Gas cooker installation

[alan_fincher]

quotation from Calor Marine Shop advice page:

 

All appliances should be fitted with an isolation valve for servicing and maintenance, to isolate the appliance when do in use.

 

Fixed appliances should be connected by solid pipework to keep flexible connections to a minimum.

 

Gimballed appliances should be connected with flexible hose (may be armoured)

 

Hose should be fixed at supply end with floor tap or securely clipped to prevent movement of any joints or connections. Armoured hoses are not required by British Standards only that the hose is made to BS3212 pt2, however it is a wise precaution to reduce the risk of mechanical damage.

 

Appliances should not put an undue strain on pipework to reduce the risk of mechanical damage and work hardening

 

Pipework should not assist in retaining the appliance to reduce the risk of mechanical damage and work hardening.

 

All appliances should be positively and securely fixed to prevent accidental movement, to reduce the risk of mechanical damage and work hardening to pipework.

 

 

no further comment

Or from the latest edition of the BSS regs.....

 

Other appliances such as your cooker or refrigerator can be connected by hose for ease of installation, cleaning or servicing.

 

No further comment.

[ChrisPy]

my cooker is fixed

[Lee J]

my cooker is fixed

 

Mine isn't, and isn't this a further comment? (I'll use one of these things for the first time ever as I believe it is supposed to diffuse tension on what is undoubtedly quite a curt response.) Why Chris, do you compare your fixed installation to my unfixed one when giving advise? I also find your responses more than a little patronising, I am fully aware of the differences between domestic situations and boats and of the fact that hulls don't tend to have airbricks.

 

I can see sense in the comments suggesting minimising joints in gas pipework, that is fairly obvious. I can't work out which is the best and safest method of connection in my particular circumstance. I feel a hose will be safer than a solid pipe as it will allow me to move the cooker to clean and service. Also there are a lot of unexploded yachts with gimballed cookers that, I assume, also don't have anywhere for the gas to escape to from their danger hoses.

 

The question then becomes one of how I connect the hose to the gas installation. Once again I assume Bayonet manufacturers don't design their couplings based on the "if it leaks a little bit it not really a problem in a domestic situation" model, so is it suitable for a boat or would a couple of hose clips and some straight hose be better?

 

Gary and Alan, thank you for your responses. Gary have you used bayonets on your boats (or on any of your recent IT installations!) in the past?

 

Lee

[ChrisPy]

'fixed' in the terminology of Calor Marine seems to mean 'not gimballed'.

 

frankly I would hope that cookers are fixed wherever it is feasible. boats sometinmes hit things, and anything not fixed down can move around - not good.

 

I suppose if you fit a domestic freestanding cooker in a boat it may not be straightforward, but for purpose made boaty cookers and built-in ovens and hobs it should not be difficult to have access to the connection point.

 

in your original post you said the cooker had a standard 1/2" socket - presumably 1/2" female screwed fitting, not a hose bayonet.

Edited February 12, 2009 by ChrisPy

[Lee J]

'fixed' in the terminology of Calor Marine seems to mean 'not gimballed'.

 

frankly I would hope that cookers are fixed wherever it is feasible. boats sometinmes hit things, and anything not fixed down can move around - not good.

 

I suppose if you fit a domestic freestanding cooker in a boat it may not be straightforward, but for purpose made boaty cookers and built-in ovens and hobs it should not be difficult to have access to the connection point.

 

in your original post you said the cooker had a standard 1/2" socket - presumably 1/2" female screwed fitting, not a hose bayonet.

 

 

Yes you are correct the fixing is a female bsp screw. The cooker will be held back to avoid tipping by a short chain in acccordance with the regs.

 

I think a lot of installations on narrowboats are of domestic origins. Certainly the cooker I am using is on sale at most of the inland chandlers. Indeed I bought mine at one of the larger of these. With that in mind I'm pretty sure they'll be quite a few freestanding cookers on boats.

 

How is it possible to install a built in oven without a hose? On mine at home the hob is connected in solid pipe, but the oven had to be flexible to allow connection before sliding back into it's housing, surely this is the same on a boat.

