3-way fridge

[blackrose]

Re open flued appliances - BSS say one thing CORGI say something else- ie absolutely NO open flued appliances to be fitted on new boats except for a cooking appliance. However as long as parts are available you can keep an old appliance going Ad Infinitum.

 

The BSS (& RCD) say the same thing as CORGI but they're talking about fully fitted boats built by professional boatbuilders/fitters. However, my understanding from personal communications with the BSS, is that individuals fitting out their own sailaways are not restricted by these rulings. If you think about it why else would chandlerys still be allowed to sell non-room sealed appliances?

[Dave Hannigan]

A little interesting fact on that is while many consider or would like others to believe the only definition of "competent person" is a CORGI LPG Boat qualified fitter and they are the only ones qualified to work on a boat, their own COP prevents them from working on non room sealed appliances!

This is not so, we can work on existing non room sealed appliances but cannot install new ones, either as first fix OR replacement. If an existing appliance was found to be not working safely then a warning notice would be issued and permission sought, from the owner, to disconnect the appliance. If that permission is denied there is nothing we can do !!!

 

Rinnai heaters are safer than Palomas because they have inbuilt CO sensing/shutdown, why they are banned from new builds mystifies me.

 

It is not a CO sensor it is an oxygen depletion sensor and works on principal that if the appliance is faulty and CO is being produced then it will deplete the available oxygen in the room, if there is a slight draught of fresh air near to the pilot then it is possible to produce enough CO to kill you before the unit shuts down. It has happened at least once to my knowledge. Not on a boat I hasten to add

[Gary Peacock]

The BSS (& RCD) say the same thing as CORGI but they're talking about fully fitted boats built by professional boatbuilders/fitters. However, my understanding from personal communications with the BSS, is that individuals fitting out their own sailaways are not restricted by these rulings. If you think about it why else would chandlerys still be allowed to sell non-room sealed appliances?

 

 

The RCD applies to any boat displaying or claiming to have CE marking regardless of the status of the builder, it's now one rule for one and one rule for all, along with the fines and or prison sentence for breaking the law in regards to it.

 

If the boat is not CE marked there are no problems without the BSS do a U turn in light of recent carbon monoxide poisonings both on and off the water.

 

The RCD in the next few years will evolve into a worldwide standard it will be interesting to see how things evolve then with regard to boat safety.

[blackrose]

The RCD applies to any boat displaying or claiming to have CE marking regardless of the status of the builder, it's now one rule for one and one rule for all, along with the fines and or prison sentence for breaking the law in regards to it.

Agreed, but there's another rule for those fitting out their own boat who are not going down the CE route and do not intend to sell their boat within 5 years. The original question was from such a boater.

 

If the boat is not CE marked there are no problems without the BSS do a U turn in light of recent carbon monoxide poisonings both on and off the water.

?????? Gary, some clarity please! (or perhaps just some punctuation so I can work out what this means... )

 

The RCD in the next few years will evolve into a worldwide standard it will be interesting to see how things evolve then with regard to boat safety.

Indeed.

[Gary Peacock]

If the boat is not CE marked there are no problems because you can apply the BSS rules. That is without the BSS do a U turn in light of recent carbon monoxide poisonings both on and off the water and change the rules.

 

Basically the RCD and ISO's don't change very often because of the technical processes that have to be observed, however the BSS can chop and change if the have a rethink.

[blackrose]

If the boat is not CE marked there are no problems because you can apply the BSS rules. That is without the BSS do a U turn in light of recent carbon monoxide poisonings both on and off the water and change the rules.

 

Basically the RCD and ISO's don't change very often because of the technical processes that have to be observed, however the BSS can chop and change if the have a rethink.

 

Yes, that's true but if the BSS hasn't owtlawed all non-room sealed applainces by now then they seem unlikely to do so, and also when these changes like this take effect they're seldom applied retrospectively (or are they?)

 

Anyway, if we're talking non-room sealed appliances then surely solid fuel stoves must be the worst offenders in terms of air consumption and potential for internal CO emissions. So in theory they could be banned from new boats in the future, but I can't see them insisting that older boats rip out their stoves .

[Gary Peacock]

I have to put my hands up and say I don't know a lot about the BSS because it isn't relevant to new boat builds with CE marking.

 

Basically they are an independent organisation so they would seem to be free to implement whatever changes they deem to be required.

 

So I suppose we need to ask the members if they have ever been required to make changes to any aspects of an existing boat? Or is it just a case of if it was done that way originally they just accept it and issue a certificate anyway?

[elessina]

Am I wrong in thinking that CO (Carbon Monoxide) is the biggest killer on boats (greater risk than drowning or fire etc.), and a non-room sealed fridge is one of (if not 'the') biggest contributors of deaths on boats through CO poisoning.

