Engine advice for a new narrowboat please

[happychap]

Hi

 

I'm new here and am about to place an order for my new narrowboat. It will be a 57' trad boat. I had short listed either the Beta 38 or 43 engines but at this weekend's IWA show I looked at the Lister Canalstar 40 which seems to sit midway between the Betas which is nice as the Beta 38 is a little light on power, the 43 more that I need.

 

So, your help please. Anyone out there have experience of the Lister? It comes with 5 years warranty, PRM 150 g'box and a great price.

 

Thanks in advance and in anticipation..............

 

[Callum]

Hi

 

I'm new here and am about to place an order for my new narrowboat. It will be a 57' trad boat. I had short listed either the Beta 38 or 43 engines but at this weekend's IWA show I looked at the Lister Canalstar 40 which seems to sit midway between the Betas which is nice as the Beta 38 is a little light on power, the 43 more that I need.

 

So, your help please. Anyone out there have experience of the Lister? It comes with 5 years warranty, PRM 150 g'box and a great price.

 

Thanks in advance and in anticipation..............

 

 

Hello Happychap,

 

Have you actually spoken to Beta and/or got a brochure, since although not listed on their website they also do a 39hp engine, which produces more torque than the 38 and at a lower rpm and might be a closer match to the Canalstar 40.

 

The size/number of alternators fitted as standard varies between engine manufacturers of course, should that be an issue for you.

 

Your chosen builder will probably have a favoured engine too, just to complicate matters further.

[NB Willawaw]

You might be interested in this:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...wtopic=4843&hl=

 

You have to ask yourself why it comes with a 5 year warranty and a great price ??

 

What engine is the builder trying to convince you to accept ?

They usually have their own bias based on their arrangements with the maker in question.

Edited August 29, 2006 by NB Willawaw

[charles123]

Very difficult comparing prices as you need to list all the things you get for your money then take off the trade discount that the builder will get plus any incentives offered to the builder at the time of order. I doubt you can do the costing yourself as you dont have access to the botton line prices. In any event I doubt there is much price diffence when it comes down to it.

 

Other points

 

In my opinion a second alternator is of little value

Go for the more powerfull engine, for that size boat it will come in handy at times

Specify an upgrade to a higher output alternator, you will see the benefit

 

Please let us know how this finished up, so often questions are asked, people go to the troble of giving their opinion then the person asking the question is not heard of again

 

good luck

 

Charles

[jollyroger]

Torque is more important than HP

[frangar]

I have a vintage lister but for what its worth I wouldnt bother with a Beta.....I have had to work on them from time to time and when you get in touch with Beta giving full details (Serial Number/Build No etc) they dont have a clue about what is fitted to the engine and in one case they kept trying to tell me it couldnt have that type of alternator fitted even tho the engine was brand new and I had the unit infront of me! I would go for a Nanni, they are based on the same engine (Kubota) and seem to be better made and the suppliers seem to be better informed. Can anybody verify this???

 

 

Gareth

[John Orentas]

These discussions are never very satisfactory as all the contributers will recommend the engine that is fitted in their boat or at least the one that they have some experience of. The problem is that most modern diesels are very reliable and need little attention so impossible to say if one is better than another.

 

I too have communicated with Beta in the past in connection with a boat belonging to a friend, the engine was supplied with a very small and unsuitable gearbox under pressure from a builder who wanted to cut the price down, after many letters and phone calls they admitted that they had done just that. As has been said they are technically poor too.

 

When we talk about Torque in the context of narrowboats we are simply saying that they run at lower revs and yes I would agree that a higher torque engine is better, and on balance an engine a 'bit big' is better than one 'a bit small'.

 

Can't agree with Charles about second alternators, if I was to build another boat I would certainly go for the double alternator option.

 

I would chose a PRM box too.

 

Go for the Lister if only for the name!

[bottle]

When we talk about Torque in the context of narrowboats we are simply saying that they run at lower revs and yes I would agree that a higher torque engine is better, and on balance an engine a 'bit big' is better than one 'a bit small'.

 

I agree take the 38 and 43 of beta max torque is at 2200rpm and1600rpm respectively if you wish to have a look go to beta's web site here

[Edders]

Very difficult comparing prices as you need to list all the things you get for your money then take off the trade discount that the builder will get plus any incentives offered to the builder at the time of order. I doubt you can do the costing yourself as you dont have access to the botton line prices. In any event I doubt there is much price diffence when it comes down to it.

 

Other points

 

In my opinion a second alternator is of little value

Go for the more powerfull engine, for that size boat it will come in handy at times

Specify an upgrade to a higher output alternator, you will see the benefit

 

Please let us know how this finished up, so often questions are asked, people go to the troble of giving their opinion then the person asking the question is not heard of again

 

good luck

 

Charles

 

 

I cannot see why a second alternator is of little value. Surely having separate alternators for charging the leisure and starter batteries is desirable, especially if you have a reasonable size leisure battery bank.

