48hr mooring

[Paul C]

50 minutes ago, waterworks said:

 

 

Public bodies can't do "as they see fit" , they can only do what legislation specifically allows

 

 

 

 

The legislation says they can, it actually uses those very words.

[waterworks]

51 minutes ago, Paul C said:

The legislation says they can, it actually uses those very words.

Explain why BW put a bill to parliament in 1995 to set the terms and conditions for licences if they already had this power since 1962 ?

[Paul C]

8 minutes ago, waterworks said:

Explain why BW put a bill to parliament in 1995 to set the terms and conditions for licences if they already had this power since 1962 ?

 

Because the 1962 Bill allows them to charge for, or set T&Cs, for facilities/services - ie things over and above the basic navigation itself. Licence is different.

[waterworks]

3 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

Because the 1962 Bill allows them to charge for, or set T&Cs, for facilities/services - ie things over and above the basic navigation itself. Licence is different.

You agree this highlighted part of the CRT boat licence terms and conditions document is false then ?

 

GENERAL TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR BOAT LICENCES 
(EXCLUDING BUSINESS LICENCES) 
Introduction 
In accordance with s.43(3) of the Transport Act 1962, boat licences are subject to the conditions which 
apply to the Use of a boat on any Waterway which We own or manage. These are necessary to protect 
third parties and to help Us manage the Waterways well for the benefit of all Our users. If You breach any 
of these Conditions the Trust can terminate Your Licence, which may result in the removal of Your boat 
from Our Waterways

[Paul C]

37 minutes ago, waterworks said:

You agree this highlighted part of the CRT boat licence terms and conditions document is false then ?

 

GENERAL TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR BOAT LICENCES 
(EXCLUDING BUSINESS LICENCES) 
Introduction 
In accordance with s.43(3) of the Transport Act 1962, boat licences are subject to the conditions which 
apply to the Use of a boat on any Waterway which We own or manage. These are necessary to protect 
third parties and to help Us manage the Waterways well for the benefit of all Our users. If You breach any 
of these Conditions the Trust can terminate Your Licence, which may result in the removal of Your boat 
from Our Waterways

 

Its not false - I'll trust that you've quoted it correctly from the T&C, and it is the wording which appears in there.

 

I agree its potentially challengeable as an unreasonable term though. 

 

But here's my take on the whole Terms and Conditions thing: Since there are laws, byelaws and the boating handbook/guide already, the terms and conditions just add another confusing quasi-official layer of 'fluff' a boater has to know about, theoretically read before signing, and deal with. The entirety of the terms and conditions should be eliminated. If anything is important enough that CRT (and the wider boating population) want it to be a rule, then make it a byelaw and enforce it consistently. For example, 8pm-8am no engine running; not mooring at certain spots; not hitting lock gates, etc. And if there's enough flexibility that some aspect of boating could be done a different way, but for simplicity for beginners, its worth a mention, put it in the boater's handbook (for example, order of operations at locks).

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

Its not false - I'll trust that you've quoted it correctly from the T&C, and it is the wording which appears in there.

 

I agree its potentially challengeable as an unreasonable term though. 

 

Are you suggesting that C&RT are misquoting their powers under the 1962 Act section 43(3), or are you suggesting that the 1962 Act is 'potentially challengable'

 

It reads pretty clearly to me ...................

 

 

43(3) Subject to this Act and to any such enactment as is mentioned in the last foregoing subsection, the [F112British Waterways Board and the Strategic Rail Authority] shall have power to demand, take and recover [F113or waive] such charges for their services and facilities, and to make the use of those services and facilities subject to such terms and conditions, as they think fit.

 

Both charging for mooring (ala Llangollen) & 'time limited' moorings would appear to be  something that they could easily instigate under that clause.

[Paul C]

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Are you suggesting that C&RT are misquoting their powers under the 1962 Act section 43(3), or are you suggesting that the 1962 Act is 'potentially challengable'

 

It reads pretty clearly to me ...................

 

 

43(3) Subject to this Act and to any such enactment as is mentioned in the last foregoing subsection, the [F112British Waterways Board and the Strategic Rail Authority] shall have power to demand, take and recover [F113or waive] such charges for their services and facilities, and to make the use of those services and facilities subject to such terms and conditions, as they think fit.

 

Both charging for mooring (ala Llangollen) & 'time limited' moorings would appear to be  something that they could easily instigate under that clause.

 

No, I'm saying that the wording in the contract that waterworks quoted is probably challengeable under contract law (as an unreasonable term); in that the penalties they can set, do not include revocation of a boat licence (because, broad as the applicability of that section of the 1962 act is, it only applies to facilities and services, not the basic use of the canals/rivers).

 

For example, specifically for moorings, they can say that visitor mooring areas which are improved some way (thus, fit into the provision of a facility over & above the basic canal) can also have T&C imposed (eg max stay 48h) and can have charges (free for first 48h then £25/day thereafter).

 

Same goes for booking eg Anderton Lift, advance booking of moorings, moorings with hookup, etc.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

 

No, I'm saying that the wording in the contract that waterworks quoted is probably challengeable under contract law (as an unreasonable term); in that the penalties they can set, do not include revocation of a boat licence (because, broad as the applicability of that section of the 1962 act is, it only applies to facilities and services, not the basic use of the canals/rivers).

 

For example, specifically for moorings, they can say that visitor mooring areas which are improved some way (thus, fit into the provision of a facility over & above the basic canal) can also have T&C imposed (eg max stay 48h) and can have charges (free for first 48h then £25/day thereafter).

 

Same goes for booking eg Anderton Lift, advance booking of moorings, moorings with hookup, etc.

 

 

I was not referring to C&RTs powers to revoke the licence but to "Waterworks" repeated statement that C&RT do not have any authority to make any resticted mooring times below 14 days.

 

I'd suggest that C&RT can make (say) 2-day moorings and the penalty for oversatying is a charge, (not revocation of the licence).

 

I think you agree with that. it is just Waterworks that seem not to grasp legislation.

[Oddjob]

On 23/07/2023 at 15:41, Tony Brooks said:

 

In that case, phone the CaRT regional office and explain, I am about 98% sure they will accomodate you.

I had just this issue in market Harbrough called up the local licensing officer told him I had just come out of major surgery he said fine no issue stay as long as needed. Also he said I see my your movement record on the system you are a cc’er that moves most days so not taking the Mickey stay as long as you need.