topsides paint

[boatboss]

Hi

Does anyone know the proper colour name for the British Waterways blue used on their workboats and also the yellow

Pete

[Steve King]

Does anyone know the proper colour name for the British Waterways blue used on their workboats and also the yellow

Pete

I'm guessing that you mean the colours used on their working narrowboats from shortly after nationalisation in 1948 until the end of trading in 1963, as I don't recall the workboats (ie the maintenace fleet) painted in the blue and yellow livery?

 

Assuming this to be the case, I used Tekaloid Dominion Blue and Middle Chrome (yellow) on Southern Cross back in the early 1980s and it looked about right.

 

 

Steve

[Derek R.]

There wasn't one shade of blue used throughout. Some declare a darker blue, more like Oxford Blue was used, and later a lighter one, though sun fading will contribute to shade changes.

 

When I enquired after the correct shades for Waterways post Nationalisation, A Mr Jamieson from Gloucester archives gave me Azure Blue BS 104 in the BS 381C range, and Golden Yellow BS 356, which as far as I know is the same as Middle Chrome. Certainly my signwriter used Middle Chrome for the yellow lettering, and I can't tell the difference from the Golden yellow round the counter. I gave the BS numbers to Tekaloid, and that's what's on Tycho. I'm sure Sickle is likewise.

 

Derek

 

Edit: One other point, maintenance boats didn't get treated the same as carrying boats when the brush was wielded - Blue was predominant - everywhere! The lettering would be yellow during that period, but sometimes without shading.

Edited July 18, 2009 by Derek R.

[Paul H]

There wasn't one shade of blue used throughout. Some declare a darker blue, more like Oxford Blue was used, and later a lighter one, though sun fading will contribute to shade changes.

 

When I enquired after the correct shades for Waterways post Nationalisation, A Mr Jamieson from Gloucester archives gave me Azure Blue BS 104 in the BS 381C range, and Golden Yellow BS 356, which as far as I know is the same as Middle Chrome. Certainly my signwriter used Middle Chrome for the yellow lettering, and I can't tell the difference from the Golden yellow round the counter. I gave the BS numbers to Tekaloid, and that's what's on Tycho. I'm sure Sickle is likewise.

 

Derek

 

Edit: One other point, maintenance boats didn't get treated the same as carrying boats when the brush was wielded - Blue was predominant - everywhere! The lettering would be yellow during that period, but sometimes without shading.

Derek and Steve are right. Azure Blue and Golden Yellow were not generally used on British Waterways work boats (ie maintenance boats) unless they were inherited from the carrying (working boat fleet) and had not been repainted. Generally it was an all over blue and there is pictorial and eyewitness evidence to suggest that many - at least those painted at Bradley - were in a darker blue with British Waterways Board painted in yellow without shading - as pictured by Mr Fincher on Matt's site here.

 

However if you intend to keep the 1970s cabin on Python the most appropriate and historically correct livery would be French blue with white trim and the old BW "wavey" logo. Radiant is painted in approximately this colour.

 

Glad it's not going to be in FMC colours though!

[David Schweizer]

I'm guessing that you mean the colours used on their working narrowboats from shortly after nationalisation in 1948 until the end of trading in 1963, as I don't recall the workboats (ie the maintenace fleet) painted in the blue and yellow livery?

 

Assuming this to be the case, I used Tekaloid Dominion Blue and Middle Chrome (yellow) on Southern Cross back in the early 1980s and it looked about right.

 

 

Steve

 

Whilst most carrying by BW ceased in 1963 they did mantain a small number of trading craft after this date, two pairs (later only one pair) continued carrying cement from Rugby untill 1969, and three pairs carried lime juce concentrate from Brentford to Boxmoor until 1973. Whilst I cannot comment on the livery carried by the Rugby boats, my memory suggests that the lime juice boats did carry a blue and yellow livery, albeit somewhat faded towards the end.

 

If we wait long enough I am certain that Alan Fincher will be able to produce a photo or two from his vast collection.

