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SteveE

Nb Glenfield

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We're working hard to try and discover the history of our nice old boat and are hoping that the reserves of knowledge and experience which exist in the forum will be able to help.

 

The boat was reputedly built by Thomas Bantock in the 1880's and was of composite construction. The elm bottom has been replaced with steel and the stern has a swim, counter and a rear engine room. The old rivetted iron construction appears to continue right to the stem and suggests that it was not, therefore, a joey as the stem is curved and would not take a rudder.

 

The Waterways Trust have suggested that the BCN number (2142) was allocated in 1943 to a boat previously owned by T and S Element and which, in 1954, was owned by R. B. Tudor of West Bromwich. This is getting close to the recent history of conversion for pleasure in the early 60's.

 

Here is a picture of her and any help will be rewarded by copious quantities of virtual beer.

 

P7010021.jpg

SteveE

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We're working hard to try and discover the history of our nice old boat and are hoping that the reserves of knowledge and experience which exist in the forum will be able to help.

 

The boat was reputedly built by Thomas Bantock in the 1880's and was of composite construction. The elm bottom has been replaced with steel and the stern has a swim, counter and a rear engine room. The old rivetted iron construction appears to continue right to the stem and suggests that it was not, therefore, a joey as the stem is curved and would not take a rudder.

 

The Waterways Trust have suggested that the BCN number (2142) was allocated in 1943 to a boat previously owned by T and S Element and which, in 1954, was owned by R. B. Tudor of West Bromwich. This is getting close to the recent history of conversion for pleasure in the early 60's.

 

Here is a picture of her and any help will be rewarded by copious quantities of virtual beer.

 

P7010021.jpg

SteveE

 

 

Hi Steve,

 

I might be in danger of spreading more confusion than light, and if you've Googled you've probably found these links already, but.....

 

In the 1970's Max Sinclair and Albert Brookes (engineer at Allens of Oldbury) raised and converted a Bantock "Mk 1" into two boats, "Glenfield" and "Ballinger". The story is on the Worcestervista blog, and is mentioned on Granny Buttons.

 

Trouble is, when I googled for "Glenfield", I found a picture on the Allen Register page of the BCN Society which doesn't look like your boat.

 

glenfield_1_big.jpg

 

So are there two "Glenfield"s? Yours looks more like an original Bantock fore end. Here's a picture of our Bantock "Bride" for comparison.

 

449859572_0a4fca5c98_o.jpg

 

Do you know if your boat has the stepped knees where they would originally have fitted round the lower hull side oak/elm plank? This would confirm her as a Mk 1 Bantock, 1850's to '90's vintage. They were single ended horse boats often used in the railway interchange business, of much finer lines and superior construction than the joeys and later Mk 2s.

 

Rick

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The term Joey is used by different people in different ways. Pedantically it should only be used to refer to wooden double ended boats built by Joe Worsey. Over the years it has tended to be applied by many people to all BCN day boats whether double ended or not Your boat is certainly a Bantock which means it was originally built for/by Thomas Bantock who I believe was the agent for the Great Western Railway and it is strictly speaking a railway boat But from talking to old BCN boatmen most of them actually called them barges

 

Rick has found you some good source material but you might like to talk to Lawrence Hogg (who has Bantock plans) or Frances Stapleton (contact via BCNS) who is apparantly an expert.

 

R. B. Tudor was a coal merchant with a handful of boats based in I think Tipton. They had a number of day boats like yours and at least one motor boat The Albion (formerly the ex-GUCCC Antaries and also once in Element's hands.)

 

It is worth looking at as many different copies of the BCN guaging books as you can (try the BCN Society and Lawrence Hogg again as well as the Waterways Museum at Gloucester and/or Ellesmere Port.  Whilst ostensibly identical many pages have been annotated by hand and sometimes links are made to earlier registrations.

 

Max Sinclair is still around if you believe it to be part of his old boat. He is quite elderly now and admits that his memory is not what it was. In any case I doubt if he has much info to add

 

David Element of the Element family has been researching the history of Elements so it might be worth getting in touch with him.

