magpie patrick

while I would prefer them to work properly, please don't encourage BW to get rid of handspike gear they've already stripped the L&L of it's prize exhibits, Health and Safety mean that gear operated while standing on the gates is on the way out...

That might be what some people would like the rules to be, but it isn't what they actually are Some services are provided by the state and are free to all, these include roads (so long as you aren't driving a motor vehicle) canal towpaths, parks etc. There is no link in these between whether you pay any tax at all and whether you can use them, even an American Tourist can use these. Some services are provided exclusively to those who have a valid residence in an area, rubbish collection being the obvious one. Mr CJ, I'm pleased you are allowed to be a member of a library in an area you neither live nor work, but I am only able to be a member in either Bath (Live) or Bristol (Work) I could probably try it on in any town where Peter Brett Associates have an office actually but you get the picture. A service only for those who are eligible to pay the tax. The first set are all that is avaialble to a visitor to the area, and are in no way related to whether that visitor pays tax anywhere else, unless you wish to argue that a visitor from the Gobi desert pays all the taxes the Mongolian Government ask on his yurt, and that therefore this visitor too is also under a reciprocal arrangement

I'd say that, much as Aldersley and the Bratch will bear Repetition, if you haven't done the Stourbridge route go that way. It's always a dilemma advising people who've done neither! Shame to hear that Windmill End has had problems as it's a great place to stop, one of a few places where I've stopped for a whole day (2 nights). Even if you don't stop overnight, back into the Boshboil Arm, have a walk round the now discontinuous old loop and up to Cobbs Engine House. As this route is shorter you should have time to divert up to Hawne Basin, Gosty Hill tunnel is in stark comparison to Netherton! Also, go down the Stourbridge Arm, and if you like your real ale, borrow a copy of the Good Beer Guide as Strourbridge has some cracking real ale pubs Other diversions that are a bit of a hoot are up to Titford Pools (if it's open) and doing a loop the loop over and under Tividale Aqueduct

Sank on the Weaver?

I'm going to make what I think may well be my final entry here, for those who wonder why, see the note I left in the unStable Bar a few days ago, I have other things to do. Three instances from my own personal knowledge where a CCer would not have access to services. My in laws live in Dorset (okay hypothetical as a CCer can't get to Dorset by boat!) Ma in law is diabled, paralysed on her left side, and has a variety of support, home visits to get her in and out of bed, and one day a week at a day centre to give dad in law a break. To get this service you have to resident at a recognised address in Dorset. A friend of mine lost his father recently, by coincidence the father too lived in Dorset. Towards the end he became to frail to live at home and he was placed in a care home. My friend lives on the Surrey/Hants border and would have liked to move hid Dad closer to home. This was very difficult because his dad's last address had been in Dorset. The move never happened Not directly related to council tax as CT doesn't fund this last one, but related in that you have to be resident in a property liable for CT. Royal United Hospital (RUH) in Bath have a fertility clinic, and you can only receive treatment (as we are doing now) if you are resident at a recognised address in the Avon and Wilts Primary Care Trust area. This applies to IVF even if you are paying for it because you are only paying for the treatment not the facilities it takes place in. Also, if you are BANES CT payer you get one free cycle of IVF whereas if you are a Wiltshire one you get three cycles because the Wiltshire bit provides more funding. It may be different elsewhere, but on the basis that the above are all legal that's three specific instances of fairly major services not available to a CCer

Not me because I don't but then, perhaps I should just look after myself rather than standing up for others who don't live like me... it's what you and AlanH seem to think I should do, how dare I stand up for people who don't pay council tax when I do

One point you have point blank refused to answer local taxation (which is what it all is) is local people paying for local services, SOME of which are available to non-locals... a genuine CCer (and you had a jab at Cotswoldman so don't say you aren't targeting them) IS NOT LOCAL... And I'm sorry to disappoint you, but someone not officially resident, or who can't give a valid address, will have the mother and father of all jobs getting anything out of social services education is a bit different as most local authorities look at the need to protect the child ahead of the need for them to be registered locally, but a CCer not paying council tax will come at the bottom of the queue for school places. It was an adult insult, expressing what I genuinely think of your stance

okay, it should work, but I'm not sure that "laps round Braunston" is the best thing to do... take the corners slow...

