Neil2

I have a theory that virtually all dogs love the canals, even those that don't take to water. I believe it's something to do with the constant stimulation - our three dogs will sit/lie all day watching the world go by at three mph or whatever, and of course you have a dog walk on the doorstep 24/7. Therefore, I don't think it matters very much what sort of dog you go for. There's pros and cons with every breed. The only real practical consideration I would take into account is how easy/difficult it is to get your dog clean/dry. The lack of space relative to a house we have found causes problems on very wet days and when the towpath is very muddy. Mind you we do have three dogs. Most dog owners do tend to stick with breeds/types they are used to, and if you love springers why not stick with them? A few years ago we came across a couple with two great danes on board and they were clearly the only dog for them, despite the obvious practical problems and the fact that they rarely make it into double figures. If you want a dog made for the canals, I recommend a "skipperkee", I've probably spelled it wrong, which is a small dog of dutch origin, bred as a watchdog for barges. I know an old couple who have one, and it is amazing to see this little fella scampering around like a squirrel - great character, fearless, and they are used to the sound of heavy machinery as well. On your initial point, I have strong views myself on the relationship of the KC with breed longevity. My mother had a cavalier king charles spaniel who suffered terribly and died prematurely because of what we now know to be irresponsible breeding practices pretty much brought about by so called KC breed standards. My personal fondness for greyhounds and lurchers is partly to do with the fact that they haven't been been genetically distorted very much. The down side is they wouldn't get very far in a dog version of brain of britain...

Thanks everyone, it seems I haven't really got enough of an excuse to replace the diesel stove... To be honest I hadn't given this a thought until these comments from the "smoke free marina" owners. Where I live solid fuel is making a big comeback, especially wood burners because of the "carbon neutral" argument, but I suspect city folk take a different view.

I was reading a thread on the liveaboard forum re the relative merits of different types of heating. I am particularly interested as I am considering the purchase of a boat which has one of those Kabola Old English diesel heaters. Our last boat had SF stove. One subject which wasn't discussed was the "anti social" aspect of solid fuel, and it occurred to me that there must be many parts of the network which are smokeless zones, or is there some exemption for canal boats? As we're spending some time this year going much further afield than our normal cruising ground (basically Leeds Liverpool) I just wondered whether this is a consideration and whether you need to keep smokeless fuel on board? Also, I have spoken to a few marina owners who take a very dim view of SF stoves because of the effect on white GRP. I realise this isn't an issue for serious cruisers, but it made me feel a little more self conscious about using SF. Is this a non issue?

Gripfill is a better product than No Nails IMO. You will only get it at the builders merchants though. It's a proper gap filling adhesive.

My experience is that on the waterways, as in life generally, there is a small number of individuals who are basically ignorant and inconsiderate ie they would not moderate their behaviour even if they knew full well it was upsetting someone. I think you are unlucky if you encounter one of these. Much of the behaviour described above can be put down to stress. Despite the fact that most folk are drawn to the waterways because it offers a "stress free" existence, there are circumstances where it can test the nerves, eg when mooring, locking etc. The way people react to stress is often totally out of character. It's true that a quick way to upset someone is to tell/advise them what to do - even if it appears they are a complete novice, - but there's a lot of this on the canals. On the Leeds Liverpool a lady yelled at my wife quite aggressively "ground paddles first!!! ground paddles first!!!" as we were locking up through Gargrave. Anyone who has done these recently knows that some of the ground paddles don't work, of those that do most are virtually impossible to lift until the lock has filled somewhat to ease the pressure. ie you generally have to (carefully) open the gate paddles first. Despite the fact that my wife knew full well she was doing it correctly, she was nonetheless quite upset. Give 'em enough rope though and... I was tied up behind a very smart 55 footer once waiting to go into a lock. The skipper insisted on giving me detailed instructions on how to proceed, how he would enter the lock first, how he would turn to starboard, how I had to be careful of the overflow current, blah blah blah. As he jumped onto his boat I wondered if I should tell him his bow rope was still attached, but then I thought he might be demonstrating some clever springing manoever. As the stern of his boat swung gracefully across the canal with the skipper desperately scrambling down the side deck yelling four letter expetives, I caught sight of his girlfriend down below, quietly reading, probably having seen it all before.

