Captain Pegg

A search on "Monkey Boat" reveals just one usage between 1841 and 1911 and that is in 1881 for Alice Dimmock, wife of John Dimmock, of 21 Tomlin's Terrace, Limehouse, London whose location of birth is listed as "In a Monkey Boat". Unsurprisingly "Horse Boat" turns up no results. JP

That's essentially what I did - albeit directly online via an alternative source - after an initial trawl through records I hold. Not foolproof but I did interrogate beyond a simple search. Despite the lack of results it may very well have turned up the first recorded usage of the words "Narrow Boat" to describe a canal boat of the English inland waterways and of the term "Narrowboat". JP

Hi Kay_C, Thought I'd respond as Lorna hasn't been on since you posted. She isn't a regular contributor to the forum so it may take a while for her to respond. I have a Lucy Kay 1865-1891 in my records who married into an Atkins boating family at Tunstall. I also note she appears on board boats as a young girl in census information. She is not directly related to me but I keep wider records of people who are connected to my boating ancestors by birth and marriage. I will do some investigation and see if I can link her to anyone you mention above which would likely confirm the Kay family boating heritage. I also have information for three people with the surname of Hodson who married into families connected to my own. Two of these appear to be on the Cheshire/Staffordshire canals, the other in Coventry. I suspect at least the former two are related. Keep an eye out for further info from Lorna and if she doesn't appear you'll have to settle for what I can find. JP

To add to the above there are also three other uses of the term "Narrow Boat" in the 1881 census. These are to describe a boat at Runcorn, Cheshire and two boats at Newbold and Dunston, Chesterfield, Derbyshire. There is seemingly no use of the term in any of the 1841, 1851, 1871, 1891 or 1901 censuses. In 1911 there are four entries of which three are the use of the term "Narrow Boat Builder" as the occupation in entries for Marple, Cheshire. The other is the listing of "Waterman Narrowboat" as the occupation for a person in hospital in Runcorn, Cheshire. So, apparently very little use in historic census information - unless someone that actually has access to the records can conduct a better search than I have managed - and notably all in parts of Cheshire and Derbyshire where narrow craft would not necessarily be in the majority in the surrounding area. JP

Yes, I have searched and found one. There is an entry for Peter Littlemore (transcribed incorrectly as Littlemoor) in the 1881 census for Stretford, Lancashire which has an address listed as Near Watch House on Canal. "Loretta". Narrow Boat. ETA - In addition to the above a general search of census information shows the description "Narrow Boat" used in place of a specific name for the vessel in the 1861 census for Ripley, Derbyshire. These entries are on sheets specifically used for vessels. Searches for either "Narrow Boat" or "Narrowboat" pick up nothing else prior to 1881.

Yes Alan. Hence I said that I couldn't recall seeing it not that you hadn't. I have viewed over 10,000 records for over 2,000 boat people. The use of "narrow boat" wasn't common in census records or other family records.

I can't recall having seen either "narrow boat" or "narrowboat" being used in any historical records. That's not to say it never was and I will keep an eye out for it. Even in the 1939 England & Wales Register the terminology is still generally "Canal Boatman". A lot of census records also seem to have "Barge" written in subsequently against a lot of descriptions that simply give the occupation as "Boatman" or similar as though there was a requirement to confirm the type of vessel. JP

Surely that depends upon the boat? It may be true in general for ocean going ships but does it hold for narrowboats? I think Mad Harold was correct in his assertion that a boat will rotate about the centre of gravity in terms of yaw (rotation in the horizontal plane) and that won't change with forward and back motion (surge). The term pivot point seems to be have a different definition in the attached paper to that you use above. Anyway aren't we both saying that it's all a bit academic because the boat doesn't prescribe a circle around either of them when turning? JP

