Battery problems - again!

[becks101]

Hello,

 

I seem to be having more than my fair share of problems with the batteries in my narrowboat and would be very grateful for some advice please!

 

We have 1 starter battery, and 3 domestics. The domestics are 220Ah Elecsols.

We also have a Phoenix Multi charger/inverter, set to fixed (not adaptive) mode, with an absorption voltage of 14.9, a float voltage of 13.8 and an absorption time of 4 hours.

We also have a Whisper generator and a Smartgauge.

 

We usually live aboard but have been away for 2 months, during which we turned all the power off. We returned on Thursday and have been trying to charge the batteries. The Elecsol leaflet we have says that the batteries are fully charged at 12.8, 50% charged at 12.4 and totally discharged at 10.8. However, the Smartgauge keeps flashing an 'E 03' error code at us when the generator is on, which I understand means too high voltage. When we switch the generator off and leave it a couple of hours, it says the batteries are at 12.25 and 67% charged, which doesn't make any sense to me.

 

My queries are:

1. Have we set the charging voltage incorrectly? If so, what should the charging voltage be for Elecsols?

2. Why is the Smartgauge saying the batteries are at 67% when the 12.25 reading doesn't agree with that?

3. What are we doing wrong?!!

 

We really need some help before we bu**er up the batteries any more than we probably already have!

Thanks very much,

Becks101

[chris w]

Gibbo's your man for the Smartgauge, but one observation I have.... an absorption time of 4 hours is likely to be far too short if the batteries have been down to 50% discharge. That time should be at least 6 hours minimum. I suspect your batteries are far from fully charged if this has been a regular routine.

 

Chris

Edited May 18, 2009 by chris w

[denboy]

GIBBO

Ps how old are the elecsol`s general census is they are not all they are cracked up to be

[MoominPapa]

Hello,

 

I seem to be having more than my fair share of problems with the batteries in my narrowboat and would be very grateful for some advice please!

 

We have 1 starter battery, and 3 domestics. The domestics are 220Ah Elecsols.

We also have a Phoenix Multi charger/inverter, set to fixed (not adaptive) mode, with an absorption voltage of 14.9, a float voltage of 13.8 and an absorption time of 4 hours.

 

We also have a Whisper generator and a Smartgauge.

 

Do you have an ammeter? What is the charge current? What is the battery voltage when the batteries are on charge?

 

 

We usually live aboard but have been away for 2 months, during which we turned all the power off. We returned on Thursday and have been trying to charge the batteries. The Elecsol leaflet we have says that the batteries are fully charged at 12.8, 50% charged at 12.4 and totally discharged at 10.8. However, the Smartgauge keeps flashing an 'E 03' error code at us when the generator is on, which I understand means too high voltage. When we switch the generator off and leave it a couple of hours, it says the batteries are at 12.25 and 67% charged, which doesn't make any sense to me.

 

My queries are:

1. Have we set the charging voltage incorrectly? If so, what should the charging voltage be for Elecsols?

Elecsol spec absorption voltage as 14.4. Can you alter the voltage on the charger?

2. Why is the Smartgauge saying the batteries are at 67% when the 12.25 reading doesn't agree with that?

Dunno, you'll have to hope Gibbo can answer that one. Do you have an ammeter? What is the charge current? What is the battery voltage when the batteries are on charge?

3. What are we doing wrong?!!

What was the state of charge of the batteries before you left them for two months? I fear that they have sulphated op and are now cream-crackered

We really need some help before we bu**er up the batteries any more than we probably already have!

Thanks very much,

Becks101

 

 

 

GIBBO

Ps how old are the elecsol`s general census is they are not all they are cracked up to be

My domestic bank is exactly the same (3 220Ah Elecsols) They came with the boat, but as far as I can tell are nearly 10 years old, and will still provide 200Ah of discharge without worry.

 

MP.

[becks101]

Elecsol spec absorption voltage as 14.4. Can you alter the voltage on the charger?

