Tony1

That's jolly decent of you. I don't want to give the impression that I'm anti-trombonal. If anything I'm atrombonal. But if I did have one and I was on a remote mooring, and another boat came cruising into view, I would pick the thing up and start blowing into it as hard as I could, and I wouldn't stop blowing until they had passed out of sight.

I can only imagine that people who moor ten feet away on a long empty stretch are labouring under the grave misapprehension that I am a normal sociable person who is willing to chat to them. Or perhaps they seeking a feeling of safety in numbers? I do feel like pointing out that their personal safety is actually decreased by close proximity to me, but what I actually do is force my reluctant lips into a grim smile, and nod curtly. I've heard of some social events where people wear wristbands with certain colours to denote whether they are single, taken, looking, not looking, or whatever. Perhaps boaters could fly little flags with the same purpose? A skull and crossbones flag could be the social equivalent of "f**k off". Until we have such a sensible system to ward off friendly boaters, there is a proven method: buy a small, very tatty, and very old GRP cruiser, enhance it with a badly-constructed (and unpainted) wooden cabin, and install a large antisocial Rottweiler therein. Oh- and if possible, blow loudly into a trombone.

This is my point really- they are making a very very overt statement that they don't want any other boats mooring there. And in order to moor there, you would have to pull over, and hold the boat in with a rope (or on one of the rings) whilst you go knocking on their boat and ask if they would mind moving up a couple of rings so that you can moor. What these people are counting on is that almost everyone will look at the situation and think: 'They dont want me here, and they're making it a hassle for me to stay here. I wont bother asking.' If you asked nicely, the truth is most of them would probably move out of the way. But we all know there is also a chance they will be awkward, sullen or in rare cases aggressive about it- and at the end of the day there is literally nothing you can do to force them to move over- or at least nothing that is legal. I think if it was for a day or two, I wouldn't care. But its just unfair that these selfish buggers are making an attempt to hog the most beautiful spot around for two weeks at the very least (and this was December, so chances are they will have stayed longer if not chased by CRT). In fact, next time I pass that spot and one person is moored in the middle, I'm going to stop and ask them to move over, for the hell of it.

Last winter I passed a large flash on the left, just north of bridge 180 on the T+M. I was pondering stopping for the afternoon anyway, and on the map this looked a likely spot. As I passed it looked as if there were two spaces with mooring rings, and then a wide concrete bank that would have made it slightly difficult to moor. But a single boat was moored right in the centre. On one hand you could say 'ok, this person clearly wants some privacy'. And tbh I generally prefer to moor at least 50 yards away from other boats if I can. But on the other hand, you think: here's this lovely spot, fairly isolated and very quiet, with a genuinely beautiful view over the flash, and two people could enjoy it easily, but this person has chosen to make a statement that they dont want anyone else to join them. And as its winter, they could have been there for a fortnight or more. So for me, even though I enjoy being alone in beauty spots, I would never deny someone else the chance to stop there by mooring right in the middle. I like privacy, and I respect others' privacy, but for me that behaviour is just selfish.

So in the unlikely event that they tried to apply a potential new tax to boaters staying overnight in Wales, how would it work? For example, the Llangollen briefly enters Wales for a mile or two around Bettisfield, and then not again until Chirk aqueduct. So if I was to overnight near Bettisfield, how would anyone from officialdom know (unless maybe CRTs spotters tell them)? Will there be someone stationed at Chirk taking boat numbers and dates when the boats move in and out of Wales, and then the authorities will send on a bill? Would they add a levy onto the existing mooring charges around Llangollen, or send traffic warden types around every morning to check on who was there? Its difficult to see how it could be operated in a way that would be cost effective.

I sometimes feel like its a bit tricky deciding when to moor right up to the next boat to maximise the free space left. In busy places I always do that, and so does almost everyone else, but in quieter places that general rule seems to be stretched a bit. For example, I needed to stop outside Tattenhall overnight, and all the boats were moored one ring apart- by which I mean they had not moored onto the same ring to get close in, but were mostly moored on to the next one along. So there was a space of at least 20ft in between boats. These people clearly like their privacy, I thought. 'When in Rome', etc- so I did the same. I got into a space between two boats and moored the same way. If I had moored right up close, a 45 footer might have possibly squeezed in, and tbh I felt a bit guilty about not making another space- but that said, it was after 6pm, and I was leaving at 9am the next day, otherwise I probably wouldn't have moored that way. In really busy places like Nantwich it feels like committing heresy and murder combined when you leave a ten foot gap between boats. Not that you would ever do that of course. I would expect to be stoned to death by a crowd of justifiably irate boaters for such a crime.

That would clash with my feng shui. I thought you people were supposed to know what you're on about.