Thanks for those comments everyone. Regarding value it pretty much endorses what I thought myself. PhilR - it's a Teddesley boat, I suspect ex hire but has been extensively changed internally and has a BMC 1.8 rather than the ubiquitous air cooled Lister. As regards the paint job, my experience with GRP is very limited but I imagine it's difficult to get as good a finish as with steel..? Anyway, I can't see much evidence of filler it looks to me more like poor surface preparation but there are a few blisters which give slight cause for concern. In its favour is the fact that it appears to be an "honest" boat, if you know what I mean. Regarding the weather - up here in the North it bucketed down at the end of last week... It's true though, best time to view a boat is on a filthy day.

We are looking for a 45-ish foot Narrowboat at the moment having recently sold a little Springer. Not having vast amounts of spare cash we are limited to looking at older boats, some of which are steel hull with GRP cabin sides/roof. My inclination is to steer clear of these, but we have come across a very tidy 1980 example which is making me question my prejudice. When we sold our boat I had a very open mind as to the value & saw the asking price as very much a "well you've got to start somewhere" value. I was lucky in that the purchaser was equally open minded and we ended up on a figure that seemed to make sense to both of us. But you do have a fair amount to go on with all steel boats and you can see what other similar boats are selling at. What about these increasingly rare GRP types? I'm interested in any opinions, especially if anyone thinks they have a "finite value". What I mean is, however tidy a boat is its value is eventually limited by it's size, is it likely to be the same with glass tops? I should add that the specimen in question has been painted, and not particularly well.

We are between boats at the mo, been to look at a a few today one of which was a 1990 Heritage cruiser on the hard. Very tidy inside but the entire hull below the waterline looked as though it had been machine gunned. I suspect it looks worse than it is because it has recently been blacked, but the Springer I have just sold didn't look like that after it was blacked. We liked the boat very much and might get a surveyor in but as I don't have the experience to know what serious pitting is, I wondered if anyone can advise when to be concerned about it?

Looks like your fella is the long lost brother of our Harvey... Another thing we have found cruising with Greyhounds/Lurchers is they seem to carry a lot of "street cred" when we meet youngsters. We've never had any problems with unruly kids/adolescents as they are always fascinated by the dogs - "are they racers", "how fast do they go", "can they catch rabbits", etc etc. Long dogs for a long boat I reckon.

We've been on all sorts of boats with our dogs, currently two lurchers and a greyhound, and there's no doubt it's the getting on and off that is the problem. Our oldest will stand and tremble at a gap of a few inches between the boat and the bank/pontoon and our sadly deceased dog in his latter years had to be carried. Fortunately (?) he had lost a lot of weight by then.. Having pointed this out, we have managed with two quite large lurchers on a Springer Waterbug, once on the boat they seem very happy curled up on a comfy bed/sofa. One thing we have found is they don't like being left below if my wife and I are on deck, so a cruiser stern boat is probably best, and if you can find one of those that has the nice offset "stair" type companionway that would be the best combination IMO. Another point worth bearing in mind is that with the Springer, being a Vee shaped hull meant that we could always get right in to the side when other flat bottom boats couldn't, making life a lot easier for the nervous dog. We are currently between boats and our next purchasing decision will be heavily influenced by the fact that we have one old dog who is going to find it increasingly difficult to get on board under her own steam. It sometimes feels as though my entire life choices are dictated by our dogs but I wouldn't have any other breed. Greyhounds and lurchers are definately addictive for some reason. Anyway, consider this - some years ago on a hire boat we came across a couple continuously cruising with two Great Danes and if you think a greyhound is a big dog, well... Saw them being fed one morning with the dog food in a couple of washing up bowls! Fantastic.

We've just returned from a couple of days on our boat on the L/L and honestly, the notion that we still can't use the locks until Wednesday and then still have to endure lock restrictions is just too much. The towpaths are absolutely waterlogged, the amount of water coming down the Aire is spectacular, and culverts are gushing everywhere. The Leeds Liverpool canal is like a bad dream. Nothing works properly, it is full of rubbish, BW cannot maintain water levels, and have a take it or leave it attitude. The sad reality is that all this inconvenience only affects a relatively small number of canal users and to the wider public it is of no consequence at all. But when it means a hard working local business goes to the wall, that is serious. My heart goes out to these companies who really are fighting the tide with absolutely no help from BW. I had this conversation with a group of young hire boaters just before the canal closed, and they said with no prompting from me, how sad it was that the infrastructure did not live up to the standards set by the company they were hiring from. During this whole sorry episode BW have steadfastly refused to bend an inch in the direction of canal users - eg all the mooring permit holders in the Bank Newton pound have had to move as the water drained away yet still have to pay their fees. In my opinion BW are in breach of contract regarding water levels. If a canal does not have water in it, then what is it? And what right do you have to charge people for using it? Like many on the L/L I am incandescent with rage on this issue and we have decided to move off the canal now as I see no reason why this situation should not be repeated year after year. But my living doesn't depend on the canal. I really wish we could do something to support those who have been hit the hardest.

