his possessions were removed of Mendip. The radio he had was a great museum piece in its own right, and worked. He told me all about getting accumulators charged in the pre war days and how they had several sets up and down the cut, which as a small lad he would be sent of to swap for a flat set, off the boat. Charlie use to light the fire on Spey and move in, when we moored at tunnel end PB, "just in case you were going to come down for the weekend", he liked our cabin, and it saved his coal I remember him telling me all about the Welsh cut and the run down from Norbury, he had a fantastic memory for detail. He also told me how he learnt to spell all the place names, sitting on the roof of the boat with his father and a slate to write on, copying the names off railway wagons, and other boats. He also use to never looked where the front of the boat was, he just knew where it was, and ran on the special tram lines which his mind had mapped out in the cut. A wonderful gentleman, who I still sadly miss. I also believe there is some voice recording of him, taken by the Mikron Theatre company. These and others may well be making a future appearance if funding becomes available.

When you find them you will discover it says Stour on the side, and has a full length cabin, and what you will not be able to see is that the prop shaft is bent throw 45 degrees where it comes out of the stern tube. I think Chris Cheetham also had a part share along with the Aspeys. She was certainly hogging at this time. All wooden boats hog, given half a chance, especially ones with big heavy Bolinders in them,one stops them by part loading themwe run with about 4ton in currently which isn't quite enough - need more concrete fence posts. I remember them going on Worsley dock and we (the Spey Crowd) descended upon them, we knew precisely where to poke the rotten planks, to show them just how knackered she really was. They sold it to the man who set about rebuilding her, everything was brand new, he did a really nice job, but it took a long time. Think he was at the BCLM doing it. I must look too because I think I have a picture of them on Worsley dock somewhere.