Boat and butty

[allybsc]

Hello,

 

I've lurked on this forum for quite a while now whilst I've been looking for a boat, I've had a mooring booked for nearly a year without finding that special boat! I've been looking for a traditional boat with a a bit of historical interest at a decent price but so far no luck in my price range, I've found a boat (Tug Odin) and butty (2 x 34ft) on boatshop uk that might fit the bill, but before I travel down to see them I was wondering if there were considerations that I havn't forseen!!! are they difficult to handle? What about travelling through locks during busy times....the layout suggests that they would have to travel together at all times ie kitchen in one side...bog in the other!!! I've only minimal boating experience but my partner and I are going on a 2 day handling course in a couple of weeks, any thoughts?

 

Regards,

Ally P.

[Alec Gatherer]

Saw them advertised and was most curious. Seems to me that they would be a real handful for lengthy cruises, especially if you're short-handed, but they seem to ooze character. If you do go to see them, I would love to hear your impression after seeing them in the flesh.

[allybsc]

Saw them advertised and was most curious. Seems to me that they would be a real handful for lengthy cruises, especially if you're short-handed, but they seem to ooze character. If you do go to see them, I would love to hear your impression after seeing them in the flesh.

 

Hi Alec,

We should have plenty of hands on longer cruises, we have two girls of twelve and one fourteen year old boy, plus numerous friends who are champing at the bit for a weekend away, if it is just the pair of us then we will be going from silsden to skipton and back again, i'm sure we could manage the bridges (even though I've broken the one at kildwick twice now) I like the idea of having something different and a bit of a challenge. I'm waiting for a call to make a date to see them, will let you know what they are like...anyone else think they might be a tad overpriced...or am i just being mean!!!

Regards,

Ally p.

[Alec Gatherer]

Aaaah....Leeds & Liverpool. Never been on it. You'll be buggered for towing the butty behind you through locks then....but maybe breasted up would be easier all round? Out of curiosity, what's breasted up like for normal cruising?

[allybsc]

Aaaah....Leeds & Liverpool. Never been on it. You'll be buggered for towing the butty behind you through locks then....but maybe breasted up would be easier all round? Out of curiosity, what's breasted up like for normal cruising?

 

I envisaged going breasted up through locks, singles should be OK, but would we cause terrible traffic jams at ladder locks, i've not so far done one as i've only been on the same stretch of the L&L, the handling course should sort us out there, doing part of the four counties and the harecastle tunnel (hoping to see the bogart) can't wait to get my teeth into it.

Reagrds,

Ally p.

[John Orentas]

Have I missed something here, if both boats are 34ft you will have no problems at all going through narrow locks they will both fit in together and staircase locks will be just the same, with wide locks you will have the choice between breasting up or towing through.

 

Breasting up narrowboats works much better that may be imagined, it is the preferred option on the Bridgewater with a broken down boat and I think still compulsory for some silly reason on the Manchester Ship Canal.

[allybsc]

Have I missed something here, if both boats are 34ft you will have no problems at all going through narrow locks they will both fit in together and staircase locks will be just the same, with wide locks you will have the choice between breasting up or towing through.

 

Breasting up narrowboats works much better that may be imagined, it is the preferred option on the Bridgewater with a broken down boat and I think still compulsory for some silly reason on the Manchester Ship Canal.

 

Hi John,

That sounds reassuring, when I haven't done something before I get a bit "chicken Licken" but...I'm a fast learner, I can't imagine that there will be too many pelple out there with experiene of towing a butty unless they belong to one of the groups that save historic boats or have maybe towed a friend when broken down...but then what do i know, i'm just a novice (actually my partner tells me i'm a boating anorak)

Regards,

Ally P.

[Alec Gatherer]

Have I missed something here, if both boats are 34ft you will have no problems at all going through narrow locks they will both fit in together and staircase locks will be just the same, with wide locks you will have the choice between breasting up or towing through.

 

I was going on reports that the L&L locks are 60ft long, hence breasting up the only option - incorrect?

[John Orentas]

Hi John,

That sounds reassuring, when I haven't done something before I get a bit "chicken Licken" but...I'm a fast learner, I can't imagine that there will be too many pelple out there with experiene of towing a butty unless they belong to one of the groups that save historic boats or have maybe towed a friend when broken down...but then what do i know, i'm just a novice (actually my partner tells me i'm a boating anorak)

Regards,

Ally P.

 

 

There was a chap on the Bridgewater some years ago who had a similar set-up, a 25ft tug and a 40ft butty, both boats were self contained. When he had his spouse and kids with him he would take both boats out, when on his own he just took the tug.