Okay, I'm loser.... errrm, not according to the majority of this forum, I've just pointed out that your argument is baseless and selfishness is your motive.... There is NO comparison between a genuine CCer and someone who lives in a house. You are pursuing an agenda against CCers, but not, for example against students. You have aldso made comments that suggest that it is not valid for someone with money to defend those with less. You have picked on a deliberate statement of my view of you (and believe me I'd toned it down) and avoided answereing the many valid points that Natalie, Carl and I make. It is obvious that Natalie has some knowledge of public finances, my job involves degree level knowledge of socio economics, and macro and micro economics, and the operations of public taxation and demographics, Yours seems to be based on belief alone.

Okay, in the past cars have been carried on narrow boats, but generally IN the hold not ON it. Even with a small car you are putting a lot of extra weight above the waterline, and be aware the moment the first wheel lands on deck the boat will heel. On a much bigger scale, wheeling large loads onto seagoing barges has the same problem. If your serious, first try gradually putting loads on up to a tonne (20 gallon drums, one at a time) and seeing how the boat responds, otherwise you risk boat on it's side and car in the cut

the house is in the same place year round Cotswoldman has his home in Stourport for a week As to your previous argument on connection fees, if they are abolished the money has to be found from somewhere, all other fees would go up, so the CCer would pay a contribution, it's just your grasp of macro economics and socio economics is either hopeless or you haven't really thought this through I go back to the Steve Knightly statement from you. He isn't that well off, I'm guessing that if you include future earnings and existing capital I may be better off than he is, but it was the implication that a well off man singing about rural deprivation wasn't to be taken seriously that showed you for what you are. Insult time, you are a selfish git who envies other people paying less than you, even though they get less out of the system than is available to you, it isn't that dramatic a leap from where you are to "I don't have kids, why should I pay for schools". Watch the slope your standing on, it's slippery

Ah yes, just hadn't realised it was him Okay Alan, one last time on one specific instance, Cotswoldman at Stourport. Council Tax is a tax to fund a local authority, paid by those who live within it's area. I pay BANES, yet most weeks I use Bristol City Council Facilities, I Often Use Reading Council facilities, sometime Taunton Deane, Stroud District and City of Gloucester, because I visit these places, but I pay no tax there. Cotswold Man does not live in Stourport, he happens to be visiting it. He can use PUBLIC facilities that happen to be paid for by the council, specifically he is using the footway of the highway. The adopted highway is "maintainable at the public expense". It is often, but not always, paid for by the local authority. Cotswold Man can not borrow a book from the library, he can not send a child to school, he would have a mountain to climb if he needed social services, in many respects he is like a tourist in any other town, he just happens to be a permanent tourist. You, like me, either choose not to use a number of facilities and services, or have no need of them. Cotswold Man CAN NOT use them.

He's done it before then?

The bike was a good way of getting to the venue when I was underage but I only used the towpath as part of the route...

you really are getting ridiculous now, poor bloke will have been there a week and you presumably want him to pay council tax pro-rata so he can use the pavement. Okay. we'll put turnstiles at the entrance to town shall we? and £515 in three days is some going, I doubt many residents of Stourport have paid that much even if you include bills and mortgage, which of course the town doesn't see. there are around 8500 hours in a year, perhaps we should all be fitted with pay as you go meters adjusted to the local council tax rate...

You had me worried there, but I see that they actually mean Upper Mills Bridge, which is now approved. Stonehouse Swing Bridge still has one or two "issues"

even spraying deep heat on it would stop him in his tracks I'd have thought...

Is this included in boat running costs or an extra?

I think he's on his own Phylis... and if he's anything like me there'll be scotch on board the boat as well (but he may not have bought that in Stourport)