 

Dunno, you'll have to hope Gibbo can answer that one. Do you have an ammeter? What is the charge current? What is the battery voltage when the batteries are on charge?

 

What was the state of charge of the batteries before you left them for two months? I fear that they have sulphated op and are now cream-crackered

 

My domestic bank is exactly the same (3 220Ah Elecsols) They came with the boat, but as far as I can tell are nearly 10 years old, and will still provide 200Ah of discharge without worry.

 

MP.

 

Hello, thanks very much for your advice.

 

We'll alter the absorption voltage on the charger to 14.4, and set the absorption time to 6 hours.

 

The battery voltage when on charge is 14.9.

 

They were almost 100% when we left them. We've only had them about six months, so I hope they're not sulphated!

[chris w]

Hello, thanks very much for your advice.

 

We'll alter the absorption voltage on the charger to 14.4, and set the absorption time to 6 hours.

 

The battery voltage when on charge is 14.9.

 

They were almost 100% when we left them. We've only had them about six months, so I hope they're not sulphated!

If you have been running 4 hours absorption, I would guess that they are only 70% charged. Then you run them down and recharge, but you are only again doing 4 hours, so even less charged.

 

If they are meant to be charged at 14.4 and you have been charging at 14.9 and they are sealed batteries, they may have blown a vent to release excess gas to prevent an explosion. This will also cause a loss of capacity as gel will be released too. So they could appear to have a full charge voltage (12.8v) but NOT have the same capacity as previously. I suspect this is what has happened. Look for any evidence of the battery vents having blown.

 

Chris

[denboy]

The battery voltage when on charge is 14.9.

sure ive read that 14.9 is too high

[Gibbo]

Ok...........

 

The quoted battery voltages for Elecsols giving their state of charge are wrong! I know they came from Elecsol, but they really are wrong. I reckon they came from the marketing department who wanted to show that their voltages were higher than anyone else's for any given state of charge.

 

In our tests we found that the quoted Specific Gravity for Elecsols is correct. It does agree with the state of charge. But it doesn't agree with the battery voltage.

 

The true voltage for Elecsols at 50% SoC is slightly higher than normal wet cells but it is nowhere near 12.4 volts. Our tests indicated more like 12.25 which is only marginally higher than a normal wet cell.

 

If a voltage of 12.4 is used (as stated by Elecsol) as the 50% SoC point then their 220Ahr battery actually becomes a 170Ahr battery which I'm sure they wouldn't like.

 

Elecsol recommend a lower charge voltage than you are using and the E 03 error is because that has been exceeded. You can either reduce the charge voltage to the voltage recommended by Elecsol (14.4 volts) or, if you think you know better, you can disable the E 03 error code on SmartGauge and continue to charge at a higher voltage than recommended. But remember that the error code is there as a warning. It isn't for any other purpose. I sometimes wish it wasn't there as we get all the quesitons about it when they should really be aimed at the battery supplier and the charger manufacturer (that's not aimed at you!).

 

Surface charge and discharge will mean that measuring the battery voltage following a charge or discharge will not give a true reading until about 18 hours after everything is switched off.

 

If I was unlucky enough to have Elecsols I would disable the error codes and continue to charge at the elevated voltage which will help reduce sulfation. I know Elecsol say their batteries don't suffer from sulfation but they do. Not as bad as normal wet cells, but they do still suffer from it.

 

And finally, if you would rather believe Elecsol's numbers (and you're completely entitled to do so if you wish) then set SmartGauge to battery type 2 which is a very close fit to the figures quoted by them but not a good fit to the reality of the batteries.

 

Gibbo

[chris w]

Elecsols are wet cells then not sealed? I didn't realise that. So ignore my suggestion about vents blowing.

 

Chris

[MoominPapa]

Elecsols are wet cells then not sealed? I didn't realise that. So ignore my suggestion about vents blowing.

 

Chris

The (old) ones I have are liquid electrolyte and have top-up plugs. I think current production is sealed in the sense of not having top-up capabilities, but I don't know if they're gel, or still liquid electrolyte.