Well I'm glad we sorted that one out without too much blood being spilled. I'd like to move on to a less controversial question. I'm considering buying a narrowboat to live aboard in central London- right in the centre, mind- where it will be moved as little as possible, and preferably moored on water points as often as possible. All my millennial youtuber friends are advising me to paint the interior white. But I can't decide on the best shade of white. Any advice welcome.

If you're stuck, Anderton marina is worth a look- they have a few visitor moorings, and the poor disturbed guy who was making all the racket last winter must have been moved on long ago. No marina would allow someone like that to stay very long, there would be too many complaints from others. In fact I mentioned him to someone I spoke to on the Shroppie, and he said he was sure he'd moored near this same guy somewhere else on the T+M, and of course regretted it. There would have been no possible reasoning with this chap- he was howling and whooping along with his music, and later on he was just shouting and swearing presumably at the world in general. My impression was that any attempt to reason with him could well end up in a physical confrontation. Part of me was trying to sympathises with whatever events in his life had led him into this state- getting so drunk that he whoops and swears at nobody (at the top of his voice) on a very quiet stretch of canal. But at some point your annoyance takes over, and you just end up being very resentful- he has probably made many an evening miserable for hundreds of boaters, and will no doubt carry on doing so until he runs into someone who is prepared to get physical with him.

Apologies Andrew, I didnt really intend to cast aspersions on the folks there. As I said, I met a couple of them and they were really nice people. I made that rather ill-judged comment with those people in mind who prefer the boats around them to be shiny, and the boaters to be more well-heeled, but in retrospect I had no business saying it at all.

Thanks for your input on this issue guys, I wish I'd asked these questions more clearly at the time, and had it looked at in a workshop rather than being under time pressure, but there you are. Can I get your thoughts on something? Would a blown diode stop an alternator working completely, or would the blown diode still allow the alternator to put out 20 amps as I mentioned above? I did get the 'sleeping' alternator to do some charging when I increased the current draw, but it never did enough of the work to make a really useful contribution.

I don't want to name the electrician involved, because if there is any problem understanding this issue of one alternator not working, it will be down to my poor memory of the details he gave, plus my very poor understanding of what he was even saying, and I dont want my ignorance to give any kind of bad reflection on him. He works on a daily basis with alternators of all sorts, and has done for years, so I don't doubt his knowledge at all. He would be able to explain it properly so it would make sense to you, but sadly I can't. I can remember that when we observed that one alternator was not working, he tested the regulated voltages on both of them, and one was I think about 0.5v lower than the other (I think the higher alternator might have been 13.9v). He felt this difference was the root cause for why one of them wasn't running and the other was, but the details of his explanation were beyond my understanding. I do recall doing some testing with a bigger current draw, and in that situation the non-working alternator did finally kick into action and started to produce maybe 20 amps, but the other one was by then putting out maybe 60-70 amps, which was way too much for it to stay cool, so that was a short test. I did ask him about whether the regulated voltage on the two alternators could be adjusted so that they were the same, but he was a bit pessimistic about it, and about whether it would 100% resolve the issue - I cant remember why. After that, I gave it all some thought and came up with the idea of getting a second B2B and second lead acid battery, and setting up a separate charging 'route' for each alternator. The costs ended up being not far short of a brand new powerful alternator plus an alpha pro regulator and fitting- but by then I was unfortunately committed down the B2B route.

I wish I'd gone down the route of an alternator controller instead of using B2Bs, but the snag in the OPs case is the same snag I had- which is that a powerful alternator is a prerequisite, otherwise he has to buy an alpha pro for each of his two 80 amp alternators (and pay for fitting). I'm assuming one alpha pro cant control two alternators, right? And if he opts for a solution that only uses one of his alternators, he'll have to settle for a charging current of 40-50amps at most, which needs him to do 2 or 3 hours charging on winter days when there's little solar available. But it would be good to hear back from the OP as to what their thoughts are at the moment about the possible options. There are too many threads where the OP asks a question, gets a range of replies (usually with a free argument thrown in), and is never heard from again. I hope this wont be one of those.

Thanks for the clarification Tony- so yes, I had completely the wrong idea about common charging systems. My boat had an A2B, so I just assumed its been the standard setup for a couple of decades. (On a side note, I sold my old A2B for about £150 if I recall, so there might be a cheaper option via ebay or similar). .

I'm just wondering if anyone knows whether the dear old Llangollen is still busy? If it is, I might postpone my visit until the closures in early Jan, and deliberately trap myself there for a month. I bet its lovely when its really quiet in winter.