 

By "boaty" cooker do you mean the stainless steel gimbal mounted types as on yachts, or the sort of standard "Caprice" caravan/motorhome type?

 

Lee

[alan_fincher]

How is it possible to install a built in oven without a hose? On mine at home the hob is connected in solid pipe, but the oven had to be flexible to allow connection before sliding back into it's housing, surely this is the same on a boat.

Our boat kitchen, which I didn't design, has a "tower" unit stacking the gas oven above the gas fridge.

 

As you say, these can really only be installed by putting them on a (short) flexible hose, before final installation, then pushing them into place.

 

The actual connection to the oven is underneath, and the fridge on top, but neither sit very close to any fixed part of the boat, so even if solid pipe were possible, there would be a longer length unsupported than I would wish. In reality, there isn't the access to make both connections with solid pipe, with the appliances both in place.

 

It's a non brainer to me that flexible hoses are used for both.

 

I'll admit I'd struggle to put the same case for the gas hob, (on the other side of the boat), although it has allowed the unit it is mounted in to be shifted for maintenance, without disconnecting any gas.

 

I guess there's no objection to a bayonet on a cooker, but it just seems to me like a joint most people don't need.

 

A thought came to me in all this. Does good old natural gas, as used in homes, present a much lower risk of decay to the hoses it passes through ? There is clearly a lot of focus on condition, and even age, of hoses used on boats, but cookers sit in domestic kitchens on the same bit of hose for 20 years. Nobody checks those very often!

[ChrisPy]

How is it possible to install a built in oven without a hose? On mine at home the hob is connected in solid pipe, but the oven had to be flexible to allow connection before sliding back into it's housing, surely this is the same on a boat.

 

By "boaty" cooker do you mean the stainless steel gimbal mounted types as on yachts, or the sort of standard "Caprice" caravan/motorhome type?

 

Lee

If you can't access the final connection to the cooker or oven without sliding the oven out, how is the BSS inspector going to inspect it? It must be sufficiently visible/accessible to allow proper inspection.

 

I mean the standard products from Plastimo, etc., as found on Calor Marine website for example, that are normally fitted in non-sailing boats. Not gimballed.

[Lee J]

If you can't access the final connection to the cooker or oven without sliding the oven out, how is the BSS inspector going to inspect it? It must be sufficiently visible/accessible to allow proper inspection.

 

I mean the standard products from Plastimo, etc., as found on Calor Marine website for example, that are normally fitted in non-sailing boats. Not gimballed.

 

Do most narrowboats have that type of cooker?

 

Alan, how is you installation inspected without moving it?

 

Lee

[alan_fincher]

Alan, how is you installation inspected without moving it?

It's possible to see both ends of each hose without distutrbing anything, but I wouldn't like to try disconnecting them without moving an appliance.

 

Our BSS inspector reached in, and unclipped the date tag from each flexible hose so he could pull it out, and read it.

 

 

As I said at the time, if unscrupulous I could have bought new hoses, but not bothered to fit them, only to exchange the date tags with the currently fitted hoses.

 

(Obviously only the braided hoses are labelled this way - if it's not braided, then the date is actually stamped on the tubing).

[Ex- Member]

How is it possible to install a built in oven without a hose?

 

It is possible as ours is built in and connected with copper. It just happens that our built in cooker is easily accessible to the rear, so was fitted first then gas pipe connected after. You can also fit copper to the cooker before it's fitted in as long as the copper can be guided through the rear of an installation and appear somewhere accessible to connect a isolation valve, tricky but can be done.

 

 

[Lee J]

OK I accept that there are exeptions but in the majority of applications it would be neigh on impossible. The comment was a little off topic anyway as I don't have a built in oven, I have a slot in cooker. It will need to come out for cleaning and service so a hose it is.

 

Your kitchen looks great btw., very similar to how I hope mine will turn out.

 

 

 

Lee

[Ex- Member]

OK I accept that there are exeptions but in the majority of applications it would be neigh on impossible. The comment was a little off topic anyway as I don't have a built in oven, I have a slot in cooker. It will need to come out for cleaning and service so a hose it is.

