Derek R.

The Byelaws as apply to British Waterways currently, and dated 1954 with amendments to 1976 do not in any part mention Lock Distance Posts. The only mention with regard to vessels approaching locks is much the same as those in the L & LC byelaws: (e) Fill or empty any lock of water for the admission of any vessel to the lock when there is another vessel approaching the lock from the opposite direction and within two hundred yards thereof and the level of the water in the lock is suitable for such approaching vessel to enter the lock. There must be byelaws that appertain to earlier times, so I'll keep looking. Derek

Yes indeed, I did take a look at the 1786 and the others, I think the 1932 was just a two page addendum but all worth looking at. Particularly of note was the law stating all gates and paddles to be closed on leaving a lock. Derek

As Tam says: Nothing like a bit of fact . . etc. Thanks Mike, the bye laws make interesting reading. This is the kind of thing I call definitive knowledge. 100yds is mentioned as being the point at which a vessel had precedent over a lock, but with due regard to the lock being ready for said vessel, and if the said vessel for whom the lock was ready was 200yds from the lock, then that vessel should be given precedence [water saving], also on the L & L that loaded vessels had precedence over empty, and loaded over loaded when descending from the summit. Also no mooring within 20yds of a bridge or works (basically the length of a boat). The L & L bye-laws make no mention of 'posts' as defining points, but 100yds I feel must be about the right distance for those on the Southern G.U. and were possibly erected in the light of conflict that ensued in their absence - though they would not eliminate conflict, much like 'Give Way' signs at road junctions do not eliminate collisions, but indicate what should be complied with. I wonder if the incident Tam quoted as 10yds, was in fact the distance from the lock that the accident/collision occurred, rather than the actual distance the post was from the lock. Though in truth it is of little consequence in the discussion. Interesting stuff. I have BW passing the enquiry from one person to another just now, think I'll take another look at their Bye-laws. Insurances and compensation culture is a very modern device instilled in our younger generations to the extent that such things are a necessary fact of life. Insurance is only 'necessary' (disregarding compulsory legal requirements for the moment) when the person responsible for artefacts possessions or goods cannot find within their wherewithal sufficient funds to replace said items artefacts etc. that they are responsible for in the event of them being damaged, destroyed or otherwise lost. Basically - if you need to insure it - you cannot afford it. Otherwise, insurance (your radio breaking down, against going bald, cat being cooked in the microwave etc.) merely breeds carelessness and contempt but makes insurance companies exceedingly wealthy. But that's another bucket of worms. PS I was refused insurance against baldness. Derek

Let me guess - nothing fell?

Can't believe this was 25yrs ago - Yarmouth's 'Firewood cratch'. 'Pagans Yule - OK'. JC wasn't born in December, but so strong was the celebration of the returning Sun around the 25th, that the upstart Christian religion used it to their benefit. Think it was Prince Albert the Prince Consort who introduced the Germanic custom of trees and decoration. We like trees too, cut split and stacked to dry, ready for the stove . . Bah - Humbug! This was a cold one - Cotton line like concrete, ice five inches thick. That fender did us well - made by Joe Bridge in Skipton.

Then let the VOA come and reside on your jetty for a night - Not on a boat moored against the jetty - but the jetty, without a bed, without a roof, without a table. Ask him how he liked the 'residence' the next morning. He's up to no good. Many years ago I lived on a mobile home site. We paid ground rent to the site owner and in that ground rent was a contribution to the rates the Council charged the site owner for the whole plot of land the site covered. Then one day we all had letters addressed to the individual mobile home owners from the Council that from such and such month and thereafter, rates would be charged to the individual owners on their plots, to the tune of around eight pounds a month (1970ish). Our former ground rent never itemised the rate contribution, but we discovered it was 20p a week, so we go from 86p a month to £8. We were not happy bunnies. So we apply to the site owner for a bit of slack in reducing our contribution to his rates now that we were paying direct. "Not on your life" says he, because in re-evaluating the site for individual rates, they also re-evaluated the remaining area of the site that made up the road into it, the few garages, the sewage plant, shop - at the same rateable figure as he had been charged before for the whole site! The only Council service we received directly, was the dustman. No street lighting, no sewage, no water, no road sweeping - all done 'in-house' for which we paid the site owner, and now (then) the Council as well. They're up to no good, and on a dodgy footing by the sound of it. Derek