 

http://www.starling101.btinternet.co.uk/canals/element.htm

 

Finally, Jim Shead's site lists 2 Glenfields - yours and Glenfield No 2, the Les Allen one.

 

Hope this helps a bit. Good luck.

 

Paul H

 

P.S. Have you spoken to Pete Harrison the boat archivist?

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I had read somewhere that the term joey boat came from Joseph Chamberlain, one of the driving forces in Birmingham politics in the late 19th century and in fact a major player on the world stage at the time. His son had a famous, if ultimately worthless peice of paper a few years later. Joseph C was instrumental in reforming much of the living conditions and working practices of the common man in Birmingham, but it makes just as much if not more sense for Joe Worsey to have been the Joey in the term.

 

On to the boat above, if you have a look at the foot of the ribs of your boat you may see a 'kink' in them, this was because Bantocks built their earlier boats with not only a wooden bottom but also a wooden bottom plank on the side neccesitating said 'kink'.

 

Edited to apologise to Rick for repeating his explanation...

 

I will ask around some friends and see what I can find out as well.

Edited by AMModels

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Pete Harrison is the man when it comes to Bantock boats. I've pm'd you his contact details. Its worth joining the Historic Narrowboat Owners Club, they've a Yahoo group where you can ask for more help. Richard Booth has extensive archives, as does the club archivist. Also the informal joey boat group at the Black Country Museum have recently turned up some more info from gauging tables etc. Edward Parrot there provided me with a pretty complete history of our boat.

 

Let me know what you find out, I'd like to learn as much as I can about these boats.

 

Rick

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Thank you all for this very interesting information and important links. The other Glenfield is pictured recently with a stove chimney coming out through the cratch board, which must be a novelty and clearly means that it is not our boat. More anon...........

Best regards

SteveE

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Ok after a little bit of research I have found out some sketchy details, GLENFIELD and BALLINGER were two 56ft boats constructed from a mark 1 Bantock by Max Sinclair and some friends in 1968. They found the Bantock as a sunken wreck and took her to Bumblehole, she had spent part of her life as a spoon dredger and also had a small day boat cabin fitted as well although by the time she reached Bumblehole all that was left was the front bulkhead really, the hull was hauled out of the canal using Albert Brookes tractor and then cut in half to make the aforementioned boats. The counter sterns and swims were welded out of scrap Ford lorry steel this could possibly account for the 'old look' to the counter area. Max Sinclair had BALLINGER but GLENFIELD went elsewhere and eventually ended up in your hands, BALLINGER is believed to be in Yorkshire these days, I would hazard a guess that the other BCN plate of the pair is on her somewhere. Unlike GLENFIELD, BALLINGER has had a steel cabin fitted I should imagine in the original conversion they had very similar cabins fitted.

I found these details on a yahoo group Im a member of while just browsing through the pictures section.

 

I cant believe Ive just done it again, Rick said all this earlier. Apologies because I cant delete my post.

