imported steel and boats

[onionbargee]

Because the price of western european steel has tripled in the last few years alot of narrowboat fabricators are using imported steel from China, India or eastern europe, and of course we are importing complete boats from Poland, and now China. All steel is not the same, and Polish built yaughts have been around for years, and have a reputation of only lasting half as long boats build in the west. Chinese steel quality is classified as "appalling" !

 

So your slightly cheaper Chinese made boat may not be value for money if it needs overplating in 10 years, and think how little it costs the distiributer in the first place, i'm guessing it costs more to import the shipping container than the whole boat costs.

[Yoda]

Because the price of western european steel has tripled in the last few years alot of narrowboat fabricators are using imported steel from China, India or eastern europe, and of course we are importing complete boats from Poland, and now China. All steel is not the same, and Polish built yaughts have been around for years, and have a reputation of only lasting half as long boats build in the west. Chinese steel quality is classified as "appalling" !

 

So your slightly cheaper Chinese made boat may not be value for money if it needs overplating in 10 years, and think how little it costs the distiributer in the first place, i'm guessing it costs more to import the shipping container than the whole boat costs.

 

If you pardon the expression, you have hit the nail on the head.

 

I tried awhile ago to explain that the quality of the steels used was poor and now when you take you pride and joy in to be re-plated, it will be with shit steel.

 

It is worth spending extra money, if nessasary, to have your boat built with good quality mild steel from a known source. It is also worth having the type of steel upgraded for a longer life. The cleaner the alloy the better.

 

Over to Gary!

Edited January 7, 2008 by Yoda

[Billypownall]

Because the price of western european steel has tripled in the last few years alot of narrowboat fabricators are using imported steel from China, India or eastern europe, and of course we are importing complete boats from Poland, and now China. All steel is not the same, and Polish built yaughts have been around for years, and have a reputation of only lasting half as long boats build in the west. Chinese steel quality is classified as "appalling" !

 

So your slightly cheaper Chinese made boat may not be value for money if it needs overplating in 10 years, and think how little it costs the distiributer in the first place, i'm guessing it costs more to import the shipping container than the whole boat costs.

I am sorry Onion but your posting makes no sense to me at all. Just where is Chinese Steel classified as appallng ?? I was in the metal business for many years and some British Steel was not so hot.I imported millions of pounds worth of Steel Castings from India without any quality problems whatsover.In any case a few impurities in the steel is not going to affect the integrity of a narrowboat to any degree. For narrowboats I think it is more the question of how well the steel is rolled. As for Polish boats only lasting half as long as boats built in the West I consider this to be simply rubbish. The Polish have been building boats such as North Sea Trawlers for years and they have an excellent reputation. Much as I regret to have to say it I think Polish narrowboats are a credit to their builders. I would not recommend the English builder of our last boat to anyone.

[andy1]

how much is the price of steel today , say for instance for a 50 foot semi trad nb with a 12mm baseplate ,8mm sides and 4mm superstructure ?

[Gary Peacock]

It is actually quite difficult to find ungraded steel in Europe because their is no demand.But it does exist, during the steel shortage 3 or 4 years ago it by necessity found it's way into some British built boats simply because builders were desperate to complete orders and didn't really have much choice.

 

To use such steel today it would have to be knowingly, you do not get poor quality graded steel the paperwork that accompanies it is very tightly controlled. If the polish are using properly graded steel I can't really see it being in any way different from the steel sourced in the UK, I don't really know about China but they are taking an awful lot of the worlds total steel output at the moment and that steel will be graded so it seems unlikely that they will be using anything of a lower standard that is home grown.

 

The biggest problem we have with steel is the finish either from the mill during rolling where the surface is rippled or the surface is very scratched due to poor handling.

 

One little tip I will give you about steel when visiting builders is to keep an eye open for any very rusty steel, these days when you order steel the mill to end user turn around time is normally very quick and it is seldom rusty at all so any steel appearing very rusty as been around the block a bit, it's not necessarily poor steel but a little unusual so it could be worth just seeking an explanation.

Edited January 7, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[Hairy-Neil]

how much is the price of steel today , say for instance for a 50 foot semi trad nb with a 12mm baseplate ,8mm sides and 4mm superstructure ?

 

12 - 8 - 4 is a long way off the average hull plating for narrowboats built today. Hull sides are rarely more than 6mm. 8mm would be nearly impossible to pull into the shapes required for the swims, counter etc. with the tools the average shell builder has at his disposal. A trend is also to use 5mm for the sides of the superstructure (less distortion) and 4mm only gets used for the top, again as it has to be shaped.

[Gary Peacock]

12 - 8 - 4 is a long way off the average hull plating for narrowboats built today. Hull sides are rarely more than 6mm. 8mm would be nearly impossible to pull into the shapes required for the swims, counter etc. with the tools the average shell builder has at his disposal. A trend is also to use 5mm for the sides of the superstructure (less distortion) and 4mm only gets used for the top, again as it has to be shaped.

 

The industry spec (Well at least the BMF/CBA side of it!) is 10/6/5/4 this is fine for a simple narrowboat but gets a little "iffy" for bigger boats so we use 15/8/5/5 on bigger boats.

[Hairy-Neil]

The industry spec (Well at least the BMF/CBA side of it!) is 10/6/5/4 this is fine for a simple narrowboat but gets a little "iffy" for bigger boats so we use 15/8/5/5 on bigger boats.

 

Your comment is unclear whether 15/8/5/5 is used on your non simple narrowboats or whether the bigger boats it is saved for are the wide beam types you also build......

