Northwich Handrails

[Chris Pink]

The cabin handrail on a Northwich cabin is 40 x 6mm flat bar with flush rivets in the top, shouldered as standoffs to the cabin top. I am not sure how they are fixed under the cabin roof but there is no evidence of welding when looked at from the outside.

 

So how were they made? A hot rivet hammered on both ends at once is not really practical as the chances of hitting it at exactly the same time are small and the chances of it jumping out are high. Also the impact would cause the standoff to belly out.

 

We are at the stage of deciding to weld these as we can't come up with a method of neatly hot rivetting them but would prefer if possible to rivet them. We hot rivetted the ones on the removable engine room top with mixed results - ie not neat enough for the main run of back cabin handrail and a couple of the rivets/standoffs we have made have broken because of the uneven heating.

 

Can anyone cast light on this process?

[Hairy-Neil]

Is it really necessary to hot rivet them, won't cold riveting do for at least one of the processes?

[Timleech]

Is it really necessary to hot rivet them, won't cold riveting do for at least one of the processes?

 

Are you sure the standoff isn't a piece of 1/2" pipe, with an ordinary rivet right through the lot?

To the best of my recollection that's how I did it on a new fully rivetted cabin. Also done welded Northwich-style cabin with (again from memory) 1/2" pipe welded top & bottom.

Please make the standoffs a bit taller than original spec. The originals are positively dangerous, as it would be all too easy for someone to jam their fingers underneath if they were to, say, slip off the gunwale.

You really don't notice the difference visually if they're a bit taller

 

Tim

Edited May 31, 2009 by Timleech

[Chris Pink]

Are you sure the standoff isn't a piece of 1/2" pipe, with an ordinary rivet right through the lot?

To the best of my recollection that's how I did it on a new fully rivetted cabin. Also done welded Northwich-style cabin with (again from memory) 1/2" pipe welded top & bottom.

Please make the standoffs a bit taller than original spec. The originals are positively dangerous, as it would be all too easy for someone to jam their fingers underneath if they were to, say, slip off the gunwale.

You really don't notice the difference visually if they're a bit taller

 

Tim

 

The tube method is a pragmatic solution (if we hadn't already made a load of rivets with standoffs that didn't work very well). But I was curious as to how it was done originally - my butty's handrails are almost certainly not tube although it is not possible to be certain without destroying one.

 

The standoff is 30mm so maybe a notice - "people with fat fingers should not use these handrails as safety equipment". Yes, I wish I had made them 5mm bigger but hey ho, next time (!!!).

 

There is a slightly wider question that production methods are not always obvious and the documentation non-existent so, like much of Manchester's brickwork, these things can become one of the lost arts.

[Chertsey]

Please make the standoffs a bit taller than original spec. The originals are positively dangerous, as it would be all too easy for someone to jam their fingers underneath if they were to, say, slip off the gunwale.

You really don't notice the difference visually if they're a bit taller

 

Tim

But then even more keys could slide underneath and fall in!

[BuckbyLocks]

But then even more keys could slide underneath and fall in!

 

 

I am sure there is a moral there somewhere!

 

30 mm is generous when compared to the original spec which are positively dangerous. Hateful things.

[Admiral]

This reply from Graeme at Stockton Dry Dock:

 

"The answer to the question is that the handrail is attached using a tube with a 3/8 internal diameter with the rivit inside. This then keeps the handrail off the roof at the right height. I have a small northwich handrail complete with tube that came off Prince Charles."

Graeme

www.stocktondrydock.com

[pete harrison]

The tube method is a pragmatic solution (if we hadn't already made a load of rivets with standoffs that didn't work very well). But I was curious as to how it was done originally - my butty's handrails are almost certainly not tube although it is not possible to be certain without destroying one.

 

The standoff is 30mm so maybe a notice - "people with fat fingers should not use these handrails as safety equipment". Yes, I wish I had made them 5mm bigger but hey ho, next time (!!!).

 

There is a slightly wider question that production methods are not always obvious and the documentation non-existent so, like much of Manchester's brickwork, these things can become one of the lost arts.

 

Chris,

 

I am sure your butty has a reproduction back cabin (see Waterways World April 1996 page 100) so destroying any part of it would be pointless !

[Timleech]

Just checked the Yarwood drawings, they call for pipe ferrules 3/4" long and 1' 0" apart. They don't seem to specify the diameter. When building Northwich style cabins I've worked from a combination of drawings and measurements of an original cabin. I've used 1/2" (bore) pipe, 1" long. That extra 1/4" space under the handrails makes a huge difference to their safety.

The original design is, frankly, closer to that of a footrail than a handrail.

 

Tim

[Chris Pink]

Chris,

 

I am sure your butty has a reproduction back cabin (see Waterways World April 1996 page 100) so destroying any part of it would be pointless !