 

And yet it appears that:-

 

* Boat builders are not allowed to install a non-room sealed fridge.

* Anyone competent at gas installations (CORGI, LPG trained fitters) is not allowed to install non-room sealed fridges

* The BSS regulation states 'all equipment should be room sealed', but 'should' is not a 'mandatory' requirement.... So that means it is ok!!

 

If I am reading this correctly, the BSS regulation seems to encourage people to DIY install their own non-room sealed fridge (as no one competent can), because new non-room sealed fridges are now allowed under the BSS..... They were illegal under original BSS (2000) regulations.

 

Surely this BSS regulation is completely wrong and needs to be amended to state that non-room sealed fridges installed after (todays date) are not allowed before more people die of non-room sealed fridge CO poisoning. Especially when there is a room sealed fridge on the market that can be installed by boat builders and CORGI installers, and meets all safety requirements.

 

Ian

[Gary Peacock]

Boat SAFETY Scheme?

 

Ian I think you have just pointed out a small flaw?

 

Stability after all is nothing to do with safety either is it?

[Guest]

Yes, that's true but if the BSS hasn't owtlawed all non-room sealed applainces by now then they seem unlikely to do so, and also when these changes like this take effect they're seldom applied retrospectively (or are they?)

 

Anyway, if we're talking non-room sealed appliances then surely solid fuel stoves must be the worst offenders in terms of air consumption and potential for internal CO emissions. So in theory they could be banned from new boats in the future, but I can't see them insisting that older boats rip out their stoves .

I've argued this for ages but got battered on here for saying it. However I am thick skinned; so I believe that if a (properly installed) non-room sealed multifuel stove is safe, the so is a (properly installed) non room sealed Paloma, gas fridge etc. By the other token if the (properly installed) fridge, Paloma is unsafe, then so is the stove. What is the difference? They all produce CO, consume oxygen and are non-room sealed. The Boat Safety bods can't have it both ways. Sorry. When we live aboard we will have a Paloma. I am yet to be convinced that there is a more convenient and efficient way of heating water on my boat. Best thing we ever had on the previous boat.

 

Sadly people have died owing to incorrectly installed non-room sealed appliances. To put things in perspective you must ask yourself how many people have survived with these appliances. The problem lies with poor maintenance/installation, not the appliances themselves.

[NB Alnwick]

I've argued this for ages but got battered on here for saying it. However I am thick skinned; so I believe that if a (properly installed) non-room sealed multifuel stove is safe, the so is a (properly installed) non room sealed Paloma, gas fridge etc. By the other token if the (properly installed) fridge, Paloma is unsafe, then so is the stove. What is the difference? They all produce CO, consume oxygen and are non-room sealed. The Boat Safety bods can't have it both ways. Sorry. When we live aboard we will have a Paloma. I am yet to be convinced that there is a more convenient and efficient way of heating water on my boat. Best thing we ever had on the previous boat.

 

Sadly people have died owing to incorrectly installed non-room sealed appliances. To put things in perspective you must ask yourself how many people have survived with these appliances. The problem lies with poor maintenance/installation, not the appliances themselves.

 

Well said!

 

Couldn't agree more . . .

[Guest]

Well said!

 

Couldn't agree more . . .

!!!!!!!!!

Sorry am having a little trouble adjusting to someone agreeing!

[blackrose]

Am I wrong in thinking that CO (Carbon Monoxide) is the biggest killer on boats (greater risk than drowning or fire etc.), and a non-room sealed fridge is one of (if not 'the') biggest contributors of deaths on boats through CO poisoning.

 

CO may be the biggest killer on boats, but I don't know if this comes from non-room sealed appliances or not Ian? From the latest BSS warning it sounded like generators were the biggest culprits. What was the source of your information?

 

When we live aboard we will have a Paloma. I am yet to be convinced that there is a more convenient and efficient way of heating water on my boat. Best thing we ever had on the previous boat.

 

You can always buy a room-sealed Paloma (or other brand) as long as you don't mind spending 3 times as much!

[Guest]

CO may be the biggest killer on boats, but I don't know if this comes from non-room sealed appliances or not Ian? From the latest BSS warning it sounded like generators were the biggest culprits. What was the source of your information?

You can always buy a room-sealed Paloma (or other brand) as long as you don't mind spending 3 times as much!

Or you could put a standard Paloma in a steel "locker" that draws air from outside the boat?

[blackrose]

Or you could put a standard Paloma in a steel "locker" that draws air from outside the boat?

 

Haven't heard that one before... but do you have to go outside to switch it on?

