Ellie

Does anyone have any contact details for the owner?

Does anyone know the name of the boat that sank? It looks remarkably like "Peggy Sue", sold this month by Nottingham Boats. Link I noticed it because I am fairly sure it is a boat I owned in the early nineties, then called Lady Olwen.

:lol: :lol:

Hmm I think there is a touch of sarcasm in the OP's post. In fact I know there is 'cos he told me! Another "phoenix" trader rising from the ashes....

Spesh and I both posted further up this thread about the possibility of Wrongful Trading. As I understand it (I'm not a lawyer!), a company may trade whilst insolvent and be doing nothing wrong legally, if the Directors can show that they had a reasonable expectation that by continuing to trade the company would become solvent and bills are paid as they fall due, ie trade its way out of trouble. However if a company is put into liquidation, the Official Receiver or more likely, an appointed Insolvency Practitioner can decide under s214 of the Insolvency Act 1986 that the company was wrongfully trading. The IP will look at whether bills were paid as they were due, the ratio of debt to assets, whether there are outstanding debts owed to HMRC/VAT, whether the Directors increased the debts of the company knowing the debts could not be repaid and so on. Wrongful Trading is not the same as fraudulent trading and no intent to commit fraud is required. The IP will also look at the general conduct of the Directors in the period up to the liquidation! If the IP decides that the company has been wrongfully trading then s/he can require the Directors to pay into the insolvency from their personal assets. However, due to IP fees etc, this is an expensive course of action so an Insolvency Practitioner is unlikely to go down this road unless the Directors have substantial personal assets to make it worthwhile going after them. But it does mean that if they have been wrongfully trading and do have personal assets then the Directors lose the protection of Limited Liability status. A Director can also be disqualified for up to fifteen years if their conduct warrants it. (edited for multiple typos..)

I appreciate it is stressful but what was the point in going this far if you aren't intending to pursue it? Another thousand pounds for a winding up petition would at least close the company. If the liquidator decrees the company was wrongfully trading, which seems quite possible given the conduct of the company, then the directors lose the protection of limited liability and are personally liable. The directors would have to make a personal contribution without limit as the court sees fit. Plus a possible disqualification from acting as a director for up to fifteen years. That really would protect decent people from being robbed in the future.

This goes from bad to worse. Robbery, theft, assault of a court official? Surely criminal charges must be next.

Well I had to show six months of my personal bank statements to my letting agent - to rent a house on a six month contract! It's not outrageous to expect a) a customer to demonstrate a means of paying and a builder to demonstrate that they are solvent by up to date accounts. Ally, you seem to believe that this is unaccceptable, but I don't see why - and as I suggested before, this could be through a regulatory body as it is unreasonable to expect customers to have to conduct these checks individually. As happynomad has pointed out, there are less risks with house building/renovation. I think the two are analogous, yet a house builder does not receive payment until the final completion but a boat builder expects the customer to fund the build. What I would be interested to hear are some proposals by reputable builders as to how the industry can regain its credibility and stop expecting customers to continue to take ridiculous risks with considerable sums of money.

I've been reading this thread and the accompanying blogs with interest/horror. How many people are going to get turned over by rogue builders before the boat building industry gets sorted out? It is surely in the interest of any reputable builders out there (there must be some surely?) that the industry is cleaned up. I have met so many people now who say they would not buy a new boat because of all the problems with builders going bust, customers losing money and so on and so on. Seems to me the problem is with the stage payments, the BMF contract and the complete lack of regulation in the industry. The customer has handed over thousands of pounds and so can't afford to walk away from a rogue builder even though s/he knows that s/he is probably throwing good money after bad. The claim that the payment means ownership has passed to the customer is utter bull - how many times have customers gone to claim "their" property only to find that it has disappeared, they are denied access or other customers have also paid for the same boat? Isn't it time that staged payments were done away with? If the builder cannot afford the fund the cost of building the boat maybe they should not be in the business. If the boat is very bespoke (Whitfield? ) then provision could be made to lodge payments in a third party solicitor's account until both parties are satisfied. Rogue builders are ruining the lives of people who set out with a dream and find it turns into a Kafkaesque nightmare. Only to discover then that the builder has gone bankrupt and then rises, phoenix like, from the ashes, to start again, and apparently with no problem with suppliers happy to trade with them. The narrowboat building industry needs legal regulation and soon, if people are going to have any confidence in it at all.

I think a good pub will be sought out irrespective of location, a listing in CAMRA's Guide would be a good start if it serves decent beer. Cyclists in particular will travel to many an out-of-the-way pub if it is decent, in my experience. Thanks for the heads-up, we are boating that way in a few days and will be sure to try it out. Although if they charge more than £3 a pint I will only have the one on point of principle.

I agree that a lot of boats on Apollo Duck are overpriced/rubbish. There are a small number of reasonable ones that turn around quite quickly, the rest languish on there for months or years. I am currently having a speculative look at boats for sale, with a view to buying one in the next few months (hopefully). Can anyone recommend good sites/brokers/other places to search? Looking in the lower end price range, pribably 38-45ft, less than £25k. Cheers Ellie

I am having a clear out and I have some old magazines that I want to get rid of. Before I take them to the tip I thought I would just check whether anyone wants them - they are free to collect (I am in Bristol) or I can send them for postage cost only. They are (briefly): Various issues of Waterways World - a few from 1977-1981 and then mainly 1990-92 Canal and Riverboat 1990/91/92 A few random issues of The Butty (K&A Canal Trust) - oldest is November 1967 also 1972, 1974 and some 1991 issues I can be more specific if anyone is looking for a particular issue. Please let me know if you are interested - seems a shame to bin them. E

I'm afraid I don't agree. There have been a number of articles over the past couple of years that I have noticed suggesting boats as an alternative to houses as a cheaper option. Plus there has been a lot of equity which people have used when selling bricks and mortar to go on the water, pushing up the price of newbuilds in particular. I also think the availability of cheap credit allowing more people to buy a boat for weekending has forced the price up of both new and second hand boats. The price of steel is obviously a factor. But if we do head into a global recession which looks increasingly likely, then as demand contracts the price of steel will fall, especially as China has new plants coming on stream soon which will increase supply. We are already seeing job losses in the labour market, as unemployment rises then the cost of labour will also fall. And the cheap credit has already disappeared. I also think we will be seeing a glut of boats on the market as people focus on essentials like paying the mortgage, gas bills etc. Also as house prices fall there will be less equity so for those that want to sell up and live on a boat. For all these reasons I would expect prices of both new and second hand boats to fall significantly over the next two years.