I have made my mind up that the anomalies of the system result in some people paying less but no system is perfect and the numbers involved are too few to worry about, particularly as I don't "do" envy. What I'm trying to do is show you that your arguments are basically self centred and envious. Council Tax is a way of providing funding to councils, there are a variety of demographic issues that skew what councils get and how much they have to provide. A number of councils are retirement destinations and have a very high claim on their social services. Under your "second homes shouldn't pay council tax" the problem is (and it is real) that councils lose money when a home changes function. In the case of Bath, where I live, every house that goes to student let costs the council over £1000 in revenue, in many cases it is bought by rich parents as a place for their beloved offspring and mates, as an "investment" and prices a family out. In our terrace (11 houses) 6 are owner occupied, 3 by women who will see out their days there, sadly in the next few years probably. Unless the trend reverses those three will become student lets. At least students contribute to the economy of Bath, and it is a tad too expensive for holiday homes. But no CT on holiday homes means that someone who can outbid a local also then has lower costs, it provides a perverse incentive for homes to become holiday homes. All very well for the rich man who has his country pad, but what about the family who work in the countryside. In many areas you have the daft situation that agricultural workers commute to the countryside from the town. And it isn't just "honeypots" you can not classify the whole of the lake district and much of north Wales as a "honeypot". There are instances where housing is either ridiculously cheap or even in dereliction, parts of the south wales valleys and the north east of england, as you say because there are no jobs there, but it's not just that, they are unattractive for tourism as well. On the other side of the coin, unemployment in Somerset at one point was around 1%, so what were all those holiday homes doing then, soaking up derelict properties? Probably not. Like I say, in Bath, 20,000 students not paying council tax, probably 100 boats (and a number of them move at least as far as Wiltshire from time to time!), so why should the boats be a problem, and the students not?

It is clear that you have a closed mind on the issue... There is little point in debating with people who have made their minds up In many villages around Somerset and Wiltshire, houses are not affordable for those on local incomes, being taken by those with far more money, often as second homes for Londoners In the lake district, the average local wage is one tenth the average local house price, because that delightful two bedroom cottage is an ideal holiday home as well as the right size for a local family In having a boat, I am not depriving someone else of a home, in many instances those who have second homes are forcing house prices out of reach of locals. If you chossse to beleive that's not true that's up to you.. I take it from your comment "that well know pauper" that people with money shouldn't stand up for people who haven't any money

Ooooh Ooooh, can we get into Maslow's hierarchy of needs please! No of course I don't, I don't NEED at two bedroom terrace house in Bath either, Val and I could live in in a 1 bedroom house in Radstock, or perhaps a tee pee near Glastonbury. However, my house and my boat have different functions, my house is a roof over my family's head, for me, Val, three cats and hopefully, one day, children. It houses our belongings and needs to be conveniently placed for the facilities we use and for our employment. Val works in Radstock and drives to work, I work in Bristol and take the train. Our boat is for weekends, for longer holidays, and is primarily used as a boat for cruising. The house doesn't make a good job of going up the canal, it doesn't float, and won't fit through the locks and bridges. So we have a boat. I do accept we could hire, and as the house and family get more expensive and demanding, we may well go to that. Of course, someone could live on our boat, but with 25,000 boats already on the waters, and more being built, it is unlikely that there is a family in social housing because we are greedy enough to have a boat. Also, it is moored in a marina with only the most basic facilities, so there are no shops and pubs going without trade because the boats empty. A second home is not so much greed as depriving someone else of a home (although not in all cases, some are built for holidays, and even grouped together in holiday villages) and a village of a resident, to Quote Steve Knightly's Country Life The Red Brick Cottage where I was born is the empty shell of a holiday home Most of the year there's no one there The village is dead and they don't care Now we live on the edge of town haven't been back since the pub closed down One man's family pays the price for another man's vision of country life.

well Sod you too I actually don't use anything in Bath that a visitor to the city can't use except refuse and recycling collection. I have access to facilities, as Natalie has pointed out, that a non-resident non CC payer does not, social services, education etc. I suppose when I use the council tip I am doing so as a CT payer, but they don't check and nor do several other places (our recyclables have ended up in Cardiff's site on occassion because I'm going to Cardiff anyway). The difference between my stand point and yours is that I've better things to worry about than whether everyone else is paying "their" share, and I'm not eaten up with envy even though I have a house that I pay council tax on and a boat I pay moorings for. No system is perfect, and I've better things to do with my days on earth than go off on one about an "anomaly" that affects very few people as a proportion of the whole population. I'd say Bath has more foreign tourists in a year than there are boat dwellers not paying council tax across the whole of the UK, it also has around 20,000 students not paying council tax. And how many boat dwellers don't pay it? In Bath, 100 at most.

Really? So why does my council tax state that the property is in band ? (C I think) if it's not based on the value of the property? It IS a property tax, the question is who is liable to pay it Students don't pay it BTW, which must hit Bath quite hard whether the tenant or the landlord pays it is down to the landlord. Where I used to live, my flat was self contained so I paid it diect, but the rest of the house had six different tenants in a shared property, so the landlord (who was also my landlord) paid CT and included it in (i.e. added it onto) the rent. And to which authority should a CCer pay council tax?