robkg

Sorry if this is but seeing as this issue has been touched on I would like to ask for opinions. Our boat is powered by a Kelvin K2 which works beautifully in all respects apart from one minor irritation. Occasionally, when trying to de-select reverse I have considerable difficulty. Never a problem de-selecting forward (or reverse most of the time). I have always succeeded after a few seconds of tugging on the speedwheel but it can be a touch unnerving. I constructed the engine controls myself and the gearing is such that from reverse I have to turn the wheel one full turn (360deg) for neutral and a further one full turn for forward. I don't mind living with this, but if anyone has any suggestions for a cure I would pleased to hear them. Rob

If I could have a pound for every thread asking for help which begins with "I have a Webasto Thermotop C ......" I would be a rich man!

Why do you not like your AGM batteries. I have fitted 4 x 200AH Victron Gel batteries which are approx 2 years old, am I going to regret this sometime in the future?

I installed a system very similar to the one you describe when I fitted out Grace. I too have about 1500 litres of useable capacity. The system works extremely well and I would recommend it, but I would offer two things to think about. Firstly 1500 litres weighs 1.5 tonnes and if the holding tanks are located at the bow or stern, there will be a marked and potentially undesirable effect on the boats trim. If both the sewage and water tanks are at the same end of the boat then filling and emptying would need to be synchronised to avoid further exacerbating the trim problem. Secondly when paying for a pump out, it may be unwise to assume that the boatyard is going to be happy to spend half an hour carrying out the job for their normal charge. They may or may not complete the job but there might be some grumbling and moaning to contend with. For my part, I fitted my own home made, self pump out system, which I use where facilities allow. (No, I don't leave a mess or hold up cassette emptiers! ) Rob

Hi Bill, Just seen your post. I can't agree with you on this. My boat is 70' powered by a K2 and it performs pefectly. When choosing an engine my selection criteria included genuine vintage, v slow running, twin cylinder for the uneven beat and at least 30hp. The k2 was the only engine I was aware of meeting all these needs and with impressive looks too! As far as draught is concerned I disagree that the K2 is only suitable for deep water navigations. My boat swings a 24" x 24" prop and has a stern draught of approx. 2' 6" - not had a depth problem yet. Rob

Hi Chris, Of course I cannot prove the reason why every single individual unit has failed in the past, but I do have evidence that dirty diesel is not the cause of rapid carboning up in the case of one of these units. I did not say that my experience proves that they won't run on red diesel. I was making the point that in my experience the cause of the carboning up problems experienced by many users of these units is not down to the fact that the diesel is of suspect quality. I installed my heater from new and throughout it's life I ran it on diesel supplied direct from a national fuel distributor i.e. the fuel I used came direct from a tanker distributing thousands of litres every day. This same company distibutes fuel to at least two inland marinas on a regular basis. During the life of my heater I tried three batches of fuel from this supplier, all with certificates of conformity, all three caused rapid carboning of the heater's burner. To summarise, my heater never saw dirty, old or untraceable fuel in it's life and yet it had two replacement burners fitted by Webasto UK in it's short (<400 hours) life. Eventually after taking the dealer to court they agreed to settle by refunding the purchase price plus compensation. Given everything that has appeared on this forum (albeit anecdotal) plus Paul Sylvans court victory, are you able to support the view that, despite your apparent satisfaction of your own unit, these heaters could not be described as reliable high quality devices for heating boats on red diesel (as that is what they are sold as being)? Rob

Hi Chris, Please stop perpetuating the "dirty Diesel" myth as a reason why so many Webastos fail regularly. My experience proves otherwise. They simply should not be sold into the inland boating market for use on red diesel and the fact that they still are is despicable. My experience (detailed in my previous posts) along with Paul Sylvan's experiences ought to be enough for a reputable manufacturer or distributer to withdraw these units from this market. Rob

Hi, My set up is similar to Alnwick. 70', approx 2' 6'' draught, Kelvin K2 through 1:1 gearbox turning a 24'' x 24'' prop. Feels just about right for slow revs cruising and sociable boat passing. Rob

