Peppers
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Posts posted by Peppers
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3 minutes ago, WotEver said:
Good idea but he'll still be guessing
I suggest you follow TonyB's advice to go out and buy a wattmeter.
Yes - had meant to say I did also suggest this to him (and if I'm honest took credit for it as my own brilliant idea), but thanks Tony (and Tony).
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Putting the toilet thing to one side (as I've said before I'm still researching this so it isn't definite yet, I just wanted to understand the calculations and learn more about something that sounded interesting. It also isn't £5k, and nor is it electric powered...but anyway...) - I will 100% follow the helpful advice of seeking out a diesel generator. I have been trying to look up reviews (on here and elsewhere) of the Northern Lights M673LD3 and the Paguro 4000 (if only because these are the only ones I've been able to find anything about) but information is still pretty sparse for a beginner. Am I looking at the right sort of thing?
And re. speakers @Tony Brooks, I think you're totally right. My other half seems to think his speakers would come in at about 72ah which seems much closer to what you've said, however he did then mention that he also needs studio monitors (as in not screens) so I gave up and told him he could work out the flipping audit.
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I do find it sad to hear people's responses to my requests for help when I mention something that might not be what you necessarily understand or know. I've never said I want a floating cottage, but I do want to do all the things my work and life requires me to do. I'm new here and I'm learning.
Clearly many of my calculations are wrong. This is tricky for me, but I've been nice on here, apologised a lot and tried hard.
This site can be a brilliant resource for advice but I feel genuinely worried about what replies I'll get on here should I say the "wrong" thing. It's made me terrified of how we'll be received when we're on the water and I'm sure that's not the environment any of you wish to convey about your community.
I hope that when me and my boyfriend finally are on the water we might meet some of you and be able to invite you in for a cuppa and to maybe use our gas powered loo
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I think we can all agree that my audit was very wrong though. As you said @Alan de Enfield, I clearly need help with that, I just didn't know where to go for that.
Just an added note about the toilet, it does use gas, not electrics to heat it. Apparently electrics are only for the fan. Yet again, obviously my numbers are wrong.
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I am somewhat overwhelmed with good advice, yes @nb Innisfree - but I totally trust that @Tony Brooks, @WotEver and others are posting impartial and vital knowledge, so I'm genuinely grateful for it. I have many many many times said I have absolutely no idea what I'm on about in terms of electrics (and so many other things). But I do know what I need to function my working life, so forgive me for ignoring the "its not a flat" comments.
However...some responses in relation to my audit below.
43 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:I am not so sure because that power audit looks very suspect to me. I would like to see the basic data she entered and where she got it from. I suspect there are errors there and maybe Bimble has made it worse. Bimble want to supply solar and batteries where as I am far more concerned about keeping the batteries well charged for the optimum cost.
Happy to admit it's probably all totally wrong. I didn't necessarily know what I was looking for.
Lets pick the power audit apart.
I have already mentioned I suspect the laptop figures are too high but as I do not have the OPs laptops to check they may not be. Even it they are correct it likely to be the maximum power, not the average. A change from a spinning hard disc to a solid state one should reduce the power demand. The maximum power is Ilkley to only be drawn during start up and other processor & disc intensive operations.
We're using 2 macbook pro's, potentially a mac mini + screen or iMac from time to time - all vital for work use. Daily it will be the MacBooks.
Printers. My HP inkjet/multifunction device draws 600 Ma AC. That's 6 amps @ 12v so for half an hours use that's 30 Ah, not 40.
I won't use this everyday, or even every week it was just a way of including the figure, but it's a Samsung laser, and I found on their website the 80amph figure, but yes could well be wrong.
Speakers. What type of speaker that is likely to be used on a boat draws almost half a kW each? I bet that,s the PMP or RMS music figure and not the actual draw. AS there is no mention of a radio or music system I suspect they link to the TV so I doubt they draw more than an few amps.
My partner is a composer so his speakers are heavy duty and connect to the MacBooks/ipad/phone. He would have more if he could! We don't have a TV. Or washing machine, or dishwasher, or hoover, or iron for that matter and haven't for years so probably won't eventually feel the need here either.
