coronation colours

[Paul H]

Speaking of shades of blue, and I know Paul H. was musing on the possibilities of there once being a darker blue than Azure in use, might there be some mileage in the thought that the wartime utility colours of G.U.C.C.C. being maroon and dark blue could have been utilised by BW, by simply using stocks of the dark blue and covering the maroon?

 

A recent B & W of Sculptor:

 

Did someone mention my name? Yes BW did start off using the old Grand Union wartime utility colours of maroon and blue and there are some particular good pictures of this in Sonia Rolt's "A Canal People." It has been suggested that they were just using the paint up in the stores in 1947-8 ,post-war rationing being in force, but I suspect it was more about the fact that no decision was taken on a new livery for a year or two and the boats scheduled regular dockings went on as before. Pictures of the boats in this livery are rare and I suspect they were overpainted with the new blue and yellow before even those in the GUCCC livery, in order to present a united "corporate image." Of course as FMC boats were not nationalised until 1949, I don't think any of the joshers would have been painted in GU colours! Which is a shame!

 

So yes kitman, it's a great idea to paint up a boat in these colours (not mine though) and if you are who I think you are and haven't got a copy of the book, I'll show you mine when I'm next up at the yard!

 

As regards Derek's allusion to my suggestion that BW boats in latter years were painted a darker blue than the normal azure this is almost certainly the case in some instances. I am not sure though whether it was ever an official livery, more a case of local yards sourcing their own paint when the azure had ran out and before the "french blue and wavey line" livery came in.

 

Paul H

[Phil Speight]

Hi, I'm a new boy on this forum so I hope i'm doing things right.

 

My partner and I are currently in the process of restoring Stanton (No 173) back to carrying condition. We want to paint her in the two blues GUCCC livery which she would presumably have worn when delivered by Yarwoods in November 1936. We would like to ensure that we get this correct in both lettering and colours. Any advice that you could give on this would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

Peter

The light blue is the tricky one - and I have a formula for it. We got the original colour from beneath a vent on Regulus ( an area that hadn`t seen the light of day since the boatwas built) and had the sample analysed . In todays rather aggressive market I am unwilling to part with the formula or sample colours - but I will gladly supply paint ! When lettering - don`t forget the fleet number must be in red outlined all round in white. It is this feature that makes the whole scheme work nicely.

Phil

[Phil Speight]

The light blue is the tricky one - and I have a formula for it. We got the original colour from beneath a vent on Regulus ( an area that hadn`t seen the light of day since the boatwas built) and had the sample analysed . In todays rather aggressive market I am unwilling to part with the formula or sample colours - but I will gladly supply paint ! When lettering - don`t forget the fleet number must be in red outlined all round in white. It is this feature that makes the whole scheme work nicely.

Phil

Ah - I`ve just explored the thread further..............

I think GUCCO used three or four blues - the original two , light and and medium dark ( so to speak) , the coronation scheme`s blue which COULD have been the same as the first dark blue but MAY have been lighter , and a darker blue again for the utility scheme . Builders plans don`t help because , for instance, in the ones I`ve seen the first two are simply marked as "light blue" and "dark blue" - nothing more specific than that. However , I believe the original light blue was certainly a very specific colour ( very 1930`s trendy ) because it is highly distinctive. Beyond that we can judge that it doesn`t go well with a VERY dark blue and that is why our "Union Blue" is no darker than it is. Someone well qualified was paid well enough to design a cutting edge and progressive sheme for the original GUCCO livery giving a definate message to potential customers -"We are up to date and progressive - no quaintness here "etc. In 1935 it was deliberately bang up to the minute.

Remember too when looking at photographs that a restored boat may not be wonderfully accurate , even the most thorughly researched work relies on interpretation, and in older pictures colours may well have faded quite early in their life. Joshers are a good example. In recent years a whole new colour scheme has become the norm - I`m entirely convinced they were much nearer orange than red and perhaps used a lighter green that is common now. You must also , in most cases , take into account the effect on color of the old copal varnish.

Azure Blue BS104 was always the SPECIFIED BW colour while they were carrying- but that probably didn`t stop them using something else if it was expedient , and I think maybe the lime juice boats were an exception to the rule. Or maybe not. It`s strange how much we don`t know about the most recent part of canal history - perhaps because it was commonplace no-one took much notice.