Hi Pete, During my long sorry saga with a Webasto Thermotop I encountered this suggestion. The purpose of altering the fan speed is to optimse the fuel to air ratio to obtain the cleanest burn. Toby Hague (Keto Ltd) sent me the diagnostic equipment and a CO meter with instructions on how to do this. I tried the heater on all available settings with no improvement to the heaters ability to run. Subsequently Toby visited the boat and repeated the exercise. He concluded that the CO readings were optimal and had always been with the original factory settings. One thing that I found interesting is that the fan speed could be heard significantly changing speed with changes in voltage, and may well be changing air/fuel ratio as a result. So I suspect that unless you can provide the heater with a constant voltage (only possible with a voltage regulator of some kind) then your burn conditions will vary anyway. Rob

Hi Nick, It is my belief (also supposition) that the differences in individuals experiences with Webastos (and Eberspachers) is down to two factors. The first being the duty cycle the heaters undergo, driven by the plumbing arrangement and the useage pattern (i.e. long running periods or short bursts) Long periods at half power are bad news for carbon build up. This is not the fault of installer or the user. It is that the heater is incapable of working as a boat heater in some conditions. The second being the variability of the red diesel coming out of different refineries/distribution depots. Not that I think any of this fuel fails to reach the necessary British standards, just that some areas of the country may have fuel with lower sulpher content. This is no excuse for these heaters not to work. They are sold to run on red diesel not just the best end of the spectrum of red diesel available. After all, who amongst us carries a portable test kit on our boat so that we can check the sulpher content/cetane rating of a suppliers fuel prior to having the tank filled? As I commented on in my previous post, your supposition that dirty tanks/condensation may be a cause is a red herring. I only used fresh clean fuel direct from a distributor, accompanied by a certificate of conformity. I had fuel from four seperate deliveries, all of which caused excessive carbon build up. This same distributor also supplies at least two inland marinas. Rob

Hi Alex, I was given the last burner replaced by Toby. It is badly coked up. I take your point that the burner may be recoverable but as they were changed by dealers, it was probably more cost effective for them to fit a new one. Incidentally I have read other posters views that the cleaning can be done by the user, but in my view this does not legitimise the use of this type of heater for narrow boat use. How can it be acceptable to have to carry out this operation every 100 hours of use? In my case the fault was more serious than this as the heater would shut itself down after only a few hours from having a new burner fitted, and thereafter every 2 hours or so. I would like to offer a warning to any of you buying items for self fit out. I bought the heater a year before first commissioning it. I had explained to the dealer that this is what I was going to do and was given assurances that buying early would not adversly affect me as the two year warranty would run from the date of first commissioning the unit. When I experienced difficulties when running the heater for the first time, the dealer was very reluctant to help and insisted that the fault must lie with the installation. In frustration I said that if they were not willing to help me then I would return the heater for a refund. Their response was that I could not have a refund as the heater was not new! So be warned - what some dealers say to gain a sale and what they are actually willing to do bear no relationship to each other. Rob

Hi all, I thought it was worth relaying my experiences to add to the melting pot. After buying a Webasto Thermotop C in 2005, and installing it myself in 2006, I suffered continuous heater failures from within hours of first commisioning it until I removed and returned it in November 2008. During this time the heater was tested by both the dealer from whom I purchased it and Webasto UK. Both maintained that it was faultless. Another dealer selling into the offshore market (Keto Ltd), despite having no vested interest, was the only organisation prepared to visit my boat to investigate my difficulties without threatening me with a charge. Toby Hague (Keto) spent six hours attempting to discover the cause of the heater fault. He concluded that the heater did indeed possess a fault but was unable to diagnose the cause. He then emailed Webasto UK with his visit report, and asked them to help. No response was ever forthcoming from Webasto to my knowledge. During my ownership of this heater I derived no use from it as for the majority of the time the boat was on dry land, being fitted out. I finally issued a claim against the dealer through the county court. During the court hearing, the judge informed me that I had no claim as the heater was three years old. (this stance taken by the judge is incorrect according to trading standards who told me that the sale of goods act provides me with some protection for up to six years) The judge did say that I may be entitled to some costs however and suggested to the defendant that he may wish to make an offer to settle. He did so to the tune of £1200 with the proviso that I did not mention his company in relation to my experiences in public. Hence the reason I have not mentioned them by name. One other red herring I would like to dispell is that Webasto heaters carbon up due to dirty, inferior quality red diesel. My heater had three new burners in it's short life (300 hours approx.) I had only run it on fuel bought from Countrywide Fuels, meeting the required British standards for red diesel (and stored in clean containers). They informed me that they also supply two inland marinas. My thanks go to Toby Hague (Keto) for his help and support and to Paul Sylvan who provided me positive encouragement on several occasions. Absolutely no thanks to the dealer I bought the heater from in the first place or to Webasto UK who as far as I can tell, continue to sell in to a market aware that their product is unsuitable for the fuel used in that market. Rob