My thinking on this is that most boats will have an A2B (alternator to battery) chargers, because thats the standard thing to use to charge lead acids. So for most people, there wont be a £450 purchase for an A2B, it will already be in place, and the only expense apart from the lithiums will be a BMV712 or similar, plus some cable. If I'm understanding it right, the A2B being in place means that you can select one of its charge profiles, to make sure it goes into float at a safe voltage for the lithiums.

I don't have this long wire setup so I'm not 100% clear on the detail, but I had assumed that most people using this method would be using their existing A2B charger, and would select a charge profile that would ensure the A2B went into float at 14v or less. So that way they wouldn't have to manually intervene on every charge - which I assume they would do by by switching off the engine, or by disconnecting the charge to the lithiums. With an A2B in place, the charging profile of the A2B could be set up to go into float at whatever voltage is reached when the lithium is roughly 80% full- have I got that right?

This is more general advice, but worth bearing in mind. I moored opposite ABC boat hire at Anderton Marina (which is itself opposite Uplands marina) for a total of about 4 weeks last Nov and Dec, and both times I was there, there was a guy moored somewhere in the marina (I think they have some visitor/guest moorings as well as for the hire boats), and a couple fo times each week, he would start shouting and howling at the top of his voice, and carry on intermittently for a few hours, culminating with a load of shouted swear words and abuse to the world in general. I feel sure there was alchohol abuse and/or a mental health issue at play, so I don't want to be too flippant/derogatory, but it significantly spoiled the experience of staying there, and for paying visitors it must have seemed an outrage. I could not for the life of me understand why none of the people living on boats on that little marina (there seemed to a be a few with lights on late into the evening) had complained and got this behaviour stopped, but there it is. Anyway, my point is the common sense one of not committing to a long term mooring until you've tried out a week or two there, and you've established who your neighbours are, and that there are no local nutters who are going to spoil the quiet evenings. I spoke to a few people from Uplands whilst I was in the vicinity, and to me personally they all seemed like really nice folks (and they were complimentary about the marina too), but for some people, a couple of them might be considered on the more 'rough and ready' end of the market.

Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear. A wide beam, you say? And with a single alternator? Is this really the sort of person you ought to be associating with? Anyway, I heard widebeams are being cancelled.

My problem with this kind of setup is that, as an effete and decadent member of the capitalist class, I use a fair amount of electricity. I even have a fridge, with things in it. So I want a setup that can charge at a decent rate. Typically, my oppression of the working classes requires about 140Ah per day, and charging at 30 amps (in the winter with little solar) that would need the engine running for four hours each day. That's a fair bit of diesel, is that. Couldn't your proletarian friend press their other alternator into service, feeding a separate lead acid and running via a separate length of cable, and maybe double the charge? (I'm available for moral guidance as well as electrical consultancy.)

I hope you wont be put off by the odd rather brusque comment, in fairness these people are very very knowledgeable, but they do get asked the same question almost on a daily basis, and there are a few basics its important for them to know in order to help properly. I remember I had a similar problem when I first got my boat- I would cruise all day (plus 660 watts of solar panels), and the batteries would appear to be brim full, but by 11pm they would be down to 12.2, and I'd be wondering if the diesel CH was going to come on in the morning. If you are serious electrical users you have to be looking at some lithium batteries to help out, they really are a game changer. There is one piece of advice above that I would also strongly reiterate. If you haven't already, get a solid fuel stove installed asap. I got my boat in August and by late Oct, the CH just wasnt enough. I was running it for half the day (which now will cost a lot more for diesel), and I had condensation every morning. I had a SF stove put in by mid-November, and the transformation was instant and amazing. The boat was suddenly really warm, but also with a dry heat, so no condensation, and was a much more pleasant environment to live in. At no point during the night was the temp inside fall below about 15 degrees, and in the mornings the stove could be brought back to full life with a few minutes minor effort. Coal is a hassle and a bit messy, but it transformed my boat, and I wouldn't even contemplate being on a boat in winter without a SF stove. Apologies if you've got one and just not mentioned it, but if you haven't, you need to give it some serious thought asap.

I must apologise Tony, I'm probably not explaining the setup correctly, or the issue- and this was 18 months ago now. After the first B2B was installed, I tried running a cable directly from each alternator onto a common post, and from there, a single cable went into the lead acid battery. From the lead acid, the charge then went into the B2B. So at this point, there was no need for an A2B charger. But what we found was that even with a charging current of about 60 amps, one of the alternators was overheating and the other stayed cool. The electrician who was doing part of the work said that the cool alternator was almost certainly not working, and was leaving the other alternator to do all the work. And for my poor alternators, 60 amps is too much over more than 15 mins, and they get too hot. He measured the voltages of the two alternators, and one was I think about 0.4v lower than the other. If memory serves, it was the lower voltage alternator that was not doing any work, because the higher voltage from the other alternator was overriding it in some way that I dont understand. Once I separated the two alternators so that they each fed into their own lead acid battery and their own B2B charger, they both ran all of the time. To have alternators regulated at such different voltages sounds like its a really poor setup and install when the boat was new, but I mentioned it because it may be an issue for the OP, if he wants to try and get both alternators charging at their safe max. ETA- as a result of separating out the two alternators into different 'routes', both now work at their individual safe maximum currents, and I can charge the lithiums at a combined 90-95 amps if I need to, although I am conscious that 95 amps is a lot of power for a V belt to handle (sadly neither of mine are poly V belts), so I dont always run the charge at its full potential.