[alan_fincher]

If we wait long enough I am certain that Alan Fincher will be able to produce a photo or two from his vast collection.

I can't, unfortunately.

 

But published pictures of at least the BW boats Stamford and Bude on the "Lime Juice" in 1969 show them as very smartly turned out, but in a plain blue, with no yellow lining. They are however fully signwritten with "British Waterways", the logo, and the name.

 

The final carrying pair(s) not mentioned by David, that lasted longer than the Rugby traffic, were those delivering concrete piles from the depot at the top of the Aylesbury Arm.

 

I only knew Aynho & Ayr under the captaincy of Billy Brown. David has, I'm sure, previously alluded to these being some of the scruffiest carrying boats, and he is not wrong. They were certainly not lined in yellow, and I've a feeling that they carried no signwriting beyond a boat name. (I could be wrong, though).

[David Schweizer]

I can't, unfortunately.

 

But published pictures of at least the BW boats Stamford and Bude on the "Lime Juice" in 1969 show them as very smartly turned out, but in a plain blue, with no yellow lining. They are however fully signwritten with "British Waterways", the logo, and the name.

 

The final carrying pair(s) not mentioned by David, that lasted longer than the Rugby traffic, were those delivering concrete piles from the depot at the top of the Aylesbury Arm.

 

I only knew Aynho & Ayr under the captaincy of Billy Brown. David has, I'm sure, previously alluded to these being some of the scruffiest carrying boats, and he is not wrong. They were certainly not lined in yellow, and I've a feeling that they carried no signwriting beyond a boat name. (I could be wrong, though).

Billy Brown and Dolly Dakin did indeed run Aynho and Ayr well into the 1970's, but they were officially classified as maintenance boats, and as far as I can recall, did not carry any cargos in the later years. The livery was dark blue wlth BRITISH WATERWAYS BOARD painted in un-shaded plain white lettering, which got increasingly scruffier as the years passed.

edited to add:- Does anyone know the Billy Brown/Dolly Dakin story? I met John Dakin, one of Dolly's thirteen children, a few years ago, but did not want to ask. Ken Dakin worked for Willow Wren but I do not know what happened to him, or why Dolly took up with Billy Brown.

Edited July 19, 2009 by David Schweizer

[alan_fincher]

 

I believe it has been established in previous threads that Ken Dakin went on to work on the BW Zoo Waterbuses after his Willow Wren days, (a rather different image to the publicity pictures of steerers in white coats and "naval" caps !).

 

I believe it was also reported that he is deceased, (but I can't vouch for that).

 

I can't offer anything on the Brown/Dakin tale, other than, (obviously), there was at least one other father involved in producing Dolly's complete collection of sons and daughters!

 

As a further aside, the previous steerers of Aynho and Ayr, whilst on piling delivery runs were Sam and Gladys Horne, who still live in the lock-keepers cottage at Ravens Lane Lock, Berkhamsted. Their fascinating story, (Sam's baptism into boating was working a pair unofficially!), is told in Euan Corrie's book "Tales from the Old Inland Waterways". It's worth a read if you see a remaindered or second-hand copy.

 

[David Schweizer]

 

I believe it has been established in previous threads that Ken Dakin went on to work on the BW Zoo Waterbuses after his Willow Wren days, (a rather different image to the publicity pictures of steerers in white coats and "naval" caps !).

 

I believe it was also reported that he is deceased, (but I can't vouch for that).

 

I can't offer anything on the Brown/Dakin tale, other than, (obviously), there was at least one other father involved in producing Dolly's complete collection of sons and daughters!

 

As a further aside, the previous steerers of Aynho and Ayr, whilst on piling delivery runs were Sam and Gladys Horne, who still live in the lock-keepers cottage at Ravens Lane Lock, Berkhamsted. Their fascinating story, (Sam's baptism into boating was working a pair unofficially!), is told in Euan Corrie's book "Tales from the Old Inland Waterways". It's worth a read if you see a remaindered or second-hand copy.

 

I do not remember Ken Dakin working on the Zoo buses, and agree that it does seem a little bizzaire, he certainly ran a close second to Billy Brown for the award of scruffiest pair of boats when he worked Baildon and Sudburty for Willow Wren.