 

MP.

[chris w]

The (old) ones I have are liquid electrolyte and have top-up plugs. I think current production is sealed in the sense of not having top-up capabilities, but I don't know if they're gel, or still liquid electrolyte.

 

MP.

So, if they are sealed though (whether gel or wet) and they have been charged at 14.9v instead of 14.4v then the safety valves may have indeed blown and would explain the apparent loss of capacity.

 

Chris

[MoominPapa]

Ok...........

 

The quoted battery voltages for Elecsols giving their state of charge are wrong! I know they came from Elecsol, but they really are wrong. I reckon they came from the marketing department who wanted to show that their voltages were higher than anyone else's for any given state of charge.

 

In our tests we found that the quoted Specific Gravity for Elecsols is correct. It does agree with the state of charge. But it doesn't agree with the battery voltage.

 

The true voltage for Elecsols at 50% SoC is slightly higher than normal wet cells but it is nowhere near 12.4 volts. Our tests indicated more like 12.25 which is only marginally higher than a normal wet cell.

 

From practical experience, I'd concur. 12.25 for 50% SOC seems about right.

 

Interesting what you say about charge voltages, Gibbo. My alternator charges up to 14.8V (temperature compensated) under the control of an Adverc controller. I also have a temperature-compensated 45A mains charger which is set at 14.4V, but could be flipped to 14.8V. It sounds like it may make sense to do that. This is non-sealed batteries which have the level checked regularly (and do use some water.)

 

MP.

[Gibbo]

They are still wet cells.

 

I have not seen any (inclduing some very recent ones) that are sealed.

 

Gibbo

[chris w]

This UK supplier's photos of the 220AH (and all but the 70AH) Elecsols don't appear to show any battery caps for filling?

 

clicky

 

Chris

[MoominPapa]

They are still wet cells.

 

I have not seen any (inclduing some very recent ones) that are sealed.

 

Gibbo

 

 

Elecsol's website is crap for technical info, but this: Elecsol website says that they are "Maintenance free" and the picture certainly doesn't show top-up plugs in the position they are in on the older, yellow-topped ones I have.

 

It's very possible that the plugs are hiding under those covers, and the covers are the only change to allow "Maintenance free" status.

 

MP.

 

Edited to add: Looks like Chris w beat me to the same point.

Edited May 18, 2009 by MoominPapa

[Gibbo]

This UK supplier's photos of the 220AH (and all but the 70AH) Elecsols don't appear to show any battery caps for filling?

 

clicky

 

Chris

 

I think they're like many Lucas batteries. Flush with a slot that a penny fits into.

 

Gibbo

[becks101]

Ok...........

 

The quoted battery voltages for Elecsols giving their state of charge are wrong! I know they came from Elecsol, but they really are wrong. I reckon they came from the marketing department who wanted to show that their voltages were higher than anyone else's for any given state of charge.

 

In our tests we found that the quoted Specific Gravity for Elecsols is correct. It does agree with the state of charge. But it doesn't agree with the battery voltage.

 

The true voltage for Elecsols at 50% SoC is slightly higher than normal wet cells but it is nowhere near 12.4 volts. Our tests indicated more like 12.25 which is only marginally higher than a normal wet cell.

 

If a voltage of 12.4 is used (as stated by Elecsol) as the 50% SoC point then their 220Ahr battery actually becomes a 170Ahr battery which I'm sure they wouldn't like.

 

Elecsol recommend a lower charge voltage than you are using and the E 03 error is because that has been exceeded. You can either reduce the charge voltage to the voltage recommended by Elecsol (14.4 volts) or, if you think you know better, you can disable the E 03 error code on SmartGauge and continue to charge at a higher voltage than recommended. But remember that the error code is there as a warning. It isn't for any other purpose. I sometimes wish it wasn't there as we get all the quesitons about it when they should really be aimed at the battery supplier and the charger manufacturer (that's not aimed at you!).