Yes, they do look 1930's. Still out on that one and working on it. Horse drawn barges were used by holiday craft in the 1970's - see Antarmikes thread HERE. Before that, horses were still used to haul Esparto Grass up from Brentford in lighters to Dickinsons at Croxley, I think until the early sixties but would have to investigate. One who led such horses along with his Father still lives at Cassio. But long distance boating with horses would have slipped away long before that. Only the likes of Rose and Joe Skinner stayed true to their Animals on the Oxford, and they stopped when Dolly (I think their Mule was called Dolly) 'took a look' and caught pneumonia and died. They were never anything to do with tying up. People will argue more, when they know less. Finding out is what education is about. I'm going to find out what that magnet does to my pacemaker. Bet that's loosened your bladder . . . Derek

It has only been assumed there is a difference of ten times. Tam's quotation of an incident stating 10yds I believe has to be incorrect - it's 30ft for heavens sake, less than half a boats length! Surely a misprint in someone's reporting. 100yds is more the mark, as can be seen in the picture with the big 'S' on. With regard to age, it must also be noted that Tam's report of the Trent & Mersey incident was dated 1840, long before motors. Though the concrete Southern G.U. posts I have yet to obtain more information on. A whip crack, can be heard a remarkably long way away, as it can be likened to a pistol shot. Further, if such whips are shown in museums and in contemporary pictures (albeit one famous one - not everyone had their photo's taken back then), and bearing in mind the unwanted reactions from a whip being laid upon a horse whilst towing, then we must conclude their use was as an audible warning device; for distance; for blind bridgeholes; and for fog. The Railway horn, and possibly any other kind of horn was probably not practical for 'sounding', but a whip, far easier to carry by those leading a horse than any form of horn - and familiar throughout the land from the days of stage coaches - would have been a natural choice. It is easy to have a mindset of the twentieth century when you are born in it. Stretch the imagination - no trains, no horseless carriages, few tarmac'd roads. Dust or mud, slower pace of life, and comparatively quiet out amongst the fields. Derek

This may be a common occurrence. Ian, when living at Widewater, had the same problem - water through the walls - only there, the floor level with the lockside contained the bedrooms. His Kitchen and living room were below, and the ones that got the water feature. To sign leaving a lock empty may also mean the bottom gates leak worse than the top. I believe they are quite good at painting and strimming - the latter ending up on the sides of boats. Derek. Ooops - slipping away from the topic here!

Good to hear. They did mine too, I ordered the Daimler, and they turned up with a Morris Oxford complete with brown trim around the wheel arches. Didn't like to make a fuss, and Dad didn't say anything. Service is only as good as the people who arrange and deliver it. But general policies can affect that greatly. Derek