Again, I have questioned the two hours of toilet FLUSHING as opposed to just sitting on it. At 320 Watts it may eb a heated composting bog but I rather doubt it, more Ilkley a maccerator so will only draw current when actually flushing..
We're having an incinerator toilet fitted by Andy from Fernwood Boats, but yes this figure could well be wrong.
Fridge. This one is the other way round. Just over 30 Ah looks rather on the low side to me.
Took that figure from someone else's power audit actually, so again could be wrong.
Bread maker. I very much doubt that 615 watts is the average current during a cooking cycle. suspect its the maximum that will only be drawn when cooking. All the time its mixing, kneading and proving it is likely to be far less than this. Anyway although some think its nice to have not exactly vital.
I only use this about once a month when I run a volunteer arts workshop with a group of kids who bake items into the bread. I don't use it for cooking, so it doesn't really matter if it's nice, it's been part of a work thing I've done for a long time. If it is possible (which I believe it is from seeing what others have on their boats) then I'd be glad to have.
Camera charger. Is one hour to fully recharge it realistic?
I'm a photographer, and yes generally its a 1 hour charge every few days per battery.
I am still wondering why the OP wants to light his boat up like a Christmas tree or Blackpool illuminations. How many of us have 20 lamps on all the time?
I just found this a difficult one to quantify so went high - thinking winter day - me working in one room, other half working in another. 20 is high, but better that than low was my assumption.
I know its better to overestimate then under but I am sceptical about the Bimble calculations.
and
4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:A 'proper' marine generator will be quiet and 'solve all of your electrical (potential) problems', you can even have it connected up so it automatically senses when the batteries need charging, switches on, charges the batteries and then switches off - "newbie-proof".
Downside is cost - installed it will come out at between £7000 and £10000.
Ouch! I don't think I have that much for a generator
- what do I do?! Will it be a totally impossible feat to just charge batteries via the engine (and solar in the summer)..?
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@Tony Brooks - I completely want the option that is best for the learners and the uninformed, so having both an ammeter and a smartguage sounds like the best option for me. I'm going to purchase those two things now so they are off my shopping list!
As for batteries, I'm worried that being a newbie I won't top them up right. Is there any such thing as cheap sealed batteries? You are totally right, we will probably ruin them fairly quickly as we "learn"
Also, do you only get an inverter/charger if you're getting a generator. As I say I'm looking into the gennies now, but I'm just asking so I understand.
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Any opportunity to flex my muscles @croftie
And am I right in assuming that battery charger/inverter would be better for me? I hadn't even thought about what a battery charger was in this scenario before now...
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2 hours ago, croftie said:
So you need a minimum of 930 amp hours. ie 2 x 465. I would think a 2.5x - 3x better a better bet.
Ah! Yes! Penny starting to really thud the ground now!
I might think then more like 4 or 5 of these: http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/leoch-250ah-agm-leisure-battery/
1 hour ago, Bricksh said:Our 3000W inverter is also our battery charger so as a byproduct our batteries are usually well in excess of 80% SOC by the time we stop the genny.
And I didn't realise an inverter could also be a battery charger?! I thought inverters used up battery energy...which inverter is that? Or is that just when using the genny?
I'm looking into travelpowers at the moment...
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7 minutes ago, OldGoat said:
1. Not enough batteries - re-read what Tony Brooks wrote
2. Surely you don't need a smartgauge AND a BMV? Both are monitors It's an either / or situation. I'd still stick with a Battery Management device for those days when the solar controller doesn't work.
Apologies - I'd understand @Tony Brooks to be saying I needed to cover 465amp hours and thought that would be covered by 640amp worth of batteries. Sorry, I really am tediously slow with this stuff.