Firstly I must caveat this by saying that you will get proper answers from the experts, and this is just a personal experience that may have some similarities. I also found that it was not financially viable to upgrade my alternator to a decent model, so I'm stuck with 100 amp domestic and 80 amp engine alternators. The problem I ran into was that these cheaper alternators cannot maintain their rated current output for a useful length of time. With lead acid batteries thats not such a big deal because after say 10 minutes of charging, the LAs internal resistance against charging starts to build up, and so that reduces the amount drawn from the alternator. But lithiums will draw almost everything the alternator can produce, and so if you connect them directly to the alternator, they will draw its maximum current, and within 10 minutes it will be overheating, and will be at risk of burnout. From what I've seen, my impression is that an 80 amp alternator will probably be able to put out about 40 amps on a continuous basis before it starts getting a bit hot, so its possible your maximum potential charging current will be somewhere between 70-90 amps, so thats not too bad. My solution to limit the current was to use two 50 amp Sterling B2B chargers (I'll explain why I use two in a bit), but these are not cheap, at £300 or more. A cheaper and simpler way of limiting the current is to install a long length of 16mm cable before the charge hits the lithiums. There are threads on here and youtube videos about it, with the necessary detail. One setup that people have been using is a lead acid battery in parallel between the alternator and the lithiums. This acts as a buffer and prevents damage to the alternator by continuing to accept charge if/when the lithiums stop charging abruptly. I initially tried to wire both my alternators to provide a single charge route into a lead acid battery, but it didnt work because my alternators are regulated to different voltages, and one of them ended up doing all the work whilst the other hardly ever delivered any charge. So check the alternators voltage to make sure they will work at the same time, and if they do, you can use a single lead acid battery and keep the setup simpler. What you dont want is for one or other alternator to be cutting out at some point during charging, leaving the other unit to do all the work. My solution to this was to set up two charging 'routes', ie one LA battery linked to each alternator (the A2B charger was ditched as I was using B2Bs, but I think you'll need an A2B charger in place- but again, someone who knows their stuff will confirm that). So in my setup, from each LA battery the charge goes into a B2B (then a fuse), and then the B2Bs feed onto a positive bus and on into the lithiums. But anyway, hopefully the experts will be along shortly to give you a proper explanation of a suitable setup. You won't regret getting lithiums. ETA- just a thought here, but if your A2B is broken, and if your alternators work at different voltages like mine (which to be fair is not usual), then its decision time: do you splash out on a new A2B charger, and use cheap lengths of wire to limit the current, or do you do what I did and buy a B2B instead, and not use an A2B at all? Bear in mind the B2Bs are inherently inefficient, and at least 10% of the energy they take is wasted as heat. Also with mine, they got so hot running at full chat (50 amps) that they kept switching into half power mode, so I wouldnt assume you'll even get the full rated 50 amps from them tbh, possibly more like 45 amps. And the limitation with the B2Bs is you only have two current settings: either full on charging at 45-50 amps, or half power at about 25-30 amps. If your alternators are good to put out a total of say 80 amps, a B2B charger wont be able to impose that precise current limit on the alternator (unless you buy two of the B2Bs, and run one at full power and another at half power- but thats getting expensive). This where the length of thin wire method is better- you can work out how hard your alternators can safely work without overheating, and you can cut a length of wire to limit the current to exactly the safe level. In your place, I'd be tempted to buy an A2B, and use thin wire to limit the current, BUT on the proviso that both alternators work together at the same voltage- you dont want one of them stopping while the other runs, as I mentioned above.

Not to harp on or anything, but if you are a liveaboard then lithiums really do make a difference- and especially if you have some solar panels and a decent charging system. You have to get into the mindset of looking at it as a 10 year investment, and then it makes a bit more sense. Today I'm moored with a lot of trees around, and this has been the first day since April that I've had to run the engine specifically for charging- and even then it was just half an hour. And if I moved 300 yards further up to a more open location, I wouldn't have had to even run the engine today. For a liveaboard, lithiums with solar panels are a real game changer. I think a good branded 100Ah lithium battery at £500 is the best value there is going to be for a long time to come.

I'll take it! 😂