Edited by AMModels

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We're working hard to try and discover the history of our nice old boat and are hoping that the reserves of knowledge and experience which exist in the forum will be able to help. The boat was reputedly built by Thomas Bantock in the 1880's and was of composite construction. The elm bottom has been replaced with steel and the stern has a swim, counter and a rear engine room. The old rivetted iron construction appears to continue right to the stem and suggests that it was not, therefore, a joey as the stem is curved and would not take a rudder.The Waterways Trust have suggested that the BCN number (2142) was allocated in 1943 to a boat previously owned by T and S Element and which, in 1954, was owned by R. B. Tudor of West Bromwich. This is getting close to the recent history of conversion for pleasure in the early 60's.Here is a picture of her and any help will be rewarded by copious quantities of virtual beer.P7010021.jpgSteveE
Thank you all for this very interesting information and important links. The other Glenfield is pictured recently with a stove chimney coming out through the cratch board, which must be a novelty and clearly means that it is not our boat. More anon...........Best regardsSteveE
The bow of Glenfield was the stern of the Bantock Boat., Albert burned off the rudder pintles and ground the smooth shape. Albert and I built Glenfield named after the district of Leicester where Albert was born. Then I built Ballinger in honour of Charlie alone. Anybody interested in further detail plus all the other projects I have enjoyed should look at www.WorcesterVista.com our local history site or CanalScape-BCN.Robert.All this activity has worn me out at 77 so going into hospital for a new hip. Watch out I will soon be leaping aboard!. Max
The term Joey is used by different people in different ways. Pedantically it should only be used to refer to wooden double ended boats built by Joe Worsey. Over the years it has tended to be applied by many people to all BCN day boats whether double ended or not Your boat is certainly a Bantock which means it was originally built for/by Thomas Bantock who I believe was the agent for the Great Western Railway and it is strictly speaking a railway boat But from talking to old BCN boatmen most of them actually called them bargesRick has found you some good source material but you might like to talk to Lawrence Hogg (who has Bantock plans) or Frances Stapleton (contact via BCNS) who is apparantly an expert.R. B. Tudor was a coal merchant with a handful of boats based in I think Tipton. They had a number of day boats like yours and at least one motor boat The Albion (formerly the ex-GUCCC Antaries and also once in Element's hands.)It is worth looking at as many different copies of the BCN guaging books as you can (try the BCN Society and Lawrence Hogg again as well as the Waterways Museum at Gloucester and/or Ellesmere Port.  Whilst ostensibly identical many pages have been annotated by hand and sometimes links are made to earlier registrations.Max Sinclair is still around if you believe it to be part of his old boat. He is quite elderly now and admits that his memory is not what it was. In any case I doubt if he has much info to addDavid Element of the Element family has been researching the history of Elements so it might be worth getting in touch with him. http://www.starling101.btinternet.co.uk/canals/element.htmFinally, Jim Shead's site lists 2 Glenfields - yours and Glenfield No 2, the Les Allen one.Hope this helps a bit. Good luck.Paul HP.S. Have you spoken to Pete Harrison the boat archivist?
Not too old, while I am in Hospital have a look at CanalScape-BCN and www.WorcesterVista.com our local history site. Max

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The bow of Glenfield was the stern of the Bantock Boat., Albert burned off the rudder pintles and ground the smooth shape. Albert and I built Glenfield named after the district of Leicester where Albert was born. Then I built Ballinger in honour of Charlie alone. Anybody interested in further detail plus all the other projects I have enjoyed should look at www.WorcesterVista.com our local history site or CanalScape-BCN.Robert.All this activity has worn me out at 77 so going into hospital for a new hip. Watch out I will soon be leaping aboard!. MaxNot too old, while I am in Hospital have a look at CanalScape-BCN and www.WorcesterVista.com our local history site. Max

Hi Max, Welcome to the forum. Your input is going to very valuable here I'm sure. I didn't mean any offence by suggesting your memory was not what it was. MY memory isn't what it was! And I hear you were tug driving at Coombeswood recently. Hope the op goes well and you'll be lockwheeling up Tardebigge before too long!

 

Paul H

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Hi Max and welcome Ive had a look through your picures on Canalscape since we exchanged emails a while ago as well as reading the blog about the building of GLENFIELD and BALLINGER both of which were fascinating. As Paul says I am sure your contributions to this forum will be many fold and welcome.

 

Andy

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I know it's a bit of a long shot but anybody got access to photographs of the IWA festival at Leicester in 1967?

SteveE

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Welcome to the forum, Max, and thank you for your post, which confirms information provided to us by Martin Brookes. We have now got used to the fact that we're cruising the system backwards!

.

(Edit) By the way, do these pictures ring a bell? they were taken, on a cruise organised by Malcolm Braine in 1962 on the Cannock Extension, by Tony Jukes?

 

BCN boats Cannock

Sunken boat, Cannock

 

Best Wishes

SteveE

Edited by SteveE

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Yes it was fun, Eric Pike was on Adder and Peter Freakley telling us all about our mistakes. A wonderful time on the BCN. Max

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Yes it was fun, Eric Pike was on Adder and Peter Freakley telling us all about our mistakes. A wonderful time on the BCN. Max

Do you have anything on the likely history of the butty you made into Glenfield and Ballinger?

