Inverters

[anhar]

My pure 'bug' DAB radio has two seperate wake up' alarms settable to a particular day or everyday or weekdays only and a sleep option and it runs on 12v.

That's fine magnet but I mentioned a mains clock radio simply as an example of something commonplace that presumably doesn't work with msw inverters. I wasn't intending it to be an exhaustive list of things that won't run on msw.

 

Many things are available in 12v, even a 'wave, but they mostly cost a huge amount more than mains appliances and moreover, without the large range and easy availability of the latter. One can do without a mains inverter altogether and have 12v stuff only, a large number of boats do, maybe the majority, but running 12v only isn't what this thread is about. Pav wants an inverter, we are discussing the type, not whether he should have one or not.

 

As an amusing aside, a couple years ago when I first joined this forum upon deciding to have me a boat built, I asked about inverters. At the time I knew dick about them, having no background in boats at all. When asking about makes and types etc. a regular reader asked in the thread why I wanted one at all, he'd been boating for a 100 years and never felt the need for such a device and so on. I leave readers to guess who that might be.

 

regards

Steve

Edited November 17, 2007 by anhar

[chris w]

Don't worry - at his age he can't live forever

[Guest]

This argument seems to arise regularly Chris. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I confirm having no technical knowledge. But I don't need it.

 

Bottom line is, I want an inverter that will work with anything no question. I don't want to have to worry every time I use some appliance whether it will work properly. It is perhaps precisely because I don't have technical knowledge that I see it this way. I don't want to know, I want simply to plug and play. You and some others are satisfied with msw even though it will not function correctly with certain equipment. The latter appears to be wider than just electronic timers and speed controls according to some readers but whatever, you admit that msw will not function universally. That's unacceptable for me and I would have thought for most people spending what must be a large sum on a new boat given the relatively small additional cost of psw.

 

For example I presume you can't even run something as simple as, say, a mains clock radio to listen to whilst falling asleep on timer and wake you up. You may not want to but my point is that it is valuable to have the capacity to do so.

 

Then there's the future issue. Two points. A boater with a new boat may not know what appliances they would like in future. Secondly, technology changes in that new things are available and old things are redesigned. You know that better than me. Far as I know it is as certain as it gets that psw will power anything in future. It is not certain that msw will do so if it can't even power everything now.

 

As for the higher power consumption of psw it simply requires the correct system design as I've said often which you mention. This isn't about my particular boat, it is a general comment for anyone having a new build or refitting, which is what the original query was about.

 

Some of the responses have ignored the fact that this query is about a new build. It's not about someone sticking an inverter into an old boat who probably isn't the type to have a range of modern appliance anyway. As I keep saying on a new build it makes no sense, to me, to save a relatively minuscule amount of money for something that just doesn't work universally. On top of that, Sterling is an inferior brand anyway as Chris Gibson and Gary Peacock, who ought to know because they see large numbers, have confirmed.

 

regards

Steve

Can you expand on this please? Inferior in what way? I have a Sterling PSW which has done a sterling job for almost 4 years (pun intended). I can't say it is superior or inferior as it is the only one I have owned. The cooling fan is a little annoying, which is my only criticism. Which Sterling products have given you problems for you to have drawn this conclusion? Was it failure, or perhaps tech. support issues maybe? Would certain items not function correctly from your Sterling equipment? I am interested in your experiences with Sterling products, any problems that you have encountered and why I would be better buying a different brand when mine eventually fails.

[smileypete]

Can you expand on this please? Inferior in what way? I have a Sterling PSW which has done a sterling job for almost 4 years (pun intended). I can't say it is superior or inferior as it is the only one I have owned. The cooling fan is a little annoying, which is my only criticism. Which Sterling products have given you problems for you to have drawn this conclusion? Was it failure, or perhaps tech. support issues maybe? Would certain items not function correctly from your Sterling equipment? I am interested in your experiences with Sterling products, any problems that you have encountered and why I would be better buying a different brand when mine eventually fails.

This is what Gibbo said about inverters when I recently asked about them:

 

Has the design or quality of the cheaper or mid-range (eg Sterling) inverters improved over the years?

 

Also do they fail for a wide variety of reasons or are most failures down to a few reasons.

There's not really any consistency.

 

The 1500 Watt puresine inverter that Rich Electric make and sell (the one Sterling badge) is a brilliant inverter. Likewise the 3000 watt unit.

 

The 1500 watt puresine unit that Kotek make and sell (badged mainly by Sinergex) is also a brilliant inverter. Internally it's almost identical to the Rich Electric one. Only the case and front panel is really different.