Those Police were overstepping the mark, they were out of order. City of London Police are renown for it. In addition to the above evidence of Police State: Minding his own business 1 Minding his own business 2 (After the memo from Trotter, and he's British Transport Police, not the City or the Met.) Old Holborn (Contains some offensive language) It was in April of this year that I became more inquisitive about Police and political activities against the population at large after witnessing on TV the beating of protesters outside the Bank of England, and later bumping into one locally who gave me a run down on her experience at the scene. She gave me some links, and a door opened. What I discovered in the ensuing two weeks of internet indulgence woke me up. It took that long, and is ongoing. Not many have the time. The number of websites that are available showing news contrary to that of the mainstream media is astonishing. Are they all conspiring to bring government down - or are they showing what is really happening? The more recent reporting of such bully boy tactics by officers on the ground in the mainstream media as shown with the Guardian incident outside the Gherkin, clearly brings to light that things are not as they should be. We have chosen boats as a common denominator and a love of canals, their history, the wildlife upon and around them to focus on in an ever increasing world of insanity - it's an antidote to life in a modern world. But there comes a time when even our cherished lifestyles come under attack, there are times when we have to step away from the cut, and perforce are engaged in that other place. The natural reaction of many when faced with encumbering regulations, is to protest. And if writing to our MP brings little success, we write to a paper or forum such as this and thousands like it. This then gives us a valve with which to release pent up frustration at what might appear impotent actions, but all too often there begins petty infighting and argument which divert, dilute, and destroy. However, if a cause is one with a common heart, a protest on the streets will be mooted. Such are the powers of government now, that such protests are severely limited in location, and heavily countered with baton wielding officers. Peaceful demonstrators are goaded into reactions - and there are many who will react after all other avenues have been exhausted and they are herded like cattle. This gives exactly the reason for severe treatment as dished out nearby the Bank. If the only way in which the population at large can have their attention drawn to such injustices is through the internet - then prepare for curtailment and limitation of the internet. Cue – Darling's tax on broadband. The internet for many has become Prince Charming's kiss. Watch him be charged for his awakenings as new taxes are introduced for 'freedom of speech' - WANTED - Prince Charming - an ENEMY of THE STATE. I'm probably breaching some Act as I write. A 62yr old wanting to mind his own business and mess about on his boat. No matter what you engage in, you will be affected. If you fear these people, they will have total control over you. What can you do? Spread the word, make more people aware, but make them smile too. Here's a heart warming story, contrived and acted of course, but the message is powerful 'Validation' It's a little corny, but it's a love story, and we need more love in the world. It might just take 16 minutes of you life, but it might make a difference: Derek

Ah! Right, IMG code - image code. Assuming you have opened an account with photobucket or one of the other free picture hosting sites, and you have 'uploaded' your photos from your file bank, each picture in the PB account will have beneath it four lines of coding; Email & IM; Direct link; HTML; and IMG. (Generally speaking, forums that allow image posting like images at or around 100kb. Some images can go to 2MB, and they really ought to be reduced - many ways of achieving that, some complicated, some easy - usually with free downloadable software.) By right clicking on the line of code in the IMG box, it will either copy the code automatically onto your clipboard, or you will get a drop down menu in which you need so select 'copy'. Then in your reply window in CWDF, right click, and select 'paste'. You will not see your picture in the CWDF window atthat point, instead you will see the long line of file code. Add whatever text you want above or below, then click 'Preview' NOW you will see your text AND picture as you have selected. It must be remembered that any image you place in CWDF will remain there ONLY if you leave the image on the web hosts page. If you delete an image from your web host account, all images posted in such a forum as this will no longer be visible. Hope that helps. Give a shout if stuck. Derek PS To give an idea of image size, the black and white I posted of Bert is 21kb 649px by 440px Jpeg image (most are, TIFF are huge)

It's the IMG code you need to copy, paste in the reply window, and click preview to check it's as you want it. Derek

Bert and Elsa. Early eighties to mid nineties. This in '87. Bert 1981 Bert came first, he was from Battersea, and Elsa a couple of years later from RSPCA.

Aah! But in seeking a saviour, you are already lost. We will not be rescued, as we are the rescuers. 'V' may have been the catalyst, but it was the actions of collective individuals that brought the change. Derek