Best regards

Steve

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em nice little boat ,how you finding Bed'orth Steve none of the locals moor where you are cause of the kids! and it's half term this week :cheers:

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em nice little boat ,how you finding Bed'orth Steve none of the locals moor where you are cause of the kids! and it's half term this week :cheers:

Hi JohnO and thanks for this. Just between you and the rest of the forum we're nowhere near Bedworth and the next time we can get to the boat will be Friday! We shall, I'm afraid, have to hope that the junior residents of bedworth behave themselves.

Kind regards

SteveE

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Steve we are keeping an eye on her you have a fellow boater moored up next to Glenfield atm but he will be off in the morning, I will try and get up to you for a banter if you still around later tomorrow

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Steve we are keeping an eye on her you have a fellow boater moored up next to Glenfield atm but he will be off in the morning, I will try and get up to you for a banter if you still around later tomorrow

 

JohnO, this is great news and we are grateful and reassured. We will actually be down to the boat at about 11.30 on Sat and will be trying to get through Atherstone 5 on Sunday before BW close it. It would be great to see you if you're around - kettle will be on or something a little stronger.

Best regards

Steve

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The term Joey is used by different people in different ways. Pedantically it should only be used to refer to wooden double ended boats built by Joe Worsey. Over the years it has tended to be applied by many people to all BCN day boats whether double ended or not Your boat is certainly a Bantock which means it was originally built for/by Thomas Bantock who I believe was the agent for the Great Western Railway and it is strictly speaking a railway boat But from talking to old BCN boatmen most of them actually called them bargesRick has found you some good source material but you might like to talk to Lawrence Hogg (who has Bantock plans) or Frances Stapleton (contact via BCNS) who is apparantly an expert.R. B. Tudor was a coal merchant with a handful of boats based in I think Tipton. They had a number of day boats like yours and at least one motor boat The Albion (formerly the ex-GUCCC Antaries and also once in Element's hands.)It is worth looking at as many different copies of the BCN guaging books as you can (try the BCN Society and Lawrence Hogg again as well as the Waterways Museum at Gloucester and/or Ellesmere Port.  Whilst ostensibly identical many pages have been annotated by hand and sometimes links are made to earlier registrations.Max Sinclair is still around if you believe it to be part of his old boat. He is quite elderly now and admits that his memory is not what it was. In any case I doubt if he has much info to addDavid Element of the Element family has been researching the history of Elements so it might be worth getting in touch with him. http://www.starling101.btinternet.co.uk/canals/element.htmFinally, Jim Shead's site lists 2 Glenfields - yours and Glenfield No 2, the Les Allen one.Hope this helps a bit. Good luck.Paul HP.S. Have you spoken to Pete Harrison the boat archivist?
New Glenfield pictures added to CanalScapeBCN site, received from Martin Brookes. New hip great success Max Sinclair
Hi Steve,I might be in danger of spreading more confusion than light, and if you've Googled you've probably found these links already, but.....In the 1970's Max Sinclair and Albert Brookes (engineer at Allens of Oldbury) raised and converted a Bantock "Mk 1" into two boats, "Glenfield" and "Ballinger". The story is on the Worcestervista blog, and is mentioned on Granny Buttons.Trouble is, when I googled for "Glenfield", I found a picture on the Allen Register page of the BCN Society which doesn't look like your boat.glenfield_1_big.jpgSo are there two "Glenfield"s? Yours looks more like an original Bantock fore end. Here's a picture of our Bantock "Bride" for comparison.449859572_0a4fca5c98_o.jpgDo you know if your boat has the stepped knees where they would originally have fitted round the lower hull side oak/elm plank? This would confirm her as a Mk 1 Bantock, 1850's to '90's vintage. They were single ended horse boats often used in the railway interchange business, of much finer lines and superior construction than the joeys and later Mk 2s.Rick
We took the bent knees off when we replaced the steel plate sides and bottom. The "original Bantock fore end" is the stern after reshaping by Albert. Max

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Hi Steve

Ive lost your email add so i thought id try this way.