[elessina]

Sadly people have died owing to incorrectly installed non-room sealed appliances. To put things in perspective you must ask yourself how many people have survived with these appliances. The problem lies with poor maintenance/installation, not the appliances themselves.

 

The problem is, or so it would appear, is that you can not have a boat builder or competent person install one under BSS regulations. So anyone wanting a non-room sealed appliance seems to be forced into a DIY installation, surely the worst possible scenario !!!

 

Clearly BSS discourage non-room sealed appliance installation. In my opinion they should either be banned or installation must be allowed to be done by a competent person (eg CORGI LPG fitter)..

 

CO may be the biggest killer on boats, but I don't know if this comes from non-room sealed appliances or not Ian? From the latest BSS warning it sounded like generators were the biggest culprits. What was the source of your information?

 

I have no data, just seems (to me) that over the years reading of CO incidents many seem to be caused by fridges. It would be good to see real data.

 

Ian

[NB Alnwick]

A quick question for the technical wizards on this forum - we have always been led to believe that our Electrolux three way fridge is 'room sealed' - it draws air from outside the boat and exhausts outside the boat - the flame appears to be completely enclosed and fitted with fail safe devices. We understand that this is one of the reasons why, when the gas runs out, we need to restart it on electricity - either AC off the generator or DC of the cabin batteries. Are these units not regarded as 'room sealed' for some specific reason or is my understanding of 'room sealed' in error?

[Timleech]

I have no data, just seems (to me) that over the years reading of CO incidents many seem to be caused by fridges. It would be good to see real data.

 

Ian

 

I think you'll probably find the main 'cause' (most accidents are the result of more than one cause coinciding) is often blocked/inadequate ventilation.

 

Tim

[John Orentas]

What I think has not been mentioned is that the incidents with CO2 poisoning are usually caused by appliances being left on overnight whist the occupants of the apartment or boat are sleeping. In the case of an instantaneous water heater by definition this is unlikely to be a problem, few water heaters will be running for more than a minute or so at a time.

 

In the case of a gas powered fridge the amount of gas burned and the flame is so tiny, it is not easy to see that even a major fault could put lives at risk. It would help us all to define the scale of danger if the authorities would publish some data on casualties but I understand they have for many years declined to do so.

[blackrose]

I think you'll probably find the main 'cause' (most accidents are the result of more than one cause coinciding) is often blocked/inadequate ventilation.

 

Tim

 

Very true.

[elessina]

I think you'll probably find the main 'cause' (most accidents are the result of more than one cause coinciding) is often blocked/inadequate ventilation.

 

Tim

 

Good point, very true.

[bottle]

A quick question for the technical wizards on this forum - we have always been led to believe that our Electrolux three way fridge is 'room sealed' - it draws air from outside the boat and exhausts outside the boat - the flame appears to be completely enclosed and fitted with fail safe devices. We understand that this is one of the reasons why, when the gas runs out, we need to restart it on electricity - either AC off the generator or DC of the cabin batteries. Are these units not regarded as 'room sealed' for some specific reason or is my understanding of 'room sealed' in error?

 

Hi Graham

 

Your Eletrolux is room sealed.

[NB Alnwick]

In the case of a gas powered fridge the amount of gas burned and the flame is so tiny, it is not easy to see that even a major fault could put lives at risk.

 

That is quite useful to know - similarly, our other uses of gas, cooker and Morco water heater are both off for most of the time and certainly completely off while we sleep.

 

Your Eletrolux is room sealed.

 

As I thought - thanks for that re-assurance . . .

 

I think you'll probably find the main 'cause' (most accidents are the result of more than one cause coinciding) is often blocked/inadequate ventilation.

 

We had a completely blocked chimney from our Morso Squirrel when we were at Foxton during January 2006 - the fire went out and when we tryed to re-light it it just wouldn't. We then cleared all the damp soot out of the chimney and it went fine - that taught us to keep our chimney swept!

 

We have now installed a smoke detector and CO detector - both self contained with their own batteries as an added measure of safety.

Edited May 1, 2007 by NB Alnwick

[bottle]

I have no proof but my thoughts are that the problems with 'flames' not burning correctly are inadequate maintenance and inadequate ventilation.

 

If these are observed then all appliances are safe.

 

I was told, as I expect many others were, you can make something foolproof but it is not possible to make it idiot proof.

[NB Alnwick]

I have no proof but my thoughts are that the problems with 'flames' not burning correctly are inadequate maintenance and inadequate ventilation.

 

If these are observed then all appliances are safe.

 

I was told, as I expect many others were, you can make something foolproof but it is not possible to make it idiot proof.

 

I think this thread has been particularly useful in helping to get an understanding of the potential dangers from LPG and solid fuel combustion.