 

Always seemed at the time to be an ideal combination.

 

I have always thought it would not be difficult to have an improved tow hitch arrangement and a simple remote steering arrangement for the butty enabling one person to steer both boats.

[allybsc]

I was going on reports that the L&L locks are 60ft long, hence breasting up the only option - incorrect?

 

That was my understanding too

 

There was a chap on the Bridgewater some years ago who had a similar set-up, a 25ft tug and a 40ft butty, both boats were self contained. When he had his spouse and kids with him he would take both boats out, when on his own he just took the tug.

 

Always seemed at the time to be an ideal combination.

 

I have always thought it would not be difficult to have an improved tow hitch arrangement and a simple remote steering arrangement for the butty enabling one person to steer both boats.

 

I'm hoping so, seemed like a good way of getting more cabin space when I'm limited to 60ft, although it may just be more deck length when I see them, I'm sticking to the L&L because all of my boating friends are there and it's not too much of a drive from sunny Northumberland where I live. Unless we re-jig the insides we would have to take both boats out everytime.

Regards,

Ally p.

[Webchem]

Breasting up is a fantastic and easy way to travel.

 

If both boats have engines, its possible to steer without using the tiller, and even more alarmingly (though very entertaining), full reverse on one, and full forward on the other makes them both go sideways.

 

Word of warning, don't try to go through any bridges, wide beams are a slightly different design and they fit, though you won't - or at least 2 hire boats didn't, resulting in an entertaining collision!

[alan_fincher]

I'm waiting for a call to make a date to see them, will let you know what they are like...anyone else think they might be a tad overpriced...or am i just being mean!!!

Regards,

Ally p.

If all you have seen so far is the information on the web-site and those curiously heightened photos, I think it's impossible to gain much of an impression about this pair of boats, until you see them in the flesh.

 

That would also be true for price. All sorts of factors can apply, but owner fit-outs can be anythhing from top-notch to downright appaling, and it's not the kind of thing you can judge without seeing.

 

Some considerations though....

 

1) These are SO unusual, that comparison to anything else will be damn nigh impossible. Whilst paired boats are common, having both as short as 34 feet is extremely rare.

 

2) They would doubtless be very hard to sell on, if you need to in the future. They are SO specialist that there will be very few people in the marketplace for anything remotely like this. I'd have thought this should be reflected in the price you pay now.

 

3) 2 * 34 boats will not give you anything like the potential accomodation of 1 * 68 foot boat, as you have to subtract the "pointy ends" and "outside bits", (these are technical terms!), from both.

 

4) Costs could be "interesting".

 

4a) I think the 50% discount on BW licence that you get for a butty only applies if it exceeds 50 foot length. I suspect you MAY have to pay the full licence for 2 * 34 foot boats, which will undoubtedly be a lot more than for a single boat offering similar accomodation, (and even a lot more than a 68 foot boat).

 

4b) I don't know about moorings, and situation may differ between BW ones and some private. Some places you would not be allowed to moor 2 * 34 foot side by side at 34 foot charges, (e.g. in many marina's with "end on" pontoon moorings, geared up to a 7 foot boat). At the canalside, I'm not sure, as you are not in fact taking more space than a 34 foot * 14 foot widebeam.

 

4c) You would probably need to insure 2 craft separately, albeit that a discount may be offered for at least one.

 

4d) Maintenance will cost more than a single boat of double the length, I think. Whilst SOME, (but not all), docks may be able to put one in behind the other, anywhere that pulls them up a slipway or cranes them will incur more cost. I've also noted that where places advertise blacking, there's often a surcharge for a shorter boat, (though you might be able to do a deal for both at once).

 

Do NOT underestimate the work of navigating 2 boats instead of 1. Whilst breasted up is possible on parts of many broad canals, and would be the obvious way of doing flights and other closely spaced locks, I don't think it would be realistic in lots of other places. Even if you are happy through each bridge hole, (no worse than a narrow boat in a narrow bridge, in some ways), you'll find many places where overall canal widths and other obstructions will make life difficult.

 

It's not exactly the same argument, I'll admit, but when the Birmingham main line of the Grand Union was upgraded to double locks in the 1930s, it quickly became apparent that boats 14 foot wide could still not be accomodated as a regular thing, which is why, to the end, even these routes used pairs of narrowboats that could drop back to "single file".

 

Sorry, that all sounds very negative, particularly as you are obviously seeking something outside of the mainstream!.

 

If these are the boats for you, then go for it anyway, but DO research at least the costs before committing.