And I've also misunderstood something about the ammeter, thinking the BMV was an ammeter. Would someone mind sending me an example of an ammeter that might complement the smartgauge. Again, apologies :/
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Wow, you've made this so much clearer for me, thank you so so much. I've just spoken to the other half about diesel generators and we think we will definitely go down this route. If it looks to be too much for our budget for now, it will become our Christmas present to ourselves later in the year! I'll start looking into these this afternoon, but for now, as for the rest of my "shopping list", how does this sound based on the wonderful advice you've all given so far.
4 x 160amp batteries: http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/leoch-160ah-agm-leisure-battery/
Victron 3000w inverter: https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/store/product/vv-015.aspx
Smartgauge: http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/smartgauge.html
Battery monitor: http://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/victron-bmv-700-multi-function-battery-monitor-1-batterybank.html
One of these as it comes with the MPPT controller: http://www.bimblesolar.com/offgrid/12v/260W-kit-mppt-mounting?sort=p.price&order=ASC&limit=75 - then I'm going to speak to bimble about 5 other solar panels that I could get, and how many controllers I would then need.
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Thanks so much @Tony Brooks - is this the victron battery monitor type you refer to? https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/store/product/vv-024.aspx - would we need one of those for each battery? Full bimble calculator is below, I probably have made mistakes on there.
9 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:A 3000 Watt inverter means that you will have no need to limit the power of mains electric equipment you will gradually bring onto the boat and use. As long a such equipment is only used while the engine is running at speed and generating enough electricity to supply the loads then there is nothing wrong but as I explained at full output it will be drawing about 300 amps from the battery unless the alternator is covering it and that will go to a potentially damaging degree of discharge in about 20 minutes with fully charged batteries and far faster with old or partially discharged ones. You may well have it all sorted but experience here say the likelihood is that you do not. I suspect the large alternator probably has a 175 amp output if you are lucky. That would cover an AC load 1750 Watts, not 3000 Watts.
I think he did say 175 amp output yes - does that mean a 3000 watt inverter is essentially pointless then, would we be better with a smaller one?
Also - we're on a 60ft by 12ft so should have the roof space for plenty of solar - to be honest I was thinking 6 panels rather than bumble's suggested 7. I was still thinking the 4 Leoch batteries too rather than the ones bimble suggested.
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Also the electrician doing our install says we have a large twin alternator on the engine. I just spoke to him and he said we've not got anything on the boat which warrants loads of solar. I think he's thinking this as we won't have a washing machine or dishwasher or hoover, but we do have technical equipment we need to use and so I'm concerned we will be underprepared.
I just did a "build your own" through bimble, which came up with the picture below. Any thoughts on this?
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Thank you for your extremely useful responses so far.
We will be CCing and not hooked up to shoreline power.
With regards to a power audit @Tony Brooks I did a bimble calculator thing (screenshot attached). Apologies for not including to begin with. I
And thank you so much for mentioning the ammeter @Tony Brooks and @WotEver - I had not realised a smartgauge was not that. Any particular type of ammeter or is something like this ok? https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/store/product/ei-003.aspx
I have, of course, over-egged everything on the calculator, so perhaps 6 of the solar panels suggested above (http://www.bimblesolar.com/offgrid/12v/260W-kit-mppt-mounting?sort=p.price&order=ASC&limit=75) would work - presumably giving me 1560W of solar if it happens to be a glorious summer day :/
3 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:experience tells me it may all end in tears. Especially when I see a 3000 Watt inverter
Can I ask why this inverter might be incorrect? I'm still struggling to get my head around what the 3000w bit means in relation to the inverter. My logic/sense tends to be a bit "surely the bigger number the better" which I'm sure is quite wrong, but hey ho I'm trying to learn.
Thanks again all for your invaluable knowledge so far.
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Sorry, I know I've sort of mentioned something about this before, and I'm being very on and off on the site at the minute, but between building a boat, being self-employed and writing a PhD, I'm finding little time to think straight!!
We're about to order all our electrical set up and just want to make sure we're doing the right thing before we go ahead. Please do offer suggestions - this part has been the source of a great deal of stress for us and is a little bit of a sore topic, so any help is very much required!