[PeterF]

Just to add some weight to earlier replies, some of the largest pressure vessel fabricators are now based in India and China is emerging as also emerging as force in this market. For those not sure what pressure vessels mean, it is the large reactors, columns, tanks etc in chemical plants and oil refineries. Large international companies with the highest standards for safety are purchasing such equipment from India and China, so if they can build a 6m diameter, 30m long pressure vessel capable of 1000psig internal pressure costing in the region of £1-2 million, a narrow boat is, I am afraid fairly simple. One of my colleagues used to be a senior mechanical engineer for Exxon and he was more than happy to buy from India. People used to laugh at Japanese cars but who is laughing now.

[Gary Peacock]

Your comment is unclear whether 15/8/5/5 is used on your non simple narrowboats or whether the bigger boats it is saved for are the wide beam types you also build......

 

Narrowboats are 10/6/5/4 and occaisionally Narrowbarges are 15/6/5/4 anything bigger is always 15/8/5/5.

[andy1]

if you where to build yourself your own nb what spec would you use ?

[Chris Pink]

how much is the price of steel today , say for instance for a 50 foot semi trad nb with a 12mm baseplate ,8mm sides and 4mm superstructure ?

 

About £4,500 for 52 foot at 10/6/4mm cabin halfway.

£3,300 got the hull and sides bought by weight so add on about 20% of that for your spec (can't be bothered to do the exact maths)

 

GUCCCo boats had 5/16" sides (8mm) on 3'9" frames (1,100mm) which I guess was an 'industry standard' if you want to chuck 20 tons into it.

I think if you specify side (or bottom) thickness then specifying the frame distances follow, so 6mm is fine if the frame distances are closer and vice versa.

 

including VAT

Edited January 7, 2008 by Chris Pink

[Gary Peacock]

if you where to build yourself your own nb what spec would you use ?

 

I don't think I would change from 10/6/5/4 it really is just about the ideal, if you really need to maximise head room a 15mm baseplate can be used to decrease the height of the ballast to achieve this but thats about the only reason to do it.

 

You could build a Barge Style Narrowboat using 15/8/5/4 the reduction in ballast would give you masses of headroom and one hell of a rigid hull but in reality the costs would increase and you probably wont be around yourself to see how much you extended the hulls life by with that spec.

 

We have built narrowboats on 20mm baseplate's at customers requests but in all honesty that's getting a bit silly really.

Edited January 8, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[Timleech]

About £4,500 for 52 foot at 10/6/4mm cabin halfway.

£3,300 got the hull and sides bought by weight so add on about 20% of that for your spec (can't be bothered to do the exact maths)

 

GUCCCo boats had 5/16" sides (8mm) on 3'9" frames (1,100mm) which I guess was an 'industry standard' if you want to chuck 20 tons into it.

 

including VAT

 

Without digging out the drawings, but based on many (happy?) hours spent repairing them, I'd say that main side plating was mostly 1/4" (6.2mm), as it was with many other iron or steel Narrow Boats. Some GU bow plating was specced at 5/16" & ISTR there were some odd fractional thicknesses specified for some other parts.

 

Tim

[Hairy-Neil]

Some GU bow plating was specced at 5/16"

 

Tim

 

I've checked the drawings for the Large Northwich and its 5/16 for the base plate and 1/4 for the hull sides throughout. I've also made welded repairs to the hull of the Nuneaton on several occasions and this was the conclusion I drew from that experience. I don't have drawings for the Woolwich boats but having spent a couple of weeks welding on Brighton I don't recall finding anything much different to the Northwich.

 

ISTR there were some odd fractional thicknesses specified for some other parts.

 

There's an odd size plate of 3/20 used on the bulkheads.....

 

The Northwich 'frames' were spaced at 3' 6" centres

 

We have built narrowboats on 20mm baseplate's at customers requests but in all honesty that's getting a bit silly really.

 

I've seen it used on replica tugs to emulate the deep ballasted look without being deep draughted or compromising the headroom. Not sure why there's a need to go shallow draught though. I've navigated a large part of the system on boats drawing 2' 6" to 3 foot (and have friends who've been just about everywhere an ex GUCCC boat can go) and have always managed to get to where I was going.

Edited January 8, 2008 by Hairy-Neil

[Timleech]

I've checked the drawings for the Large Northwich and its 5/16 for the base plate and 1/4 for the hull sides throughout. I've also made welded repairs to the hull of the Nuneaton on several occasions and this was the conclusion I drew from that experience. I don't have drawings for the Woolwich boats but having spent a couple of weeks welding on Brighton I don't recall finding anything much different to the Northwich.

There's an odd size plate of 3/20 used on the bulkheads.....

 

I've just checked the Small Woolwich drawing, it calls for 6/20" bow plating (7.6mm), with 1/4" sides.

My Large Northwich drawing has unfortunately faded so that the bow plating size is illegible, but it's probably the same drawing you have, so I'll take your word for that. Edited to say that it appears to show that the top strake plating is 5/16", though the condition of my copy makes it difficult to be certain.

 

I've worked on just about every variety & build of metal ex-working Narrow Boat hull, except for River class which I've been spared AFAIR . I don't recall any of them having side plating of more than 1/4" thick.

 

Tim

Edited January 8, 2008 by Timleech

[Timleech]

Double post deleted

Edited January 8, 2008 by Timleech

[Yoda]

Sizing ther plate for boats would come down to what's available in size and how much. Quarter plate was always available and I think most of most boats was made of it.

[Hairy-Neil]

My Large Northwich drawing has unfortunately faded so that the bow plating size is illegible, but it's probably the same drawing you have, so I'll take your word for that. Edited to say that it appears to show that the top strake plating is 5/16", though the condition of my copy makes it difficult to be certain.

 

 

Tim

 

Yes, top strake plating is down as 5/16.....