 

Ive found some photo's of glenfield at bumblehole. One is of dad forming the counter with the aid of 2 cyclinders a very large piece of timber with Max holding the plate.

 

He used star class plans for the stern ( the same were used for glenfield 2 with the allen touch ) and the stem bar came from claytons along with the bolinder and prop.

 

i helped him hold it up to the old stern while he marked arround the inside edge. I remember because at 10 i had ajob to hold it resulting in a little ear ache!!(any one who knew dad will know what i'm about ) i think Max came to my aid.

 

Ill have to check with Max but i think the counter of Ballinger was constructed in the shed on the farm at Romsley.

 

Martin

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Hi Steve

Ive lost your email add so i thought id try this way.

 

Ive found some photo's of glenfield at bumblehole. One is of dad forming the counter with the aid of 2 cyclinders a very large piece of timber with Max holding the plate.

 

He used star class plans for the stern ( the same were used for glenfield 2 with the allen touch ) and the stem bar came from claytons along with the bolinder and prop.

 

i helped him hold it up to the old stern while he marked arround the inside edge. I remember because at 10 i had ajob to hold it resulting in a little ear ache!!(any one who knew dad will know what i'm about ) i think Max came to my aid.

 

Ill have to check with Max but i think the counter of Ballinger was constructed in the shed on the farm at Romsley.

 

Martin

 

Hi Martin

Yes I'm here and am glad to welcome you to the forum. Thank you for the above information and I would love to see the photos you mention. If you look in the members' list here you'll be able to get my personal message details.

I am sure you will find the forum interesting - there is fund of knowledge and experience here as well as humour and barminess.

Best regards

Steve

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I have inserted today some more pictures of the building of Glenfield by Albert and Max on CanalScape BCN.

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I cant believe Ive just done it again, Rick said all this earlier. Apologies because I cant delete my post.

 

 

The plate 2142 has nothing to do with the hull, it was one of many lying in Les Allens yard. I put a pair on the front corners of " Vesta's" cabin to protect it from bumps.The Bantock hull started life as a station boat and it was its fine 'Canoe' bow which appealed to me. It spent many years on the BCN as a spoon dredger before being abandoned at Short Heath. When wer pumped it up it was full of shimmering stainles steel srews and pins thrown out of the adjoining factory window as hidden scrap. Max

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The plate 2142 has nothing to do with the hull, it was one of many lying in Les Allens yard. I put a pair on the front corners of " Vesta's" cabin to protect it from bumps.The Bantock hull started life as a station boat and it was its fine 'Canoe' bow which appealed to me. It spent many years on the BCN as a spoon dredger before being abandoned at Short Heath. When wer pumped it up it was full of shimmering stainles steel srews and pins thrown out of the adjoining factory window as hidden scrap. Max

 

I had found out that the BCN 2142 had nothing to do with Glenfield, the chronology didn't add up. I understand it came from 'Albion', previously 'Antares' which has since been scrapped otherwise we could have returned it to it's rightful owner. 'Glenfield' was owned by a Ken Walker (he called her 'Talpa') between 1976 and probably 1985.

The other information is great as it is building up our picture of her history nicely. We have cruised past Short Heath in the past but of course had no idea of the significance back then!

I have inserted today some more pictures of the building of Glenfield by Albert and Max on CanalScape BCN

 

I have had a look at these and they are really interesting, along with all the other old scenes.

All this recent information is fantastic. I keep hoping that we will be able to piece together the history pre 1964 from her days on the BCN but perhaps that is not going to be possible!

 

We also have a gap in her history from 1985 to 2000 following her ownership by Ken Walker (is he still around?) By 2000 she was 'Glenfield' again. Does anyone recall her during this period, probably between Birmingham and Uxbridge somewhere.

 

Thanks you to everyone who has contributed to our research so far. We will keep you posted on any further developments.

 

Regards

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Do you have anything on the likely history of the butty you made into Glenfield and Ballinger?

Best regards

Steve

 

The previous owner ( Wood) used it as a spoon dredger on the BCN for thirty years. He called it a Station Boat.It was a No 1 Bantock build with Elm Chine and bottoms. Max

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