 

Edders

[charles123]

I cannot see why a second alternator is of little value. Surely having separate alternators for charging the leisure and starter batteries is desirable, especially if you have a reasonable size leisure battery bank.

 

Edders

 

Not everyone will agree my opinion on this but here goes. The second alternator is solely to charge the starter battery. On a modern engine they start very easily therefore dont need much charge putting back in. Therefore on a split charging system the single alternator can easily cope with the charging needs of the starter and leisure bank. However on balance if the engine maker is supplying a second one at no additional cost then you might as well have it. What is more important overall is the output of the alternator as for example a 70 amp alternator will probably only provide about 50 amps, therefore if a new buyer has the option of a upgrade to say 100 amps then that will be a benefit especially when static running the engine to charge batteries as there wil be saving in time

 

Charles

[bottle]

Another way of looking at it is:

 

If you have two alternators and one goes 'down' then you have a safety net and all your batteries will not be discharged at the same time.

[Ernie]

I would go for a Nanni, they are based on the same engine (Kubota) and seem to be better made and the suppliers seem to be better informed. Can anybody verify this???

 

I have a Nanni 4.195 in my 60 footer and so far am very happy with it (it's only done 800 hours).

I have had a couple of minor problems, the bracket for the Electrolux alternator broke and the main battery charging alternator failed a couple of weeks ago (it's 4 and a 1/2 years old). On both occasions, I contacted AR Peachment, the Nanni importers and they were more than helpful. They sent me a new uprated bracket free of charge and sold me a new uprated alternator at a very reasonable price.

Based on my experience so far, if I were going for a new build and was looking for a modern engine, I would go for another Nanni.

[jollyroger]

Which is the best engine? easy - - - It's the one that starts every time and runs untill you stop it

[awatsonbcp]

surely they should all do this?

[happychap]

Thanks for your comments. To add some additional information:

 

We selected 5 builders of quality hulls who we visited. From that list we short-listed 2 and have now made our selection. All 5 suggested either (or both) the Isuzu 42 or Beta 38 (with Beta 43 as an option).

 

My question was aimed at getting a view on the Lister Canalstar 40 vs the Beta choices rather than anything else. The Lister dealer offered such a great price specifically because he wants to have one of the Lister engines in our chosen builder's boats - to date the builder has not fitted any.

 

So that was it really, is the Lister a good choice? As it happens, it looks like there will be little difference in the overall cost to me whichever engine I choose due to the fitting and associated ancillary costs.

 

My question still remains, Beta 38 vs Lister Canalstar 40, the Lister has an extra 30nm of torque.

 

[bottle]

Happychap

 

People will probably come down on the side of the engine that they have, neither are a 'bad engine' and will work in the boat planned.

 

I will be having a 60 footer and the Beta 43, I will be doing some river work (the Severn), I like a bit of power in reserve.

 

Thought about the new 50 but after talking to a Beta engineer I think this would be overkill.

 

My philosophy with engines (cars) has always been the bigger the better (within reason) a bigger engine has to work less hard to move the same weight and the economy does not suffer.

 

Back in my boy racer days, I had a 1600cc Mk2 Cortina (age showing ) and an older colleague at work had the same model except it was 1300cc, now I was getting better mpg although my engine was bigger.

After travelling in his, mine was also quieter and less 'frantic'.

 

Power is not the total, torque is a factor and how that is delivered, Low 'revs' high torque, makes for a quieter less stressed engine and you.

 

Sorry to ramble but I think you get the drift .

 

I would not wish to make the decision for you.

[Golden Duck]

Really you seem to be asking is the Lister Canalstar a good engine ??

 

What you need is someone who has one, to comment ?

 

We can all dribble on about how good or bad our Beta or Izuzu engine is, but it

doesn't help you with your decision.

[bottle]

We can all dribble on about how good or bad our Beta or Izuzu engine is, but it

doesn't help you with your decision.

 

I represent that remark

[happychap]

Happychap

 

People will probably come down on the side of the engine that they have, neither are a 'bad engine' and will work in the boat planned.

 

My philosophy with engines (cars) has always been the bigger the better (within reason) a bigger engine has to work less hard to move the same weight and the economy does not suffer.

 

Power is not the total, torque is a factor and how that is delivered, Low 'revs' high torque, makes for a quieter less stressed engine and you.

 

 

I agree, it's very difficult to get good, totally unbiased advice on anything!

 

My own car has a V6 2.5l engine specifically for that purpose as I used to until recently drive 40k miles a year. My concerm with the narrowboat though is to have enough 'extra' without going over the top as this is just extra and unneccesary cost. Our boat builder says he will fit either and would recommend the Beta but I just suspect he gets a good discount and more than he will get if we supply the Lister. Maybe I am just scinical

 

I was just hoping I'd find some Lister users here with an opinion.