 

Surface charge and discharge will mean that measuring the battery voltage following a charge or discharge will not give a true reading until about 18 hours after everything is switched off.

 

If I was unlucky enough to have Elecsols I would disable the error codes and continue to charge at the elevated voltage which will help reduce sulfation. I know Elecsol say their batteries don't suffer from sulfation but they do. Not as bad as normal wet cells, but they do still suffer from it.

 

And finally, if you would rather believe Elecsol's numbers (and you're completely entitled to do so if you wish) then set SmartGauge to battery type 2 which is a very close fit to the figures quoted by them but not a good fit to the reality of the batteries.

 

Gibbo

 

 

Thanks very much for all your help, guys. I will disable the Smartgauge error codes and continue at the higher charging rate. But before doing so, I will have a closer look at our apparently 'maintenance free' batteries to check if I am supposed to be topping them up and whether something has blown.

[MoominPapa]

I think they're like many Lucas batteries. Flush with a slot that a penny fits into.

 

Gibbo

Here's a better photo of the new style: clicky and here a photo of the older ones I have clicky where the plugs are flush, as you say, but visible.

 

MP.

[chris w]

I found this on the Elecsol site under FAQs:

 

"Q.9 - SHOULD I CHECK MY STATE OF CHARGE ON MY BATTERY WITH A HYDROMETER?

A. Elecsol leisure batteries use a much lower sg acid than that of traditional battery brands. This has a result that the sg on the hydrometer will never reach the top of the green marker, but will sit in the middle at 1.25sg. When the hydrometer reaches 1.25sg per cell, the Elecsol battery is fully charged. Lower sg's are used to minimise the growth decay / grid corrosion over a period of time."

 

This of course means they are NOT sealed, and the other stuff re SG.

 

clicky

 

What happened to the absorption cycle??????????????????

 

"Q.5 - HOW DO I RECHARGE AN ELECSOL BATTERY FROM FLAT?

A. First check the electrolyte is just covering the plates (never over fill), if necessary top up using distilled water. Depending on how flat the battery is, charging will take up to 11 hours using a quality 10 amp charger (based on the Elecsol 110 battery). The battery is fully charged when the charging voltage reaches 14.4 volts"

 

Chris

Edited May 18, 2009 by chris w

[Gibbo]

What happened to the absorption cycle??????????????????

 

They're working on C/11 charger size. Absorption wouldn't really be needed - it wouldn't last very loing anyway (back to adaptive chagring doesn't work).

 

Gibbo

[chris w]

I don't get that. I charge at about C/11 approximately. (405AH capacity and a 40A charger = C/10). The absorption cycles given by my charger, when the batteries are down, will be in the range 6-8 hours.

 

Chris

Edited May 18, 2009 by chris w

[Gibbo]

I don't get that. I charge at about C/11 approximately. (405AH capacity and a 40A charger = C/10). The absorption cycles given by my charger, when the batteries are down, will be in the range 6-8 hours.

 

The prosecution rests.

 

You have just amply demonstrated that adaptive charging does not work.

 

Gibbo

[chris w]

I don't follow. When the bulk stage finishes on my charger the battery bank is about 80% charged. It needs the 6-8 hours of absorption.

 

Chris

[tosher]

 

 

The battery voltage when on charge is 14.9.

 

I have 3 x 270a/h Elecsol open wet cell batteries that are 3 years old and still as good as new. The charging voltage has been 14.9 volts since they were new. When I bought my Smartgauge I suffered the same error code as you do, so I followed Gibbo's advice and disabled the alarm. I did check with Elecsol about charging at 14.9 volts and they confirmed it would not harm the batteries in any way. tosher

[Gibbo]

I don't follow. When the bulk stage finishes on my charger the battery bank is about 80% charged. It needs the 6-8 hours of absorption.

 

Chris

 

Haven't we already done this by PM?

 

Your batteries should be in a higher SoC than 80% with C/10 charging. Closer to 90%

 

Gibbo