 

But there are also some absolute horrors available. I've seen several different puresine inverters in extruded aluminium cases and they have been absolutely attrocious. Badly designed, dreadful circuits, badly put together etc.

 

The modified sinewave units are all rubbish.

 

On the high frequency modified sinewave units nearly all the failures are due bad circuit design.

 

On line frequency MSW it is nearly always user abuse.

 

On pure sinewave it's nearly always user abuse. Backfeeds, reverse polarity, water damage etc.

 

Before anyone starts crying note the use of the words "nearly always".

That said, looking back there's been some good feedback on the Kipoint/Sterling MSW inverters.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Guest]

Snip from Gibbo's post as linked by Pete:

"The 1500 Watt puresine inverter that Rich Electric make and sell (the one Sterling badge) is a brilliant inverter. Likewise the 3000 watt unit."

 

That'll do for me, mine is the 3000 rebadged Rich

 

Thanks for linking that Pete.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Guest

[chris w]

Victron also aren't above having problems. A friend of mine rang Cow Roast Marina to say that he had a fault on his Victron Inverter/Charger (PSW). The engineer said, "well get it here quick as I have a pallet of Victron stuff going back for repair!!"

 

Chris

[tomsk]

Victron also aren't above having problems. A friend of mine rang Cow Roast Marina to say that he had a fault on his Victron Inverter/Charger (PSW). The engineer said, "well get it here quick as I have a pallet of Victron stuff going back for repair!!"

 

Chris

 

I have always found Victrons attitude to customer service beyond reproach. That is all.

[pagan witch]

For what it is worth we have run a 2kw peak 1.6kw continuous MSW 'Ring' inverter for 3 years now without porblem.

 

It doesn't like the power supply for my old laptop which I suspect by its' weight is a transformer type nor does it like one of our mobile phone chargers - again a transfomer type.

 

Works everything else no problem - kettle, computers, TV, DVD etc.

 

The only real 'problem' it gives is the output at appx 220v is just low enough for my tower computers' UPS to regard as a power failure so it constantly switches between mains and UPS battery. This is such a small problem as to be not worth worrying about.

[RobinJ]

Robin.... with respect what you have written is mainly nonsense. There is no offical definition of "quasi" or "modified". They may be different, they may be the same. I have never seen a non-pure-sinewave (NPSW) inverter with 2v steps and don't believe one exists. Even with 50v steps you will only get around 6% wave distortion if you run the maths.

 

Further your statement that "Only mains equipment that utilises switched mode type supplies will notice the difference, ..................................... as they will fail or be unable to regulate the power properly."

 

This is totally wrong. It is switched-mode power supplies (SMPS) that will work best on a NPSW inverter because SMPS's don't care what the input wave looks like and will also work automatically over a very wide input voltage range. If you knew how they worked, you would realise they don't care about wave shape. Old fashioned 50Hz transformer charges may object because square waves contain many high frequency harmonics which might cause the transformer to overheat.

 

I agree with your statement about (mains) dimmers as the "shape" of the wave is important for them.

 

Chris

Well Chris, the definition was made when they were first produced, the cheap ones used a lumpy imitation of a sine wave and the expensive ones a smoother one!

The same applies to switched mode power supplies, cheap ones rely on the chopped voltage, hence are not likely to work, the expensive ones work on controlling the power, hence are not bothered so long as they can switch at the right time.

[anhar]

Can you expand on this please? Inferior in what way? I have a Sterling PSW which has done a sterling job for almost 4 years (pun intended). I can't say it is superior or inferior as it is the only one I have owned. The cooling fan is a little annoying, which is my only criticism. Which Sterling products have given you problems for you to have drawn this conclusion? Was it failure, or perhaps tech. support issues maybe? Would certain items not function correctly from your Sterling equipment? I am interested in your experiences with Sterling products, any problems that you have encountered and why I would be better buying a different brand when mine eventually fails.

Sterling equipment has more problems. My evidence is the two references I gave earlier.

 

Note that individual experiences, unless one sees a large number which is unlikely, are of very little use in assessing the quality of an item. It is only over large numbers that a fair opinion can be obtained. Some people because they are in the trade as a builder or whatever are in a position to view a number of items and therefore their view is worth a lot more than individual cases. If someone who has experience with a number of items tells that Brand X is better than Brand Y because of fewer failures and better company service, then I'm inclined to take their word for it. If two such people tell me this then I'm definitely going to listen. To me it's just good business and I was in business most of my life. Too many people though are ruled by their wallets and penny pinch, or alternatively are ruled by emotion.