Lewis is correct. Civil liberties, such as we understand them (which is precious little - ask any man in the street) have been eroded away bit by bit over the years with pieces of legislation discussed in Parliament which have gone into the statute books one after the other with the majority knowing nothing about them. What is read, listened to and watched through the mainstream media is barely the tip of the iceberg, and selected tips at that - they write, speak, and show what sells and gets ratings. You are deceived. You are being conspired against. It is not a theory. Who amongst us, and there are many here who will remember, if they were suddenly transported from 1959 to 2009 would recognise our streets and our Bobbies? The Police force we have today resemble combatants in their stab vests, ankle boots, baseball caps and automatic weapons. Always in twos, they are trained and drawn into suspecting everyone for anything as everyone has something to hide - even if it's a covering of clothing. Those coppers lurking around Grosvenor Square, and around Norwich Street, Holborn, might look like they are ready to tackle so called terrorists with their slashed peaks and brandishing weapons. But in truth they are more likely placed to keep the indigenous population from feeling they have a right to protest. We are the threat, the response is force, the intent is fear. Of all the Worlds CCTV cameras, 10% are watching you and I. Feel safe? Or just watched? ID cards? I don't need one to know who I am, and in the event of me being found unconcious, my wallet will reveal next of kin. ID cards are only of any use to organisations who want you to be accountable for every step you take, because this is no longer a free country in which you may wander, walk in a small group, or simply take a picture of a building. We are not heading for a Police State, we are in one. But there are limitations that prevent police officers (and there is a technical difference between an Officer, and a Constable though this applies to both) in as much as if you are stopped, they have no right to demand anything of you unless you have been seen to breach the peace, or caused harm to any person. If they cannot show you have breached the peace, then simply ask if you are free to go. The police are at the forefront of political manhandling, they are the dogsbodies for Parliament, the legislative interface with you and I, and they no more like it than we do. But we cannot be rude, impolite, abusive to them in any way, despite the fact that they are often given instructions which are little more than bluff to get you to hand over to them exactly what they need to take you into custody. Be courteous, recognise their contact with you, ask why you have been detained, and if they continue with other questions in a friendly chatty way - beware, it's a trick, repeat your first question - you are not obliged to give them anything, not even your name. If they cannot give reason why you have been detained (stopped), then repeat the second question - Am I free to go? If you have done nothing wrong, they can do nothing more. You have rights, and they will push their line of questioning to get you to drop those rights - don't do it. There is a very particular way in conducting your contact with the Police, and it is vital to understand this - one of the links below is to a set of short videos on exactly this. Listen to the guy, ignore what you see, but listen. The world in which we live today is not the one we were brought up in, but it's the one that has been designed for us without our consent. ID cards will change all that which is why government want them. Once you have been forced to BUY one, you will be duty bound to not only keep all information on it up to date and supply any extra as and when wanted, but present it on demand. It's nothing to do with anti-terrorism, it's everything to do with control of the popuation at large. It is WE who are the biggest threat to our government, as we slowly and collectively are discovering what it is they are up to. MP's expenses? That's nothing! Paranoia? No, I'm not paranoid, nor is there any need to be. But we do need to be aware of our rights, and the vast majority are not. Some informative links: No to ID; UK Column listen to Brian Gerrish; Lawful Rebellion; International Banking; The Freeman Concept and much more; Common Purpose; Freedom, A book; Dealing with the Police don't be put off by the mask. Perhaps many will ignore these links, can't be bothered. Too much to read. That is exactly why we are in the situation we are in today - apathy. Can't be bothered. Derek

Generally horses would be managed by word of mouth alone or the simple presence of someone walking alongside or behind, but the sound of the whip could assist in getting some recalcitrant beasts to pick up and get on. It would be unusual for a whip to be used 'on' a horse, although there probably were one or two blokes that might. Lay a whip on a horse and the sudden reactive movement would likely cause more problems than they solved, so it was used for the sound it made. Having said that, you'll be hard pushed to find any people leading horses nor steering visibly carrying or having a whip to hand, though they might be under a coat. Motor boating saw their demise I fancy, as no motor steerer is going to hear a whip crack! Derek That's the one! Didn't know you could still buy them. Bit of paint to colour 'em and you have an attractive useful tool. Derek

That's right, for the same reason Travellers Vardo's (living vans) in the UK had their stoves on the left as you entered from the front, as the chimney was less likely to catch on overhanging branches from the roadside. Derek

They carried them to use as an audible warning of approach, a good 'crack' could be heard easily at 100yds. Yes, there are examples in museums and period photographs of Ladies with them. They were also used to announce their approach to blind bends and bridge 'oles, as well as in fog. (remember fog?) Copyrights to the following authors: From 'Canal Arts & Crafts' by Avril Lansdell, Shire book, ISBN 0-7478-0586-5 'Canal Recollections' By Julian Holland, ISBN 1-85585-396-5 A studio shot C1910. 'The Narrow Boat Book' by Tom Chaplin, ISBN 0-905483-05-7 The boat is 'Chiltern'. In case you were wondering, the steerer of Chiltern is unlikely to have carried or used a whip to warn of his approach. He might have used a mouth horn, or electric horn. A mouth horn is one you blow through with your mouth. An electric one is where it is connected to an electrical circuit and you press a button to complete the circuit. It makes a noise by magnets vibrating a diaphragm, though some operate compressors that blow air through a trumpet.