 

Alan

[alan_fincher]

I have always thought it would not be difficult to have an improved tow hitch arrangement and a simple remote steering arrangement for the butty enabling one person to steer both boats.

What is possible, (and I didnn't believe it until I saw it), is to to navigate a pair of 70 foot working boats, with the butty close couple on "cross straps", where all the steering is done from the BUTTY. The guy on the motor varies engine speed as appropriate, but the guy at the back (working VERY hard sometimes), effectively pushes the motor where it needs to go, by arranging that its back end goes the other way.

 

My brother's used to have a pair of boats, and it scared the living daylights out of me when they did this, albeit they were careful where they tried it, and I never saw them clout anything.

 

Word of warning, don't try to go through any bridges, wide beams are a slightly different design and they fit, though you won't - or at least 2 hire boats didn't, resulting in an entertaining collision!

This depends on the canal, of course. I'm familiar with the Grand Union, where boats working breasted for miles through many bridges was commonplace. This practice still exists, as our local pair of coal boats are worked completely single handed by their owner, and he alternates between being breasted up, of having the butty on "straps" behind, with it's 'elum tied across to the centre of the hatch by a couple of cords.

 

That was my understanding too

I'm hoping so, seemed like a good way of getting more cabin space when I'm limited to 60ft, although it may just be more deck length when I see themAlly p.

Yes, see the post I've just made, but my guess is you will probably find no more useable cabin space in this pair, than on one well thought out 60 foot, (or thereabouts) boat.

[allybsc]

The pictures are truly awful, I put them into photoshop and did a little messing about!!!

 

1) These are SO unusual, that comparison to anything else will be damn nigh impossible. Whilst paired boats are common, having both as short as 34 feet is extremely rare.

 

I like the unusual!!

 

2) They would doubtless be very hard to sell on, if you need to in the future. They are SO specialist that there will be very few people in the marketplace for anything remotely like this. I'd have thought this should be reflected in the price you pay now.

 

They have been on the market for quite a while, so that is probably very true, but if i do buy them I intend to make them so stupendous that people will want them if i decide to sell at a later date.

 

3) 2 * 34 boats will not give you anything like the potential accomodation of 1 * 68 foot boat, as you have to subtract the "pointy ends" and "outside bits", (these are technical terms!), from both.

 

I've thought of that

 

4) Costs could be "interesting".

 

4a) I think the 50% discount on BW licence that you get for a butty only applies if it exceeds 50 foot length. I suspect you MAY have to pay the full licence for 2 * 34 foot boats, which will undoubtedly be a lot more than for a single boat offering similar accomodation, (and even a lot more than a 68 foot boat).

 

I hadn't thought of that!

 

4b) I don't know about moorings, and situation may differ between BW ones and some private. Some places you would not be allowed to moor 2 * 34 foot side by side at 34 foot charges, (e.g. in many marina's with "end on" pontoon moorings, geared up to a 7 foot boat). At the canalside, I'm not sure, as you are not in fact taking more space than a 34 foot * 14 foot widebeam.

 

I'm going to ask my nice mooring lady if i could moor them abreast, if that is allowed

 

4c) You would probably need to insure 2 craft separately, albeit that a discount may be offered for at least one.

I've had a quote for insurance, doesn't seem that expensive.

 

4d) Maintenance will cost more than a single boat of double the length, I think. Whilst SOME, (but not all), docks may be able to put one in behind the other, anywhere that pulls them up a slipway or cranes them will incur more cost. I've also noted that where places advertise blacking, there's often a surcharge for a shorter boat, (though you might be able to do a deal for both at once).

 

OOH! hadn't though of that, i'll ask the chap i've in mind for blacking etc.

 

Do NOT underestimate the work of navigating 2 boats instead of 1. Whilst breasted up is possible on parts of many broad canals, and would be the obvious way of doing flights and other closely spaced locks, I don't think it would be realistic in lots of other places. Even if you are happy through each bridge hole, (no worse than a narrow boat in a narrow bridge, in some ways), you'll find many places where overall canal widths and other obstructions will make life difficult.

 

That is what I needed to know, I'm not put off by hard work and we would have to plan well, initially due to work commitments we wouldn't be going very far, but we are hoping to do a few longer cruises eventually.

 

It's not exactly the same argument, I'll admit, but when the Birmingham main line of the Grand Union was upgraded to double locks in the 1930s, it quickly became apparent that boats 14 foot wide could still not be accomodated as a regular thing, which is why, to the end, even these routes used pairs of narrowboats that could drop back to "single file".