 

Me, I don't care, I just want the best, period. If Sterling had the rep. of Victron or Mastervolt I gladly would have bought their kit. This isn't personal at least it's not for me though others seem to take it so, for me it's just practical. I want the least difficulties with my boating, even if I have to pay a few hundred more, irrelevant on a new build. Which brand is likely to give me the least problem and if perchance there is something awry then which is likely to offer the best service? No contest.

 

Whenever something is criticised here, or praised, we always see personal responses attempting to prove the opposite. In fact they don't prove the point either way because they are numerically too limited to draw any hard conclusions. I can show you readers here who've had very bad experience with Sterling. In practice even the worst brands will have some good examples. Even the best brands will have some poor examples. But the mark of good quality is that a company has the least incidence of faulty products and then deals promptly and fairly with any complaints or enquiries that do arise.

 

regards

Steve

Edited November 19, 2007 by anhar

[Guest]

Sterling equipment has more problems. My evidence is the two references I gave earlier.

 

Note that individual experiences, unless one sees a large number which is unlikely, are of very little use in assessing the quality of an item. It is only over large numbers that a fair opinion can be obtained. Some people because they are in the trade as a builder or whatever are in a position to view a number of items and therefore their view is worth a lot more than individual cases. If someone who has experience with a number of items tells that Brand X is better than Brand Y because of fewer failures and better company service, then I'm inclined to take their word for it. If two such people tell me this then I'm definitely going to listen. To me it's just good business and I was in business most of my life. Too many people though are ruled by their wallets and penny pinch, or alternatively are ruled by emotion.

 

Me, I don't care, I just want the best, period. If Sterling had the rep. of Victron or Mastervolt I gladly would have bought their kit. This isn't personal at least it's not for me though others seem to take it so, for me it's just practical. I want the least difficulties with my boating, even if I have to pay a few hundred more, irrelevant on a new build. Which brand is likely to give me the least problem and if perchance there is something awry then which is likely to offer the best service? No contest.

 

Whenever something is criticised here, or praised, we always see personal responses attempting to prove the opposite. In fact they don't prove the point either way because they are numerically too limited to draw any hard conclusions. I can show you readers here who've had very bad experience with Sterling. In practice even the worst brands will have some good examples. Even the best brands will have some poor examples. But the mark of good quality is that a company has the least incidence of faulty products and then deals promptly and fairly with any complaints or enquiries that do arise.

 

regards

Steve

Don't get me wrong Steve, I am not bothered. Gibbo has already stated that mine is excellent kit (or words to that effect). Just wondered if you had encountered any personal problems or dealings with Sterling?

[anhar]

Don't get me wrong Steve, I am not bothered. Gibbo has already stated that mine is excellent kit (or words to that effect). Just wondered if you had encountered any personal problems or dealings with Sterling?

Not personally catweasel no. I've got a Victron which so far has given sterling service. I mean it hasn't given Sterling service.

 

regards

Steve

[Guest]

Not personally catweasel no. I've got a Victron which so far has given sterling service. I mean it hasn't given Sterling service.

 

regards

Steve

We got there eventually!

[Pav]

Hi everyone, Being the starter of this thread, I thank all for your replies.

 

After giving much thought, I feel that Magnetman hits the nail on the head..................The extra money required to go PSW seems quite hard to justify, especially when a lot of feedback seems to sugest that a MSW will more or less do the job.

 

So I have decided (i think!!) to keep with a MSW, but to upsize from the originally proposed Sterling 1.8kw to a Sterling 2.5kw and will hope that I do not regret my decision once it is put to the test.

 

I will let you know how I get on with it when the narrowboat is eventually/finally completed and handed over to me.

After many delays, this should hopefully be sometime in December.

 

Bye for now,

Pav.

 

This is an update to the above

 

Told you I only thought I had made a decision to choose a 2.5kw MSW..............

..............Went to see how the build was coming along this afternoon. Progress is being made on the work, but the thing which really gave us a BIG smile was when we saw the name was on the namepanel (well one side anyway). The design and end result has turned out much better than we could have hoped for and has given Marmaduke an identity now. We are really chuffed

 

So with regards to the inverter. I have decided to bite the bullet and have asked the builder to fit a PSW. The Power Master 1.8kw came out well in a test against 14 other makes and the price for a 3kw model was also more realistic than its competiters, so that is what we have gone for. It has a 2 year warranty as back up. I was getting a headache over which way to go and so I am relieved that I have, at long, last made a FINAL decision. BUT more importantly, SWMBO, is even happier that she will no longer need to listen to me banging on about inverters................something she understands even less about than I do................and that is not a lot!!

 

Anyway, thanks for all the feedback from you all.

 

Regards,

Pav.