 

Your kitchen looks great btw., very similar to how I hope mine will turn out.

 

 

 

Lee

 

Of course it makes sence that a free standing cooker would require a flexi hose. Not just because it easily removable, but would likely move if the boat was shunted, a rigid fix in those circumstances would stress any rigid joint. I originally thought that bayonet fittings weren't accepted, but they make complete sence for your particular application. Not only that they are pretty sturdy and used domestically as the cooker is regularly moved to be cleaned. I've never heard of one failing anyway

[Lee J]

I think I had really already made my mind up before I even posted to be honest. I was really looking for confirmation on compliance. I am more than a little concerned about gas on boats, due to the venting (or lack of) arrangements but really it is the best and most cost effective solution in a lot of cases. Cooking is certainly one of them.

 

I wonder if the people concerned with minimising the number of joints in the installation because of the possibility of leaks have all installed LP Gas alarms? In any installation there is the possibility of a leak, that why we fit the equipment to detect leaks before the cause problems I don't think my hose is anymore likely to leak than the isolation valve or the compression adaptor.

 

To me an LPG alarm, CO and smoke detectors are not optional bits of boat kit but I wonder if sometimes people get hung up on the "well it's what I've got so it must be right" mentality. A bayonet fitting is a case in point. As you have eluded, they are very robust and are designed for purpose so I have no doubt as to their suitability, but have the BSS okayed them. It seems that (and thanks to Alan for highlighting this) yes they have so thats what I'll use.

 

Lee

[Ex- Member]

I think I had really already made my mind up before I even posted to be honest. I was really looking for confirmation on compliance. I am more than a little concerned about gas on boats, due to the venting (or lack of) arrangements but really it is the best and most cost effective solution in a lot of cases. Cooking is certainly one of them.

 

I wonder if the people concerned with minimising the number of joints in the installation because of the possibility of leaks have all installed LP Gas alarms? In any installation there is the possibility of a leak, that why we fit the equipment to detect leaks before the cause problems I don't think my hose is anymore likely to leak than the isolation valve or the compression adaptor.

 

To me an LPG alarm, CO and smoke detectors are not optional bits of boat kit but I wonder if sometimes people get hung up on the "well it's what I've got so it must be right" mentality. A bayonet fitting is a case in point. As you have eluded, they are very robust and are designed for purpose so I have no doubt as to their suitability, but have the BSS okayed them. It seems that (and thanks to Alan for highlighting this) yes they have so thats what I'll use.

 

Lee

 

There does seem to be this fear factor with regard to gas installations on boats, it's never bothered me though, neither does driving my car.

 

Clearly less joints the better, elimination of risk is always good in any application, but as you say fit a gas alarm, problem sloved, for those more fearful, fit 2

 

I wish I had gone for one of those gas water heaters as well, possibly could still do so, something i'll be looking into.

[robkg]

Have as few joints as possible.

 

Mine was fitted with bulkhead connectors that were slid over the pipe (which wasn't cut) and the connector fixed into place, effectively acting as a metal grommet. The pipe clips outside were rivetted in place, with the rivet head at the top, recessed into an recessed hole that was then filled prior to painting. A bit like Ernie Wise's wig, you can't see the join (between rivet and boat).

 

Beside the isolation valve in the gas locker we also have one under gunwale in the bow - simply lean over the side (from the bank) and isolate the supply before it enters the boat). A lot quicker than trying to open a gas locker.

Entirely agree with Ray, just to add one minor point. The bulkhead fitting will probably need to be drilled out to remove the reduced diameter ring in the middle (which is there to act as a stop so both pipe ends would be fully inserted). This is necessary to allow the fitting to be slid over the pipe.

[ChrisPy]

Entirely agree with Ray, just to add one minor point. The bulkhead fitting will probably need to be drilled out to remove the reduced diameter ring in the middle (which is there to act as a stop so both pipe ends would be fully inserted). This is necessary to allow the fitting to be slid over the pipe.

why not use a plastic bulkhead compressible cable gland from B&Q?