The steering mechanism of a boat uses similar principles as an aeroplane which are very different from a road vehicle. It relies on a destabilisation of forces acting on the body by means of inducing roll and yaw. The rudder induces yaw around the centre of gravity and also roll in the opposite direction to which the rudder turns. These in combination result in hydrodynamic forces acting on the hull that turn the boat. The boat pivots around the centre of gravity - generally aft of the midpoint - but it doesn't turn around a specific point. There has to be an element of forward momentum to produce a turning force on the bows resultant to the yaw. Whilst a car is generally going in the direction it is pointing and turns in direct proportion to the steering input a boat or aeroplane does not. They often don't go where they are pointing even when going in a straight line, particularly aeroplanes. JP

That doesn't sound right to me, putting aside that I have no experience of naval architecture. Buoyancy is a force acting vertically upwards and gravity is a force acting vertically downward. Furthermore, the buoyant force is a reaction to gravity acting on the mass of the boat so the centre of buoyancy surely moves with the centre of gravity in plan view? If it didn't you would produce a couple and have some sort of aquatic fairground ride. The pitching and rolling of a boat is the process of them finding that balance as conditions change and momentarily throw them out of alignment. Centre of buoyancy is a product of the shape of the submerged area of the hull; centre of gravity is a product of the distribution of mass of the whole boat. Therefore they are not necessarily at the same height and that's a key issue in stability of vessels as you don't want the centre of gravity above the centre of buoyancy otherwise once a boat starts to roll it might not come back. i did notice Nick didn't answer the question directly but appears to have voted for 'none of the above'. I think it's far more important to recognise where the steering force is applied rather than the precise position of the centre of rotation. JP

Check the details but I think you may find that the stoppage at Fradley commences on 3rd January whereas there is a stoppage in central Birmingham from 2nd January. So you should be OK to go via Trent & Mersey, Coventry and North Oxford. JP

I see the love of Notts County doesn't run in the family. Are you wheeling on down to Frome Town vs Merthyr on Boxing Day? JP

I think it's the mark of 1970s cast bronze copies of Cooke/Neal type windlasses looking back at old threads on this subject. Harry Neal windlasses are marked "H NEAL". I think Laurence said his were a copy rather than branded as such. I doubt he would have done that. If he had done so I'll wager he would have spelled it correctly though. JP

I note the OP has two threads going on regarding this holiday. On the other thread the conjecture is that he hasn't booked two weeks on the Kennet & Avon but is instead planning to cruise the Warwickshire Avon rather than the Bristol Avon. Wouldn't be first to confuse the two. JP

I'm a bit puzzled. Stoke Prior is on the Worcester & Birmingham canal so what's the connection with two weeks on the Kennet & Avon? Assuming it's Black Prince boats at Stoke Prior the Avon Ring would be good choice for a two week cruise with plenty of time to explore further afield on foot or boat. It certainly gives time to add Birmingham into the mix. Note that this is not the same River Avon as in the Kennet & Avon, this could explain the confusion. There aren't horrors on the Avon providing the water levels are OK but it does rise and fall quickly and the locks have fierce flows - particularly in the uphill direction. The hire base will keep you advised of conditions and if either the Severn or Avon are not suitable you wouldn't be allowed on as a hire boater. Check with the boatyard regarding the licence, this is a very common route for their boats so may be included and if not may be pre-arrangeable. Also note that Stoke Prior hire base is immediately below a flight of 35 locks and if you do the Avon Ring you will have to do them in one direction. If you went up to King's Norton to join the Warwickshire Ring you'd have to do them in both directions. Not sure that fits your brief. The other common route from Stoke Prior is the Stourport Ring but it is a comfortable one week cruise. The Avon Ring is longer and generally a 10 day minimum. JP

I suspect it's built to the same width as the original. It's still presumably sits on the same width of embankment for starters. The lack of vegetation and clean lines of the banks possibly make it look wider than established canals. It's also common for piling to have been installed inside the line of the original bank, sometimes even on the towpath side, which makes some canals narrower than they originally were. The channel will originally have been deep and wide enough to pass a pair of loaded horse boats with an approximate maximum draft of 4' with sufficient space for the effects of the arising water displacement. Width is determined in part by the required depth. Overall a balance has to be struck between the costs of construction and aiding the expedient passage of cargoes. There are also considerations regarding holding sufficient water for lock operations as this is a pound between two relatively close locks. JP