Hi Chris, I would respectfully like to challenge one element of your calculation. If the alternator generates 280W and is 50% efficient, then the power input requirement is 560W - agreed. However ignoring inefficiences in the drive train, the human energy input is 560W, not 19 horsepower. i.e. the gear ratio of the drive train is irrelevant to the power. (just multiplies up the torque requirement) I should just add that 560W is still a lot of power for a human to generate.

Hi again, there clearly is a different logic sequence used in our two heaters. My heater when running on circulation only, would always relight and run on full power, or put another way would never ignite straight in to half power. Although explaining exactly why my heater never functioned correctly is largely academic now I no longer have it, I still would be interested to find out. The dealer who sold it to me maintained that the sequences my heater went through were impossible and would not accept any evidence to the contrary. Does anyone know of someone who fundamentally understands these heaters and may be able to shed light on the differences in the software logic. In my experience this would not include two of the countries main dealers or Webasto UK. The only obvious potential differences are that mine was a 24v unit and I am guessing yours is 12v, or the age of the heaters. Mine was purchased in August 2005. P.S. I apologise to the OP for hijacking this thread.

Hi Chris, The heater will only cool to 56degC (and hence come on at FULL power again) if a large cooling load is put on the system, such as opening a cold radiator valve. Categorically NOT in my case. Your information is very interesting. Does your heater often (or ever) switch from half power to full power? It was when doing this that the glow pin/flame sensor on my heater used to cool sufficiently to cause the control software to incorrectly think that the flame had extinguished and consequently shut the heater off. This would occur approximately once per hour throughout the time I had the heater (from new).

Hi Nick, With the heater running at full power (5kW) the return water would gradually increase in temp. i.e. rads were dissipating less than 5kW. But as the return water reached 66 degC, the heater would switch down to half heat mode (2.5kW). The return water would then gradually cool suggesting that the rads were dissipating more than 2.5kW. Should this cycle be incorrect for a Thermotop C then I agree, it should be easy for either a main dealer or the manufacturers to acertain but they both maintained the unit was faultless. It took another (non inland waterways) Webasto main dealer to discover that the unit had a fault (repeated erroneous flame failure cut outs) although he was unable to determine the cause. Hi Chris, In answer to your question, yes I did run the heater on one rad. only. Under those conditions the heater behaved differently. i.e. Full heat up to 66 degC, switch down to half heat but water temp. continues to rise up to 76 degC, at which point heater switched down to circulation only. Water then cools to 56 degC when burner would fire back up on full heat. And cycle began again.

I am biased having bought two shells from him, but I can recommend Roger Fuller. I know that he has built at least one butty before along with many other variations in design. He is based in Stone, Staffs.

Hi Chris, In repying to your post I am getting a distinct deja vu feeling. I don't disagree that your description may be how yours functions, but with a different load on the heater it may behave slightly differently. From start up: full power until return water reaches 66degC Heater switches to half power. On a small load (e.g. one radiator) return water will continue to rise to 76degC at which point burner will switch off leaving circulation only. On a larger load (5 rads in my case) then half power (2.5kW) will result in return water cooling very gradually. (rads dissipating more than 2.5kW of heat) Eventually the return water temp. falls to 56degC at which point the heater switches to full power. To summarise my heater would run continuously between 56degC and 66degC, switching between half and full power. My heater categorically performed in the way I have described above. Yours may have a different logic. I don't think it makes any difference, but mine was a thermotop C 24 volt. Incidentally two main dealers and Webasto UK all tested my heater and none could diagnose the cause of a fault. As you probably have read in other posts, due to continuous failure to function correctly I was eventually refunded my money plus costs by the dealer who sold it to me three years earlier

Hi, There could be a variety of plumbing faults that could be contributing to your described symptoms. However I can suggest a couple of pointers. Firstly, the water circulation pumps fitted to the heaters are very puny and will not give sufficient flow if there are more than a few elbows, isolation valves or other restrictions in the circuit. Also the main loop needs to be 22mm copper, not 15mm. If necessary you could try fitting an external secondary pump to boost the flow. (in my case the installation manuals failed to inform me of these requirements) Are you sure that your rads and calorifier are balanced? i.e. is all the hot water taking a short cut, (e.g. through the engine block) missing out most of the items in the circuit. In my experience I found the outlet temp. of the thermotop C to be disappointingly low (around 65oC). This is significantly lower than my house central heating. So your rads will never get blisteringly hot. Good Luck (As a Webasto owner you'll need it!)