 

 

 

I can't! What does it say?

 

I am relieved that my 30mm will make Tim happy. As with many of these things the boat has become its own unique class with a small note to do it differently next time....

 

??? next time ???

 

Still, its coming on nice.

 

Sometimes it is difficult working so far from the main part of the system and the visits we have made for reference have helped enormously but then another question we didn't think about comes up...

 

Thanks all.

[pete harrison]

I can't! What does it say?

 

Waterways World April 1996 page 100 advertises 'K' for sale via Warwickshire Fly Boat Co.. The advert says '70-ft unconverted butty with new rivetted and fully fitted back cabin with Stratford range. ^-ft extension housing bunk, cooker and sink. Hold with mast, stands, planks, e.t.c.'. K.K. bought the boat shortly after this advert appeared and I photographed it coming down Devizes Locks on 12 September 1998. I had previously photographed it on 28 May 1994 at Braunston where it was freshly painted with the same cabin that it still has now. I have subsequently photographed 'K' on 17 March 2002 at Bathampton and 07 January 2009 near Claverton.

[Chris Pink]

Waterways World April 1996 page 100 advertises 'K' for sale via Warwickshire Fly Boat Co.. The advert says '70-ft unconverted butty with new rivetted and fully fitted back cabin with Stratford range. ^-ft extension housing bunk, cooker and sink. Hold with mast, stands, planks, e.t.c.'. K.K. bought the boat shortly after this advert appeared and I photographed it coming down Devizes Locks on 12 September 1998. I had previously photographed it on 28 May 1994 at Braunston where it was freshly painted with the same cabin that it still has now. I have subsequently photographed 'K' on 17 March 2002 at Bathampton and 07 January 2009 near Claverton.

 

 

Not convinced, Pete. There is evidence of signwriting under the rough overpaint (KK? unlikely to be WFBC) on the cabin saying "A. Bundles Albert Dock Liverpool" - note the spelling which is different to Blundell who was a well known carrier in that area. There is said to be a video of her buttying Hyperion in the Manchester Ship Canal a few years before - I haven't seen this but i think it dates from the early 1990s. There is also (I had this and have lost it to my shame) a WW cover with both boats in Stockton as a pair with identical cratch painting.

 

I am not sure of the age of the back cabin steelwork but the pictures I have of her carrying for Willow Wren show very similar, possibly not identical, but certainly the proportions seem to coincide more than a more replica would suggest. The back cabin fitout almost certainly dates from the mid-90s, showing more than a little evidence of 'shop-fitting' techniques though a competent enough job.

[Timleech]

Not convinced, Pete. There is evidence of signwriting under the rough overpaint (KK? unlikely to be WFBC) on the cabin saying "A. Bundles Albert Dock Liverpool" - note the spelling which is different to Blundell who was a well known carrier in that area. There is said to be a video of her buttying Hyperion in the Manchester Ship Canal a few years before - I haven't seen this but i think it dates from the early 1990s. There is also (I had this and have lost it to my shame) a WW cover with both boats in Stockton as a pair with identical cratch painting.

 

I am not sure of the age of the back cabin steelwork but the pictures I have of her carrying for Willow Wren show very similar, possibly not identical, but certainly the proportions seem to coincide more than a more replica would suggest. The back cabin fitout almost certainly dates from the mid-90s, showing more than a little evidence of 'shop-fitting' techniques though a competent enough job.

 

Most original Northwich cabins are 'showing their age' by now, it wasn't the world's most durable design especially with the timber back bulkhead.

Also are those handrails the same 30mm you quote? If so, definitely not original.

The 'A. Bundles' bit rings a bell, I suspect it was a contrived name.

 

Tim

[Hairy-Neil]

There is said to be a video of her buttying Hyperion in the Manchester Ship Canal a few years before - I haven't seen this but i think it dates from the early 1990s.

 

I recall a WW news article on Hyperion and K making a crossing of the Mersey estuary C.1990

 

but certainly the proportions seem to coincide more than a more replica would suggest.

 

Steve Priest's work IS that good.

[pete harrison]

I recall a WW news article on Hyperion and K making a crossing of the Mersey estuary C.1990

 

 

 

Steve Priest's work IS that good.

 

Waterways World July 1992 pages 52 & 53 (crossing of the tidal River Mersey from Liverpool Docks to the Manchester Ship Canal took place on 11 April - HYPERION & KESTREL owned by M. Sampson, Liverpool but lettered 'Bundles & Company')

[Timleech]

Waterways World July 1992 pages 52 & 53 (crossing of the tidal River Mersey from Liverpool Docks to the Manchester Ship Canal took place on 11 April - HYPERION & KESTREL owned by M. Sampson, Liverpool but lettered 'Bundles & Company')

 

Ah, the light dawns

If I'd known before what the mysterious 'K' was all about........

 

Tim