We'll be liveaboard - running the usual 12v lights, charging phones, laptops, oven ignition, 12v fridge, pumps, a couple of kitchen worktop appliances every now and then - nothing too out of the ordinary but I would like to "future-proof" and not skimp now in order to find ourselves falling short very soon.
In our shopping baskets at the minute are:
- 4 x 12v Leoch batteries http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/leoch-160ah-agm-leisure-battery/
- Smartgauge monitor
- Victron phoenix inverter https://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/store/product/vv-015.aspx
- Victron 140W polychristalline solar panels http://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/victron-bluesolar-140w-polycrystalline-solar-panel-kit-with-20a-charge-controller-twin-output.html (this has been suggested by the electrician installing, see note below)
Vitally, I don't know how many solar panels to order. Ideally, they'd sustain the boat power wherever possible during summer. Strangely my OH seems to think the electrician who will be installing said we only need one panel (something to do with us having a big engine), which I'm certain I'm not understanding right. He said we should get this pack as it has a charge controller in it - would we need more than one charge controller though, depending on the amount of solar panels?
So...what do I have wrong, incorrect, missing etc. etc...?
Thanks so much all.
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7 minutes ago, OldGoat said:
I understand (but don't condone 'prissiness' with one's output - must be an upbringing in in the Scouts). However you have to be practical. I t's not only the costs but you have to factor in space for a frequently hot object - not easy even in a broad beam. Additionally it needs more frequent attention to it supplies (if gas powered).
It's designed for large vessels - not inland leisure craft.
I agree (must be an upbringing on a farm). For me its the chemicals I like less than the effluent itself! However his lordship won't have a composter either and this seemed like a catch-all solution, which is why I'm pushing it.
Also, we tested one in an eco-toilet shop in the uk and they aren't too hot. Like a warm radiator to touch on the outside base of the toilet for a few minutes.
I'm on the hunt for solar panels and inverters today too. Choices choices choices!!
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2 hours ago, frangar said:
Ummm....does its have a flue?....or comply with any other aspect of the BSS???
I have to say I do admire those that try and reinvent the wheel!! Pointless!...and given that energy consumption it's far from the green option.
I was under the impression it did have a flue from speaking to the Cinderella salesman/the guy at lee sanitation, and I think that's what they're calling a ventilation fan.
3 hours ago, WotEver said:Seating height 490 mm Height 510 mm Width 390 mm Depth 590 mm Weight 20 kg Capacity up to 6 pers Standby electric power requirement 0,005 Amp Electric power requirement for incineration 1,3 Amp Gas consumption around 110 grams per incineration Incineration power 3000W Power requirement 12V DC 11-14,4 V Ventilation fan 12V DC Gas Propane (30 mBar pressure) Thanks for this - does this sound heavy on electrics then or just heavy on gas? (again apologies I know the numbers are right there in front of me, but it might as well stay in dutch for as much sense as it makes to my tiny head)
We've worked out we would probably use the toilet approximately 5-7 times a day so based on this...
3 hours ago, BruceinSanity said:In another thread about incinerators, I observed that two people will probably use the loo ten times per day between them. That implies burning a kilo of propane a day and getting less than a fortnight out of a 13 kg cylinder at around £26. If you are working, those figures will reduce a bit, but it's still far and away the most expensive option.
Even with pump out, we are paying about £16 every three weeks at most. Cassette and composting don't cost anything for disposal, of course.
...we would be paying approximately only just a bit more than a pump out just for gas surely? Maybe £10-£15 a month more. I'm not saying for definite, but to me it might be worth this to not have to have a pump out/more water/waste tank etc. - I know the other similar and cheaper option is cassette, but the OH just will not have this at all.
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18 hours ago, nbfiresprite said:
You soon kill your batteres, if you use the AC electric version. I have used these loo's in Norway, this is one loo you don't want to drop your wallet in. For caravan or boat use, there is 12 volt version which uses LPG for the burner
Cinderella Motion (Caravan and boat)
Stand-by power requirements 0.5 Amp
Incineration Electrical Power Requirement 1.3 Amp
Gas consumption about 110 gr. Per combustion
Fan 12V DC
Gas propane (30 mbar)
Power supply 12V DC / 4 Amp (11-14.4V)Yes - so this is the version I should have directed to. 12v for the fan and propane gas. This is the link I should have directed to: http://www.cinderella-toilet.nl/cinderella-motion/
18 hours ago, Jess-- said:the site gives little info about the details of them, it gives us consumption per burn but doesn't tell us how often it burns
One burn = one flush.