 

The butty is unpowered (I think) sounds like a lot of hauling on ropes, pity I couldn't bring my horse!!!!

 

Sorry, that all sounds very negative, particularly as you are obviously seeking something outside of the mainstream!.

 

I don't want to be lumbered with a load of grief which is why I started the topic, if it's not a goer, i'd rather know now and save myself more wasted time.

 

If these are the boats for you, then go for it anyway, but DO research at least the costs before committing.

 

I'll be on the phone in the morning asking lots of questions to the relevant parties. Thank you for your reply.

Regards,

Ally p.

[steve]

Hi whilst moored up one night next to these boats i met the owner and did go aboard the butty and it is fitted out to a reasonable spec very clean and tidy too, the tug has a vintage engine in and a couple of bunks,the tug pushes the butty along as they have some sort of hitch from one to the other and like others have said are very unusal, the owner also made them, they could probably do with a repaint hopes this helps you.

[allybsc]

Hi whilst moored up one night next to these boats i met the owner and did go aboard the butty and it is fitted out to a reasonable spec very clean and tidy too, the tug has a vintage engine in and a couple of bunks,the tug pushes the butty along as they have some sort of hitch from one to the other and like others have said are very unusal, the owner also made them, they could probably do with a repaint hopes this helps you.

 

Thanks Steve,

I've been having a good think, worn out with the effort!!!!! I'm a bit put off by the extra expense. I'm going to have another good look around for an alternative, so if anyone knows of a portholed tug/trad under 60ft that needs a bit of doing up (partner is an engineer) and TLC ,that's under £35,000 please let me know, I check all of the online brokers daily but I am at a bit of a disadvantage living so far away from the canals, I've missed out on a few not being able to jump in the car without delay. I've spent the last 16 months dreaming, reading and researching, I'd like to get on board soon or I'm going to burst!

Thanks to everyone for the input.

Regards,

Ally p.

[gaggle]

i have seen the chimney smoking on this pair of boats for the first time in a year and in the last couple of weeks painted "rose and castle" stuff has appeared on the roofs.

i thought someone must have bought them and decided to give them a bit of attention but it now seems they are being given the make over to try and get a sale.

seen them for sale for a while now 12 moons maybe,if they have had no offers in all that time they might listen to offers.never seen them move -not once.

they are joined together in a very strange way.

[allybsc]

i have seen the chimney smoking on this pair of boats for the first time in a year and in the last couple of weeks painted "rose and castle" stuff has appeared on the roofs.

i thought someone must have bought them and decided to give them a bit of attention but it now seems they are being given the make over to try and get a sale.

seen them for sale for a while now 12 moons maybe,if they have had no offers in all that time they might listen to offers.never seen them move -not once.

they are joined together in a very strange way.

 

Well I think that def puts the coffin nail in my particular idea, if they don't move them it must be because it's a pain in the derriere, don't fancy buying a boat that has been static for a year, even if I could get it cheap!

I'll be in the Manchester area next weekend, can anyone recommend a decent broker or two to visit when I'm down there?

Regards,

Ally P.

[Liam]

Allybsc,

 

Heard you were in Manchester soon, so I took a look at Harrall Brokerage's website to check to see the latest boats on there, and came across this listing... a boat which has both a bit of history and is a bit unusual aswell...

 

Not the length you were looking for I know, but a bit cheaper and worth a look.

[allybsc]

Allybsc,

 

Heard you were in Manchester soon, so I took a look at Harrall Brokerage's website to check to see the latest boats on there, and came across this listing... a boat which has both a bit of history and is a bit unusual aswell...

 

Not the length you were looking for I know, but a bit cheaper and worth a look.

 

I'm all excited....what's it's name?????

[Liam]

Oops, forgot to add the link...

 

http://www.harralbrokerage.co.uk/detail.asp?id=1191

[allybsc]

Oops, forgot to add the link...

 

http://www.harralbrokerage.co.uk/detail.asp?id=1191

 

It's the lovliest little thing, but with all the best will in the world, I don't think we could fit all five of us (plus the dog) on it...now if i could just sell the kids...any takers???

Thanks Liam,

Regards,

Ally p.

[Liam]

I find it amusing that you'd sell your kids, but keep the dog!

[allybsc]

I find it amusing that you'd sell your kids, but keep the dog!

 

Guffaw! the dog isn't especially well behaved, but he put's the kids to shame

[Hairy-Neil]

Guffaw! the dog isn't especially well behaved, but he put's the kids to shame

 

And I bet he's always loyal and pleased to see you every time you return too.