Lymmranger - i did preface my comments with "just my opinion", and my experience has been Amtico products seem to stand the test of time better than Karndean. I think you make a good point regarding cleaning though, and some of the problems folk have with these floors are caused by using far too agressive floor cleaning products eg flash and the like. Most of the time they can be kept clean with plain water or maybe water with a splash of white vinegar, or for heavy duty stuff something like stergene. High alkaline cleaners will, as you know, strip the finish away eventually.

This is an easy one - I'd just like BW to perform in accordance with their published service standards. If you haven't read them it's good for a laugh.

Just my opinion, but laminate flooring has no place on boats, any boats, I've taken up a few floors finished with this awful stuff and, basically, it doesn't like to get wet. It seems nonsensical to me that you should use such a product in an inherently wet environment. Amtico and karndean are good products but as has been said you do have to pay for it. Although basically finished PVC They are not the same, Amtico is better quality and the finish is more hard wearing. Bear in mind that in high traffic areas (eg a narrowboat!) the finish will wear off, the floor will go dull and dirty and eventually will need stripping and refinishing. I've done a few. There are better floor finishes on the market than the ones Amtico/Karndean use which will last longer. What about carpet tiles? loads of choice, easy to fit, and when they get dirty/ damaged can easily be removed for cleaning/replacement. I'd go for a combination of Amtico and carpet tiles, though if I were starting from scratch maybe just do the floor with top quality marine ply, epoxied and varnished.

Are the hire rates still the same... The fact that a hire company still run a 26 year old springer tells you all you need to know about these boats. One interesting point mentioned was how quiet the engine was - not the first time I've heard this about springers. I don't know whether it's the type of engine that was typically installed (and the BMC 1500 is a very underrated lump, in my view) or how it's fitted, or what. Fascinating bit of archive anyway.

Springer Engineering was taken over by Carol and Steve Green in 1991 when the company became Springer (UK) Ltd. The name change suggests insolvency, but the literature at the time simply referred to the original company ceasing trading. They were certainly still in business in late 1993 as I have some original correspondance from that time, but the general concensus is that they finally went bust in 1994, as others have suggested. Springers are the subject of many urban myths, one of which is that they were fashioned out of old gasometers! Sam Springer was from the east End of London and had a background in fabricating water tanks & often joked that all he did was reverse the principle. I think his self deprecation and the fact that Springers were unashamedly budget boats seem to have produced a non deserved reputation for shoddy build quality and poor quality steel. Nothing could be further from the truth. When was the last time you saw a Springer? Probably earlier today maybe - there are simply loads of them about, and bear in mind a lot of these boats will not have had the most thorough maintenance, a testimony to their durability. The design of the typical Springer is interesting. Some say the V hull was simply so that the boats could moor nearer the canal side - that is certainly one advantage, others say it was so that they could use thinner steel, a chined hull being inherently stronger than a flat bottom hull. I reckon another reason was that Springers were designed to be equally happy on rivers - hence the wide side decks, the splash guards and the navigation lights as standard. (why fit nav lights and a splash guard on a budget boat?) We have a 23 foot waterbug ie with the front doors and I love it to bits. Sure, they do roll a bit, but then this is a boat, remember, not a bath tub. I took a friend out on it a few weeks ago and he was astonished a)How much room there is inside b)How quiet it is c)How fast it goes with so little wash, and d) How easy it is to turn round. I don't think I will ever part with our 'bug, even if/when we get a bigger boat. I remember someone remarking that the Springer was the Morris Minor of the Canal, I think it is nearer to a 2CV myself, but the sentiment is right. There is certainly one Springer owner who has famously taken his boat to sea - and famously been rescued by the RNLI... However versatile Springers are, going to sea in any narrowboat is truly reckless and unnecessary. That boat in the clip BTW is definately based on a waterbug hull, but it's heavily modified at the bow and the cabin. I do like it though. A popular mod on the waterbug is a rear deck extension and that, plus changing the windows, is next on my wish list. Oh, if anyone is interested there is a facebook page for Springer owners call Springer Owners United.