11 hours ago, mrsmelly said:I wont mention the incinerator toilet just ask yourself why no one else has one?
From what I understand people haven't taken them up yet as they're still expensive. I spoke to the chap at lee sanitation (forgotten his name) and he said they were a great option, he just wasn't stocking them at the minute as they are still too pricey in comparison to pump outs/cassettes at the minute.
Ohhhh I would so like to find a way to make the incinerator toilet work! It seems like such a perfect solution!
11 hours ago, mrsmelly said:All the other stuff can be done two major ways one is a stand alone quiet diesel genie installation and one is what I have a Travel power run off the propulsion engine that does everything including ironing and washing machine whilst also charging batteries and moving boat at same time if you wish. Another way would be big alternators and a big inverter this also can work but whilst you are taking big loads for your iron and washing wachine heaters for instance there is nowt much left to charge your batteries.
The most expensive being the stand alone gennie which also means running two diesel engines but it also gives more power of the three ways.
Do you want to live on a boat or do you realy wish you were in a bungalow? that will give you some idea of which way to go. I still have friends living onboard loving it having a great life with absolutely no mains power whatsoever. It wouldn't suit me but you see what I mean. You may well get some well meaning hobby boaters giving their advice on the subject bless em but remember they toddle off home to their national grid existence when it gets rainy or cold so take it with a pinch of salt.
And we will be on a boat obviously, but unfortunately modern life and work requires us to have more electrical stuff than we might wish (environmentally more than anything). We're not energy wasters by any means but we do need power.
I'd been considering the big alternator big inverter option so we don't have to go and turn a gennie on - and if it's only the washing machine/iron that sounds a stretch then is it possible to only use those when the engine is on? Does that help or is that stupid?
Apologies as always for my electrical stupidity. This REALLY is not my specialist subject.
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We're at that stage of our widebeam fit out where we need to get all our electrical ducks in order. I'm a technological nightmare so I'm really trying to understand everything but might be a little slow...
We're continuous cruising and so won't be hooked up to shoreline power. I definitely want solar so recommendations there are really welcome. We'll be working and living aboard and would like to make our set up as beefy as we can to cover as many ills as possible. As I've said elsewhere for us that means:
12v fridge, pumps, horn, head lamps, led's throughout, speakers, phone charging, laptop charging, tool charging, hoover charging, anything else that fancies charging, printer, toasty grill thing, the occasional iron (highly rare). We're going to have a washing machine and only use it when we cruise (mother in law in kindly excited about the idea of doing our laundry and that is too good to pass up). I've been trying to find out what this equates to usage wise but can't find a calculator.
The main thing that makes us tricky is I'm really rather keen on the idea of an incinerator toilet. I know they are more expensive, but if it saves having to have another cassette vs. pump out debate it might just be worth the money...and the benefit of it solving the waste disposal issue of course. They are just so electric hungry! I fancy this one, although their english version website is down at the moment so apologies for the dutch - http://www.cinderella-toilet.nl/comfort/
I suppose in many ways what I'm asking is does anyone else have an incinerator toilet or even heard of someone attempting to use one on continuous cruise?
And if you could set up a robust and excellent electrical set up from scratch what would you turn to?? I want to think big and work down from there...
Thanks in advance
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The boat is now on hardstanding - and my partner has been doing well fitting locks on the boat which has take SUCH a surprisingly long time. We're now just about to sort some final bits before doing the first fix electrics (which we're having an electrician come and do). I'm trying to write a shopping list now for this and realising how little I know all over again! I have so many questions to ask that I'm currently scouring the thread for answers...oh dear - such a long way to go!