 

Phil

[Paul H]

The darker all over blue BW livery may well have appeared on the limejuice boats in latter years (it's what I remember anyway) and more certainly on some of the maintenance fleet. At the same time the cabinsides were sometimes also lettered up British Waterways Board (ie with the addition of the word Board) and without any contrasting shadow to the letters.

 

The latest Canal Boat magazine (for those "lucky" enough to have it) has some great working boat pictures including one of abandoned boats in Braunston reservoir. It appears to show Baldock in a darker blue with the British Waterways signage obliterated with an arc of azure blue.

 

However both black and white and colour pictures (as well as memories) can be unreliable as regards colour tone. Colours prints particularly degrade over the years. Also the BW azure seems an amazingly chameleon colour. Take a look at Matts's pictures of the recent Braunston Boat Show. Same camera, same weekend but the azure takes up an amazing range of tones depending on whether it is in sunlight or not.

Sickle Site

 

The other puzzle I have is the correct blue for the GUCCC coronation colours. Recent recreations of the livery seem to have been used a much more vivid and lighter blue than those a few years ago. Are we getting closer to the authentic or further away? Have a look at Battersea and Actis compared with the somewhat darker Fulbourne

 

Paul H

Edited July 19, 2008 by Paul H

[alan_fincher]

The darker all over blue BW livery may well have appeared on the limejuice boats in latter years (it's what I remember anyway) and more certainly on some of the maintenance fleet. At the same time the cabinsides were sometimes also lettered up British Waterways Board (ie with the addition of the word Board) and without any contrasting shadow to the letters.

March 1969 photos of Stamford and Bude on the lime juice run, published in WW in 1986, seem to show a fairly light blue, compared to my memory of some of the boats.

 

These are lettered just "British Waterways", as far as I can see.

 

A poor photograph of Bakewell, after it's acquisition by Union Canal Carriers, (probably August 1974), shows a similar thing, (lightish blue, "British Waterways").

 

I thought I'd seen some colour pics of Arcas and Actis, but can't immediately find them. I've a feeling they may have been darker ?

 

Does anybody know what some of these boats have attached to them, that appear to be white notices, about 6 inches square ? They are far too big to be a commercial licence. Stamford has one on the engine room side, and Bakewell on immediately below the top-plank on the front of the cratch. I've a feeling they may have been some kind of threat to keep off the boats ?

[Paul H]

Does anybody know what some of these boats have attached to them, that appear to be white notices, about 6 inches square ? They are far too big to be a commercial licence. Stamford has one on the engine room side, and Bakewell on immediately below the top-plank on the front of the cratch. I've a feeling they may have been some kind of threat to keep off the boats ?

IIRC it was something about "only authorised presons...." Handy for the crews to be able to point at when a kid in an anorak (yes me) tried to cadge a ride.

 

Paul H

[Phil Speight]

The darker all over blue BW livery may well have appeared on the limejuice boats in latter years (it's what I remember anyway) and more certainly on some of the maintenance fleet. At the same time the cabinsides were sometimes also lettered up British Waterways Board (ie with the addition of the word Board) and without any contrasting shadow to the letters.

 

The latest Canal Boat magazine (for those "lucky" enough to have it) has some great working boat pictures including one of abandoned boats in Braunston reservoir. It appears to show Baldock in a darker blue with the British Waterways signage obliterated with an arc of azure blue.

 

However both black and white and colour pictures (as well as memories) can be unreliable as regards colour tone. Colours prints particularly degrade over the years. Also the BW azure seems an amazingly chameleon colour. Take a look at Matts's pictures of the recent Braunston Boat Show. Same camera, same weekend but the azure takes up an amazing range of tones depending on whether it is in sunlight or not.

Sickle Site

 

The other puzzle I have is the correct blue for the GUCCC coronation colours. Recent recreations of the livery seem to have been used a much more vivid and lighter blue than those a few years ago. Are we getting closer to the authentic or further away? Have a look at Battersea and Actis compared with the somewhat darker Fulbourne

 

Paul H

Nobody ( me very much included ) could say with any authority that they`ve got it right. Personally I think I would go for a "union jack" type mid to dark blue rather than anything darker - but I have no actual evidence to support the choice and neither has anyone else. Do not underestimate the skill with which the original colours were chosen - so look for a good balance . Too dark a blue against a good strong red would not look as good as a lighter ( lightER not LIGHT ) blue would.