Entirely agree with Ray, just to add one minor point. The bulkhead fitting will probably need to be drilled out to remove the reduced diameter ring in the middle (which is there to act as a stop so both pipe ends would be fully inserted). This is necessary to allow the fitting to be slid over the pipe.

Hi Richard, I'm sorry if I appear to have missed your point. The advice to use over capacity rads and a room stat did not originate from me, although the principle of keeping the unit working at full heat (flat out) does make some sense to me. My point is that whether or not a room stat is good, bad or irrelevent to the performance of the heater, it should not have to be the customer who has to try to work this out. If the installation and operation manuals state: "Do not control this heater with a remote thermostat as this will cause premature coking up of the burner." or alternatively "This heater should always be controlled using a remote thermostat to ensure that it does not run at half power for extended periods of time as this will cause premature coking up of the burner" Then I would have some tolerance of premature coking should the advice not be followed. In my case, no such advice was given by either the manufacturer or distributor, just an assurance that it would give many trouble free years service running on red diesel. It did not!

Hi Richard, The bottom line is that the Webasto Thermotop C is not suitable for heating a narrowboat when running on red diesel. Paul Sylvan had his case proved in court. I have received a full refund plus compensation from a main dealer after settling in court three years after purchasing the unit. Why are you "thinking slap wrist"? Have you lost sight of what you bought the heater for in the first place? To you and everyone else scrabbling about to work out under what conditions you may get some degree of use out of these: YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO If you want your heating on for one hour why should you have to run it for two? If you want your heating on for 24 hours per day why should you have to spend hundreds of pounds in servicing costs to do so? If you want to run it on red after it was sold to you as suitable for red, why should you be contemplating secondary tanks for alternative fuels? Why do I get the impression that many of you are prepared to live with the inadequacies rather than confront the manufacturers/dealers?

Hi Richard, The view that the Webasto heater should not be run on half heat (2.5kW) for extended periods of time (and therefore the arrangement described in my previous post being recommended), was provided by a main distributor in the UK although not selling into the canal market. I prefer not to name them in case I cause them any difficulties with Webasto as they were the only party that behaved reasonably and honourably during my sorry saga of Webasto ownership. Incidentally they also said that in their view the Thermotop C units were not suitable for use on red diesel but the air heaters definitely were. Your comment about red diesel being OK when it leaves the refinery illustates my point exactly. Whilst it may hold some truth, how many boat owners fill their tanks at the refinery? The units should be suitable to run on the diesel sold by boatyards, marinas etc., or not sold at all! If the solution is to fit extra filters then why are extra filters not supplied with the units when they are sold? I personally think that what you were told was a smoke screen to blame the fuel quality, rather than the inadequacies of the heaters to cope with red diesel. In my case I was able to trace the supply of red diesel that the heater had been run on from new. This was from a nationwide distributor and had only been stored in a clean tank for short periods of time. So I strongly refute the view that the heaters only give problems when run on fuel from "dodgy" sources. Lastly you say that your heater has coked up recently. After how many running hours since last service was this?

I have fitted a home made pump out system in "Grace". The system comprises of a Macerator type loo with a remote holding tank, a 240v submersible pump capable of handling solids permanently located in the holding tank, hard wired to a switch (run from the boat's inverter) an access hatch in the top of the tank for replacement of the pump should it be necessary, a suitable tank fitting with permanent piping to a gunwhale mounted brass deck fitting. a layflat hose (approx 1.5" dia) with ball valves at both ends and a quick release arrangement at one end for attachment to the brass deck fitting. The hose is stowed coiled in a bag in the bow locker. Total cost was approximately £100. So it will shortly have paid for itself. Since Grace was launched last summer I have used this arrangement on five occasions so far, without any problems. If anyone would like further details let me know.