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2 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:
You could use a threaded insert nut. This screws into the ply and you can then turn the coach bolt by hand with a bit of thread lock, or if you want it tight then you could use a stainless socket screw. As they are about 13mm deep, you can drill a blind hole from above into the ply and then screw these in. Invisible from inside the boat.
http://www.screwfix.com/p/insert-nuts-type-d-m6-x-13mm-50-pack/59937
Ah, ok...invisible from the inside - I like that a lot! so this threading insert nut + coach bolt with thread lock on it?
I'll pass this on to the other half so he can enjoy another trip to screwfix in the morning
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Just now, rusty69 said:
Ah ok, wasn't sure, ours has no clearance for any ply when opening due to a welded surround on the roof.
It's the black on black on black photo as well...not the easiest! I'm not sure of the black paint (grrr) but hey ho.
11 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:I also put 4 coach bolts through the hatch - one in each corner. Being slightly domed and without any slots or sockets they look (I think) just fine.
I'm trying to work out the coach bolt scenario also - because does the bolt come through your ply, and so essentially down into your ceiling? I'm trying to think of a solution like a coach bolt but that would go into the ply, maybe from the front and back of the hatch - almost like a nail, but through wood and steel...I don't really want to see it from the inside, but I don't want anyone being able to fiddle with it from the outside either...
It's like a riddle.
9 minutes ago, Chewbacka said:Looking at you photos, the spray foam looks a bit high/thick in a few places, if you need to trim it flush the best tool to use is a cheap bread knife with a broad but thin blade.
You're right...these are the bits we lost our patience with and will come back to
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We do have the clearance - we can fit an 18mm sheet in there with some space left, it's probably about 20mm in total
I'm just on the phone to the other half who is worrying about it just being glue because it's quite a big block of wood, so coach bolts could be a half decent solution to supplement the adhesive / keep him quiet...
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Some more pictures that have just been sent to me in case it helps...
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Our doors are going quite well, thanks for all the advice so far. Our doors do open outwards @BWM and it is a right pain! Enfield garage door locks are a good idea though, thanks for that.
We've just hit a bit of a hurdle in that we can't quite work out the roof hatch...How do we attach the ply to this? Surely glue won't be enough, but where would screws go?
My other half has been walking round trying to look at how others in the marina have done their hatches, but everyones is so different we just can't get a decent enough understanding of it. He has sent me a picture of our hatch, as it has a sort of lip on it that seems to rest on top of the doors when they're all closed, so it can always just slide back and forth, rather than the lift up sort (sorry for my lack of appropriate terminology!!!)
Anyone got any roof hatch inspiration?
- what do I do?! Will it be a totally impossible feat to just charge batteries via the engine (and solar in the summer)..?
Electric set up advice
in New to Boating?
Posted
I'm just waiting on my watt meter to arrive and then I will hopefully be able to calculate a much more accurate audit. Again, I can only apologise for my inaccuracies so far. And I'm honestly not intentionally being uncooperative. I'm sorry that you've taken the questions I've asked in that way.
And on this point, they are neither paid for courses, nor will they be held aboard. Basically I volunteer run a workshop for vulnerable single mothers and their children in collaboration with an art gallery in south london, and one of the workshops we run involves baking little items into bread for them to find in their loaves. This means the kids making things during one workshop and then me going home (alone) and sticking them into the bread maker surrounded by flour. Most of them don't even eat them or manage to get them home to mum and dad but just tear them open at the next workshop and play with them. I choose to do it with a bread maker because it would be more time consuming to make the bread by hand than just stick it in the machine, and as I say I do this as a volunteer. As I'd mentioned before I am willing to just not run this workshop anymore, or not cook it from the boat etc. etc. if the electricity would be too much for it, but as others have mentioned they are able to run these sorts of items then I have just been trying to understand the best solution to enable me to run them too. It would not, as I understand it, require any further insurance or licensing.
Thank you so much to everyone who has shared information about generators - I will sit and have a good read through that victron test and look at the Fischer Panda's, so thank you to those who shared that