[happychap]

Hello Happychap,

 

Have you actually spoken to Beta and/or got a brochure, since although not listed on their website they also do a 39hp engine, which produces more torque than the 38 and at a lower rpm and might be a closer match to the Canalstar 40.

 

The size/number of alternators fitted as standard varies between engine manufacturers of course, should that be an issue for you.

 

Your chosen builder will probably have a favoured engine too, just to complicate matters further.

 

I did speak with Beta who did not suggest the 39 though were pushing me towards the 43. The builder says the 43 is over-kill, Beta say the 38 is marginal with a 57' boat. I will check out the 39, awaiting a call back from Beta, much more torque at at the same rpm as the 43 but I wonder if the 3 cylinders will be noisier than 4? I am supposed to be eliminating one of the two, not adding a third!

 

[happychap]

You might be interested in this:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...wtopic=4843&hl=

 

You have to ask yourself why it comes with a 5 year warranty and a great price ??

 

What engine is the builder trying to convince you to accept ?

They usually have their own bias based on their arrangements with the maker in question.

 

A 5 year warranty must surely mean that the supplier is confident that 'their' liabilities and costs over that 5 year period will be safe - in other words they have confidence in the product and maybe also they want to give more back to the customer. Isuzu on the other hand only offer 2 years - what does that say about their confidence in their product?

 

As for great price, well our builder is a highly reputable and nationally recognised top builder and the Lister supplier wants to get this guy to fit a Lister in one of his boats and maybe get him to offer the Canastar as a 'standard' option - which at present he doesn't.

 

The builder suggests the Beta 38 which we may end up going with, I have discounted Isuzu already.

 

[John Orentas]

I agree, it's very difficult to get good, totally unbiased advice on anything!

 

My own car has a V6 2.5l engine specifically for that purpose as I used to until recently drive 40k miles a year. My concerm with the narrowboat though is to have enough 'extra' without going over the top as this is just extra and unneccesary cost. Our boat builder says he will fit either and would recommend the Beta but I just suspect he gets a good discount and more than he will get if we supply the Lister. Maybe I am just scinical

 

I was just hoping I'd find some Lister users here with an opinion.

 

 

As you acknowledge getting good advice is a problem. For various reasons there are much fewer Listers around than some others and for that reason alone you will not get an unbiased view, though at one time Lister they had a virtual monopoly with canal boats.

 

There could be an argument that all things being equal you are, with a Lister at least buying from the people who design and build them and presumably you will ultimately have some access to them. With marinised Japanese diesels your only option is to talk to the importers/ marinisers of the engine who will have varying levels of expertise. The people in Japan will never have seen a canal boat, from their point of view they are probably supplying units to drive a cement mixer.

 

What weight you attach to the above is up to you.

Edited August 31, 2006 by John Orentas

[NB Willawaw]

But John, haven't you got a marinised BMW on your boat ?

 

As you acknowledge getting good advice is a problem. For various reasons there are much fewer Listers around than some others and for that reason alone you will not get an unbiased view, though at one time Lister they had a virtual monopoly with canal boats.

 

There could be an argument that all things being equal you are, with a Lister at least buying from the people who design and build them and presumably you will ultimately have some access to them. With marinised Japanese diesels your only option is to talk to the importers/ marinisers of the engine who will have varying levels of expertise. The people in Japan will never have seen a canal boat, from their point of view they are probably supplying units to drive a cement mixer.

 

What weight you attach to the above is up to you.

[John Orentas]

But John, haven't you got a marinised BMW on your boat ?

 

Hi Mark.

 

No. It is a BMW marine diesel there is a big difference. Designed and manufactured specifically for boat propulsion.

 

For example:

 

Twin pack epoxy paint finish.

Single side servicing.

All electrics at high level

Additional starter motor location

Electrical wiring to US Coastguard specifications

30 degree heel angle

Continuous output 45 bhp (same as max power)

 

Want to buy it ?

Edited August 31, 2006 by John Orentas

[Yoda]

I did speak with Beta who did not suggest the 39 though were pushing me towards the 43. The builder says the 43 is over-kill, Beta say the 38 is marginal with a 57' boat. I will check out the 39, awaiting a call back from Beta, much more torque at at the same rpm as the 43 but I wonder if the 3 cylinders will be noisier than 4? I am supposed to be eliminating one of the two, not adding a third!

 

 

Horses for courses.

 

You need an engine/gearbox/prop to suit what you are going to do. If you are living on the boat you need more battery charging, on rivers you need more power (torgue)

 

So if you have heavy demands on an engine get one with plenty of low down torque so that you are not having to rev it all of the time.