Well, here's an on topic subject! Christmas without Supermarkets!

I acknowledge you words Tam, and if you've been told that by a lock keeper in the fifties - fair enough. I've seen many alongside the towpath since we came afloat in '80 (new boy), but thought that Jim Shead's 15 - 20yds was way out. But I'm on the bank right now and can't just nip out and have a look, and memory plays tricks. It just 'feels' wrong that a post could be so close to the lock, and be primarily to prevent overtaking. 10yds as recorded and quoted seems a bit ridiculous, and in that particular instance it sounds like matey behind was after blood! With horse boats too!! I'm genuinely curious now to find out when they were placed and what the official reason was - I know, you've already told us! But I've had tales told me before from certain persons for extra effect - sometimes they've been spot on, and sometimes . . . they've been salted. Andrew, they will be nothing to do with tying up specifically, that 'rule' is more like not to tie up within a boats length of a lock, two preferrably. I don't know what DIScord and DISharmony's about, we're just chewin' some fat and working out what animal it once was. Tam knows it's Beef, and my taste buds haven't got used to meat yet. Too much bloody Quorn. I do like cheese to be cheese. Tom Doubting. PS Nice to see you got a website Andrew - I'll be placing an order.

Interesting selection of comments. The Co-op I remember as a lad was a big department store the CWS, and I distinctly remember Mum saying post 1957 (as Wikipedia has reminded me) that it had changed, and not for the better, partly I think because they dispensed with the 'divi'. Still remember her number given at the till for any purchase - double three eight three two three - imprinted in my mind for ever as I was dragged around the shops pre-school! That Co-op has long gone, and they now seem to be as grasping as any 'Victor Value', Oakenshotts' or 'Happy Shopper' subsequently became. Anyone remember Mac Fisheries? That did for our local supermarket in Wood Green High Road, and only a few doors away (urban, densely populated environment). The loser was 'Jolly's', a little shop that was different from all the rest along our 'Golden Mile' in North London, in that instead of queuing up to be served by the one person, you took a wire basket and 'helped yourselves' shock horror! Then queued up to pay at the one till, so still queued! But Mum only bought her tinned and packeted stuff from there, plenty of butchers (sawdust floor) bakers etc. for the rest, and a good Sainsbury's - meat down one side, butter cheese and eggs the other, and a till at the end. But Mac Fisheries changed all that. Then it became Tesco's, and if you wanted tea or coffee, we went into Lyon's Tea house next to the 'Alec' (The Alexander pub) with maybe a cake, or one of their 'Individual Fruit Pies'. You could buy just about anything in Wood Green, if the High Road didn't have it, the little market stalls off Mayes Road would, from boiled sweets and toffee freshly made on the premises, to bicycles and pushchairs being repaired next door I can smell them now. Lace and tablecloths, and the broken biscuit stall (there was one in Berko still in the seventies, bottom of King's Road). Something no-one has mentioned regarding supermarkets - they cater for the mobile - they demand the motorised shopping car(t). In France, new shops are prevented from opening up in villages due to the 'dangers' from vehicle congestion in the village centres, and have to be placed out on the edge. Then in complete contradiction, they shut the streets off for a weekly market! But it works well, though the villages outside of market days are not so community orientated as they once were, and so it is over here. Supermarkets get the thumbs up from Central Government, as they converge people from miles around which enforces two strategies in one swoop; get folk using more petrol (more tax), and ensuring people become reliant on the car for all other commodities. And for the congestion created - we'll charge you, and stick cameras up to take more if you're in a hurry. It's not safety, it's a business. Where have all the corner shops gone - not just the ones that sold food stuffs, but the haberdashers, the fishmongers, and more noticeably - the little hardware shop that sold exactly what you wanted with someone behind the counter who could advise you best how to use it, or perhaps an alternative solution? Not many of them