Incidentally - I would question the "maroon" referred to as part of the last GUCCO scheme - I think it was a fairly bright red that quickly faded to a softer and plummier shade . Ian Kemp`s original scheme for the restored Sculptor used International Red Undercoat ( which is/was almost pink in some lights ) varnished over( as all boats were in period ) and it looked 100% convincing. I don`t know how much research went into the boat`s current paintwork - and the same applies to a number of the boats out there. We all err on the side of personal preference when the final choices are made - even if we suspect we may be less than entirely accurate. It isn`t so critical with BW boats though. If you paint `em Azure Blue and Golden Yellow - or even if you miss the yellow altogether - no-one can really argue whatever other shades of blue may occasionally have been used.

The words British Waterways were actually , in all but the very earliest days , a single transfer .It was cut in two and then stuck on. This is why latterly the rest of the lettering went unshaded ( see the lime juice boats ) - by the end it was a saving of time , effort and money not to bother .

Phil

Edited July 20, 2008 by Phil Speight

[Derek R.]

Needless to say these have little to do with Coronation colours, but I'll throw them in. Couple of pics when cutting through Tycho's paint. All manner of colours, but an interesting selection of Blues.

 

 

[Phil Speight]

Needless to say these have little to do with Coronation colours, but I'll throw them in. Couple of pics when cutting through Tycho's paint. All manner of colours, but an interesting selection of Blues.

 

 

Brilliant! Do you have any more shots showing the lettering ? It is the transfer I mentioned earlier and the way the black shading is done nowadays is always a guess . Your photo gives a major clue to how it really was ( it needs to be such a close view ).

Cheers

Phil

 

IIRC it was something about "only authorised presons...." Handy for the crews to be able to point at when a kid in an anorak (yes me) tried to cadge a ride.

 

Paul H

Yes it was. A friend`s boat avtually had it on the front bulkhead - may still be there in fact.

Phil

[Steve King]

Needless to say these have little to do with Coronation colours, but I'll throw them in. Couple of pics when cutting through Tycho's paint. All manner of colours, but an interesting selection of Blues.

 

A word of caution if I may. Can you be sure that this paint and lettering was applied by British Waterways (Board)? I took a photo of Tycho at Matty's yard in the late 1970s when it was painted in their yellow. When the boat appeared at Camden Town en route to its new mooring at Battlebridge Basin in the early 1980s I remember that it had been painted (by WFBC ?) in BW blue and lettered accordingly. Is it this paint that we see in these photos? The boat had been purchased by Chris ... (?) and was owned later by Stewart Qureshi and then Paul Money, the latter two owners keeping the boat in Paddington. Paul Money started painting the boat in green but never finished it.

 

I'm just a little concerned that with the cabin being given a refit in the early 1980s that the exterior paint may have been stripped off then and what was applied afterwards is now being granted the status of actual BWB paint? It should be possible to check with the people involved at that time to confirm what was actually done.

 

Hope I'm wrong though as the lettering looks most interesting. As Phil mentions, if it is a transfer then it would be the original BWB application.

 

 

Steve King

[Paul H]

A word of caution if I may. Can you be sure that this paint and lettering was applied by British Waterways (Board)? I took a photo of Tycho at Matty's yard in the late 1970s when it was painted in their yellow. When the boat appeared at Camden Town en route to its new mooring at Battlebridge Basin in the early 1980s I remember that it had been painted (by WFBC ?) in BW blue and lettered accordingly. Is it this paint that we see in these photos? The boat had been purchased by Chris ... (?) and was owned later by Stewart Qureshi and then Paul Money, the latter two owners keeping the boat in Paddington. Paul Money started painting the boat in green but never finished it.

 

I'm just a little concerned that with the cabin being given a refit in the early 1980s that the exterior paint may have been stripped off then and what was applied afterwards is now being granted the status of actual BWB paint? It should be possible to check with the people involved at that time to confirm what was actually done.

 

Hope I'm wrong though as the lettering looks most interesting. As Phil mentions, if it is a transfer then it would be the original BWB application.

 

 

Steve King

 

I thought the same Steve but the 1980s blue and yellow repaint (by I assume, Dave Parrott) shows the lettering being much more bunched up and not especially authentic.

Sickle Site

 

Tycho was sold by Matty's to Paul Painter who swapped it with Simon Wain for the woolwich motor Birmingham. Simon only had it it for a couple of years and it remained in red oxide until he swapped it with David for Cyprus (Erewash motor.)

 

So I think these BW colours we see here are original and there's even traces of GU paint beneath that. It's a shame that any of these boats have to be taken down to bare metal because so much history is then lost.

