Wide Boats (Narrowboat style) of the South East

[Laurence Hogg]

As far as I know there are no "wide narrowboats" from any of the commercial fleets left floating and or in use in any way. Apart from the recently discovered wrecks no boat survives or is accesible to survey. These craft are an important historical boat type that is currently lost. The recent "Narrowboat" article did not really delve into these numerous craft deeply. These are boats that not only traded up the Grand Junction and on the Thames but could have crossed England to Gloucester and Bristol. The attached picture shows an un named converted one in Little Venice around 1974. I am trying to establish the layout of the cabins. The back cabin seems to follow narrowboat convention on the port side but recent photographic evidence seen, supports the theory that the starboard side is different, maybe having a double longtitudanal box bed arrangement with curtains. The images below show the example in London and a enhanced image showing a curtain & shelf on the starboard side of Tooveys wide boat "Golden Spray". It is shown in negative because the mark clearly seen on the photo in positive looks like a picture.

 

 

 

I believe in 1981 I saw the wide boat Tam and Di posted about in Northern France, does anyone know if that has survived? I was told in the mid 1990's that it was in Belgium, can anyone verify this?

[Steve King]

Laurence, that is the 'Alberta' owned at the time by the Bijl family who lived afloat on a variety of boats for many years (Hasty, ex-FMC Rambler amongst them). I did go on the boat once or twice but I can't recall the rear cabin layout, or if it was still fitted as per the original style. The floor in the saloon had a slight camber where the water pressure pushed up the centre more than the edges. One day a duck pecked its way through the side planking. Eventually the boat was taken away and replaced by a more modern 'flat afloat' called 'Mallards'.

 

I think there is a photo of 'Alberta' carrying esparto grass in one of those GUCCo promotional books from the 1930s (although it won't show the interior) and Waterways World published some photos taken by Cyril Arapoff of 'Golden Spray' at Brentford in a very early issue.

 

Hth.

 

 

Steve

[Laurence Hogg]

Laurence, that is the 'Alberta' owned at the time by the Bijl family who lived afloat on a variety of boats for many years (Hasty, ex-FMC Rambler amongst them). I did go on the boat once or twice but I can't recall the rear cabin layout, or if it was still fitted as per the original style. The floor in the saloon had a slight camber where the water pressure pushed up the centre more than the edges. One day a duck pecked its way through the side planking. Eventually the boat was taken away and replaced by a more modern 'flat afloat' called 'Mallards'.

 

I think there is a photo of 'Alberta' carrying esparto grass in one of those GUCCo promotional books from the 1930s (although it won't show the interior) and Waterways World published some photos taken by Cyril Arapoff of 'Golden Spray' at Brentford in a very early issue.

 

Hth.

 

 

Steve

 

Most interesting. There is in existence a picture of Alberta in Vokins livery, curiously moored in a similar or the same place as I took the photo. Do you know if it was a Vokins boat?

[Steve King]

Most interesting. There is in existence a picture of Alberta in Vokins livery, curiously moored in a similar or the same place as I took the photo. Do you know if it was a Vokins boat?

I'm afraid not Laurence, but I have scanned for you the photo from 'Grand Union Canal (including Regent's Canal Dock) and Associated Companies' from the 1930s.

 

 

I remembered the boat in the photo as 'Alberta' but there it is as 'Albert' so there's a further question, is it the same boat or a sibling vessel?

 

The details of wide boat useage on the lower Grand Union and Regent's Canals seem largely to have escaped the attention of historians and photographers alike, which is a shame because they must have been very common at certain times. Perhaps it was because the towing path in central London was locked and unavailable to the general public until the 1970s.

 

Further photos of wide boats can be found in 'London's Waterways' by Martyn Denney and also 'Historic Waterways Scenes; London & South-East England' by the same author. It's interesting to note that the wide beam boats seem to follow narrowboat practice with chimneys, decorated water cans, and mops all in evidence.

 

 

Steve

[Laurence Hogg]

After a discussion with Pete Harrison it is concluded that Albert eventually became Alberta after being owned by Vokins. There were two other Alberta named craft, both wide, one was a Thos Clayton Paddington boat and its fate is known, the other a early craft, fate unknown. All three have seperate GJ gauging numbers.

 

Now back to the original question, what was the cabin interior layout like??

Edited February 26, 2010 by Laurence Hogg

[Derek R.]

Is there anyone left alive who will know? If there is, then it will need some concerted research to find them, and their memories may be dull or gone! Some of the ex-wartime trainees without reacquaintance with a cabin, will describe things somewhat differently from pure memory, than what they actually were.

 

Which leaves conjecture:

It has been assumed by some that the layout is identical to that of a narrow boat, Clearly the stove is in the same place, and with boat builders constructing what is in effect just another back cabin, the common layout would naturally be followed - just wider. The opportunity therein, is to make perhaps not just a wider side bed, but perhaps a fold down childs bunk above, and/or a set of cupboards at one end or the other of the cross bed. Apart from that, and given some of the extra width would be taken with a wider range shelf and table cupboard, I would think there was little other than what exists in a narrow boat - but more room.

 

The alternative thought might be that a different layout be used - but from where does it draw its origins? The builders we know already built wide beam tugs of eight feet with living cabins aft and fore, and there seems to be little doubt that the traditional layout would have been used - because it works. With the stove established where it is in the wide boats, and the chimney positioned for clearance through bridgeholes and overheads, there is immediately one element that sets a rule for what follows, and what follows is yet again restricted by both the demands of two main beds, and a central gangway. Around these parameters, what else would there be left, but to copy and simply enlarge upon the established working layout with an additional bit of storage space. And what of the boat people? Would they have accepted something radically different from the familiar? I fancy that if such had been the case, there would have been spoken memory of it handed down more readily than if the layout had been tha same as any narrow boat.

 

In familiarity there comes contempt, but also forgetfullness. That which we are familiar with and seems ever enduring, can often be erased from the memory after the demolition men have cleared the site, and the last Tram is burnt. But an eyesore, a large carbuncle of a building often sticks in the memory for its' difference - its 'out of the ordinary', and the fact that such buildings and artefacts - ugly and beautiful - are painted and photographed for their 'uniqueness' are we still today 'familiar' with such as the Crystal Palace, Euston Arch, the Foxton Inclined Plane - and the wierd box alongside Mile End lock (even if it was not there today). The factory that stood for the last fifty years beside Ashley Road in St Albans is now leveled, and because it was just another pile of gable ended windowless bricks - I cannot now remember what it looked like in any detail at all.

 

I favour the idea of a second child bunk above the side bed - or perhaps a cupboard of sorts, and a shelf at the head of the cross bed with storage beneath, but still no answer to Laurence's question!

 

Derek Reynolds.

Edited February 27, 2010 by Derek R.

[Paul H]

As a child I remember having the opportunity to peep into Progress's back cabin which was still partially at least complete. I think I remember the table cupboard being on the engine room bulkhead but I could well be wrong confused by the different proportions and the passage of time.

 

But Tam and Di would know - they used to own it!

 

Progress is not of course the kind of boat specifically referred to in this thread but it was built by Bushell Brothers who also built many of the unpowered wide boats.

 

The space available in a wide boat however would not be as big as you would first think though. The boats were IIRC about 10ft 6ins wide but were barrel sideed with a bottom not much wider than 7ft. Therefore the width available at side bed height might only be about 8ft which gives little opportunity for variation from the standard back cabin - just more generous proportions.

 

Paul