left, they've all been trounced by the DIY supermarket, who employ shelf packers. Only in rare instances will you find a member of staff who knows his onions, and often it's some old boy who is an ex-engineer - redundant from 30 odd years in manufacturing. Supermarkets are for convenience, seldom for quality - Waitrose excepted, but expect to pay for it. Bulk commodity shifters for economy and profit. Cheap 'own' brand food is often lacking in nutrients as it is force grown, watered down, and possibly with loads of 'food miles' added (not to mention DEFRA approved chemical preservatives - be careful what you put in your mouths!). Street markets are nearly always better quality, and quite often cheaper too, it does mean though, you have some leg work to do, and how much easier it is to park without charge in a supermarket car park. Mum would have liked not having to walk the length of Wood Green High Road with her bag (everyone carried bags - and shopped daily - no fridge!) if she could get it all under one roof and out of the rain, (her Co-op was good for that - warm too) but she would have missed the variety, quality, and her purse may well be more quickly emptied as she perused things she did not go out to buy but had to look through to find what she did want. The big plus for the supermarket - place temptation everywhere - and it will sell. And if people begin to gravitate towards the shelves where they know they will find what the NEED, they change the shop around COMPLETELY, move the biscuits to where the deodorants were, and swop the cheeses for baby stuff. Total confusion, everyone complains, but ends up buying stuff they would otherwise not have done. Our local Morrisons did just that - six months ago, and I still have to hunt for what I want. They'll change it again in another year. I have a shop around the corner, run by Eastern gentlemen. There's little choice, small quantities, high prices, and I don't think the gentlemen have had a bath this year. I cycle less than half a mile to Morrisons, and there's a 'Londis' opposite who seems to do well - open all hours. I could cycle into St Albans town, but it's full of building societies, coffee shops, and expensive clothes shops. The thriving street market held three days a week, has taken hits lately, with overzealous traffic wardens, inflated parking charges, and pedestrianisation of some market area with yet another swanky outdoors seating coffee shop - it's St Albans for heaven's sake - not St Tropez - it's cold! Not worth the effort any more - well, save for the Pasty shop, it's worth the trip for that alone, but Gomm's the tool shop has long gone. No more fork handles. You might say we have got what we deserve, but I think we have got what has been planned for. Derek

One of that series: 'Too Many Boats' by Robert Wilson. A Giles cartoon reprinted from the Daily Express, where a bunch of Bowler hatted ministry men are daubing Grey and Buff paint over the cabin. One is reading from a broadsheet stating 'Order to remove all signs of decoration from barges'. On the tail end of the lorry carrying their paint is scratched: 'Ministry of Utter Gloom'. The Tory colour related to Blue and Gold, Azure Blue 104, and Golden Yellow 356 in the BS 381C series. There were variations however particularly on the blue. The lurid green was I believe an attempt at 'blending in' with the 'green' surroundings and projecting such attitudes in a 'Green' world. A naive thought. The green is disappearing thankfully. Wet behind the ears always springs to my mind at the mention of 'green'. Derek

GPS Global Positioning System Seriously, you're all 'aving a laugh! DIS = Distance one post each side of a lock, equidistant from the lock. First boat to reach it has priority over the lock, and a whip crack was the determining factor. Of course there was cheating, and lots of punch-ups. Overtaking? Never heard that one anywhere, though confess it might have been an 'added' reason. You'd be pretty daft to try it, though Buffalo was apt to, and got stuck in a lock entrance with Pheonix in doing so September 1896. (Buffalo - steam tug 8' wide, Pheonix FMC steamer 7' wide - scroll down to the Millner Letters HERE). Before the posts got knocked about, lost, or buried in weeds, boatmen and women knew exactly where they were, what they were for, and didn't need to read any lettering. Can't believe there are three pages of this! PS Boats are only driven on the BCN, and where GPS meant 'Gerroutheblurryroad!' (On a polite day)