 

As for Dolly's offspring, I assume you are referring to the one which she always claimed was the consequence of "drinking too much coffee" (her words)

[boatboss]

thanks for all the answers to what colour BW livery We are thinking of using Lauderdale blue and Yellow from International could you tell me the recommended height of the lettering at the moment its 3" with the first letter of each word 5" and the name Python all letters 5"

Boatboss

[Steve King]

I do not remember Ken Dakin working on the Zoo buses

 

Ken Dakin most certainly did work on the BWB Zoo Water Bus service - I worked there with him.

 

I seem to recall being told that before my time in London (ie pre 1976) there had been a converted butty at Paddington, one end of which was lived in by Tommy Osborne and family, the other end by the Dakins.

 

He had the grp 'Water Mongoose' when I worked on Jenny Wren for my first season in 1976 (WM's last season). Ken steered 'Water Nymph' (ex-Southern Cross) in 1977 (its last season also). With the arrival of the newly converted Perseus, and later Gardenia, in 1978 he steered Gardenia and then 'Water Buffalo' when the latter returned from an overhaul. It may be that Ken steered Water Buffalo until the end of the service in BWB ownership at the end of the 1983 season, but I'd need time to think about that situation to be sure.

 

Ken and Dolly(?) lived in the gatehouse at 16 South Wharf Road, Paddington, for much of this period. His son Kenny could be found on Beauchamp Lodge's 'Erica' for some of this time. Son John was on BWB maintenance in West London.

 

Ken Dakin eventually went to work on the maintenance and later lived in a cottage beside one of the locks of the Hanwell flight. He suffered a stroke and was housebound as I recall. I don't know if he is still alive.

 

 

Steve

[Derek R.]

Ken Dakin most certainly did work on the BWB Zoo Water Bus service - I worked there with him.

 

I seem to recall being told that before my time in London (ie pre 1976) there had been a converted butty at Paddington, one end of which was lived in by Tommy Osborne and family, the other end by the Dakins.

 

He had the grp 'Water Mongoose' when I worked on Jenny Wren for my first season in 1976 (WM's last season). Ken steered 'Water Nymph' (ex-Southern Cross) in 1977 (its last season also). With the arrival of the newly converted Perseus, and later Gardenia, in 1978 he steered Gardenia and then 'Water Buffalo' when the latter returned from an overhaul. It may be that Ken steered Water Buffalo until the end of the service in BWB ownership at the end of the 1983 season, but I'd need time to think about that situation to be sure.

 

Ken and Dolly(?) lived in the gatehouse at 16 South Wharf Road, Paddington, for much of this period. His son Kenny could be found on Beauchamp Lodge's 'Erica' for some of this time. Son John was on BWB maintenance in West London.

 

Ken Dakin eventually went to work on the maintenance and later lived in a cottage beside one of the locks of the Hanwell flight. He suffered a stroke and was housebound as I recall. I don't know if he is still alive.

 

Steve

 

Small world. From 1963 through '66 I was a Keeper at London Zoo working in the Cotton Terraces - they being the new buildings along the canal side housing Camels, Antelope, Giraffe, Deer and other stuff, then a little later '69 - '70 in the Insect House. Many's the time I watched the Zoo Water buses tearing up and down. I can remember Water Nymph and Buffalo (I think!), and the occasional white hat. Some time before I got the canal bug, pity. Jason would also go by, though we were kept pretty busy so didn't see much of that one. The canal through the Park was an almost secret place back then with trees forming a tunnel, long before the towpath became a bicycle 'motorway'.

 

I'll stand to be corrected on this, but fleet numbers 4", boat name 4", other letters 4.1/2" & 5.1/2" - I'll bet there are variations on that too! I've seen 'R's and 'E's with variations, though only one style 'looks' right.

 

Hadley's name has been made the same size as the others here as comparison (or maybe only a quarter inch in it?).

 

 

Derek

Edited July 20, 2009 by Derek R.