 

Paul H

[Derek R.]

Steve's words of caution should be heeded. Sorry to disappoint Phil, but the lettering previously shown 'could' be largely later than 1980, and shows 'Britain's instead of British.

Thanks for reminding me of Mr Qureshi Steve, I have a copy of a marine survey done on his behalf dated 1989, though no comment is made on the style or colour of paintwork other than in 'good condition'. There is also an insurance form carrying the name of Nicholls C. J. transferring policy to M. Cottis dated May '88. But I digress -

 

Here is a shot of Tycho during ownership by the Parrotts (Dave's photo). Note the rather fat style of lettering and deep shading. Note also the difference in curve of one side to the other in the next shot - one with an apostrophe, and one without. Different signwriter? Different time? - Calling Mr Parrott!

 

 

Here is the lettering as uncovered in 1999 shortly after I purchased her. The other side of course, but surely a different hand. The curve is more consistent, though rather long and perhaps the letters are still a little on the fat side. (Or is it me?)

 

Where did that pigeon box go??

 

 

 

The black and white of an 'Ice breaker at Hawkesbury 1947' copyright to the Coventry Evening Telegraph (which is reliably thought to be 1961/2), shows 'British Waterways', and space for the lifebelt roundel between the 's' and the engine'ole port.

 

 

 

I have neither uncovered what I believe may be the original transfers (still several coats of paint on there, which I'm loathe to disturb - let history sleep!), nor the black background to the white registration script in Dave's shot. But as can be clearly seen in the close up shot, 'Regd. Birmingham 1601' along with the BW No. was painted in block, black onto blue cabin side - perfectly in order for a maintenance boat methinks. Kept simple and economic.

 

The curiosity is the yellow secondary lettering behind the 'A' in the close up. Earlier 'A', or Matty's yellow? I think it's a letter. It could be as Paul suggests, a little of the original.

Interesting notion that the red showing through could be GU 'Coronation' colours.

 

Paul Money's dark green paintwork was bordered in black, and lined in cream. An L.N.E.R. man perhaps. One side came off in sheets, the other side wouldn't budge! Another layer of 'history' remains!

 

Like Vintage wine - best left in the bottle.

[Steve King]

Thanks for reminding me of Mr Qureshi Steve, I have a copy of a marine survey done on his behalf dated 1989, though no comment is made on the style or colour of paintwork other than in 'good condition'. There is also an insurance form carrying the name of Nicholls C. J. transferring policy to M. Cottis dated May '88. But I digress -

Well, Paul and Derek, some interesting observations on Tycho's paintwork. I guess the clincher would be the location of the Mattys yellow; below the BW blue and the latter would not be original, above the BW blue and it would be original British Waterways blue.

 

With more names being mentioned I can add a little more information. Stewart Qureshi worked as a steerer on the London trip boats, initially for Jason's Trip and later for Canal Cruises (Jenny Wren and Fair Lady). I think it was he and his (then) wife Hannah who converted the hold.

 

I hadn't remembered that Chris Nicholls sold Tycho to Martin Cottis (well, he didn't have it long!) but I can say that Martin and Anne Cottis had owned Barnham & Angel, and Martin later owned Coronis I think. A few years ago he was instrumental in trying to keep going some moorings on the Thames tideway near Rotherhithe where he lived on Dutch barge Vogelzand.

 

Paul Money worked initially as a steerer for London Waterbus Co and then defected to Jason's Trip (a well trodden path). Before Tycho he had owned Shed, that curious pontoon conversion being bow-hauled by that bearded character Rob Robinson when pictured in Bob May's photographic book of the BCN.

 

That ought to complete the list of owners during that period!

 

 

Steve

[Derek R.]

Well, Paul and Derek, some interesting observations on Tycho's paintwork. I guess the clincher would be the location of the Mattys yellow; below the BW blue and the latter would not be original, above the BW blue and it would be original British Waterways blue.

 

Steve

 

Thanks for the list Steve. It will be difficult to say exactly that the various blues are after Matty, or before. Whilst I got down to metal in a few places, the presence of Matty yellow was there in places but not all over. It's possible if it was applied quickly, it may also have been removed easily! Most pictures I've seen of Matty's boats, an absence of large areas of paint seems to have been a main feature. Only contact with the various individuals who owned her over the years will reveal all.

 

I do have some painting to do on the roof, so an investigative scrape will be in order.