From the photos it looks as if the boat was designed to be powered by an outboard so changing it to inboard power is going to be quite involved but it can be done. I saw a small ex workboat last year that couldn't have been more than 20 feet and the owner had done just such a conversion, I think with a single cylinder diesel which didn't take up much room. He told me he had done it for better fuel economy and reckoned it was worth it.

For what it's worth I witnessed a wide beam in all sorts of trouble at the top of the canal last week, he was complaining bitterly about the lack of water but frankly the real problem was his square section hull. In similar vein we moored up near a wide beam at leeds river lock last year which overnight got hung up on the cill at the side - same reason. Call me ignorant but i don't understand why they build wide beams with square hulls when it's asking for trouble. Pluto is right, a V section hull should be no problem on the L/L it's the depth of water at the side of the cut and on the inside of bends that causes the problem. Saw a giant Luxemotor replica up at Riddlesden last year which must have been drawing a good three feet, and that was when the lock "curfew" was in force owing to lack of water. Incidentally we have an old Springer which will moor almost anywhere on the L/L but when other NBs try to moor next to us they often hit the bottom.

I have a background in housing and housing law issues though I have been out of the loop for a few years now. However, I think the legal position on tied accommodation is still the same. If an employer grants a tenancy for the "better performance of his duties" then there is virtuelly no security, except in the case of agricultural workers who have their very own act of parliament. This legal principle is age old and was meant to cover such occupations as village police officers, gamekeepers, gardeners, railwaymen (in the days when stations/crossings were manned), housekeepers, and so on. Now, the position re lockkeepers is an interesting one. I can imagine, for example, BW insisting that the keeper at Bingley 5 rise must occupy the lockkeepers cottage, and that when he leaves, the house must be vacated so that the new keeper can be on hand most of the time. However, I reckon most keepers cottages are occupied by BW personnel who do a range of duties up and down the cut, which they could very well do even if they did not occupy a BW property. In this situation you might say the tenancy has been granted as a consequence of the employment, not as a prerequisite to it, and the legal position is somewhat different. Basically it involves the landlord proving to the courts satisfaction that the property is needed for another employee, and they usually can, but the court will not give possession if the landlord simply wants the property back so he can sell it. i don't know the details of this case but I would think there are a fair few question marks against BW's rights to recover possession.

Hello out there everyone. I've just registered with the forum in the hope of getting some advice on what I suspect is a common thread, buying one's first boat. My wife and I have spent many happy hours on the inland waterways network, either in hire boats or just walking the towpaths. However, we have steadfastly resisted the temptation to buy, simply because a) we have a pretty grounded view of boat ownership and its costs, and we are some distance from the nearest canal (though only 20mins from Englands largest lake...). Anyway, though we do not consider ourselves old, it's fair to say we are on the home stretch so far as retirement goes, and our ambition has long been to spend a few years on the network when we do retire. It's possible that we might have something built nearer that time, or at least buy something approaching our ideal spec., but in the meantime despite our long held reservations we would now like to have our own boat but without incurring huge expense. We have reached a stage in life where we think we will genuinely have the time, money and enthusiasm to devote to it, even if we do have to keep it maybe and hour or so's drive away. So, let's say we can afford to spend up to £20,000, bearing in mind that in maybe 5/6 years we will be looking to upgrade, would anyone like to offer any advice? I have to admit I am drawn to the idea of a GRP boat on a value for money basis, whereas my wife very much wants a "floating country cottage" - I think you know what I mean. Having spoken to lots of boat owners over the years I see how owning a boat quickly turns you into a pessimist, constantly wondering what is going to go wrong next, and therefore I would like to keep things simple eg outboard power, solid fuel heating, though I am pretty handy. (I always take a tool box with me whenever we hire, and I have always used it.) What do people think about wooden boats? We holidayed on a wooden cruiser a few years ago and really liked it, but they must have died out for a reason, or was it just fashion? I can see from loking at other threads that there is a lot of experience out there so any opinions would be welcome, however forthright...