howardang

Well done, Peter, you just did! Howard

As you may remember my wife and I were shareholders in Ownerships like yourselves, and like many others we certainly remember the feeling of injustice in being classed as a commercial operation. We were very grateful for your efforts in fighting our corner with BW/CRT to change the rules, and in winning an agreement that when all shares in a boat were totally owned by the owners with no shares being owned by a management company, then those boats were treated in exactly the same way as any other privately owned boat, which was indeed, and meant that we were able to take advantage of a fairer licence fee, rather than being treated as a commercial operation and charged at a higher rate. . We employed Ownerships to do the day to day operational management until a few years later when they ceased trading, at which time we decided in both our boats, to form owners syndicates and run them in all aspects by the owners. In our case and in many other shared ownership boats, this arrangement has worked very well and in our case went on until we decided to give boating a break a couple of years ago. I think it is fair to say that over 100 hundred shared boats are run under this basis very satisfactorily. Certainly, my wife and I had many years under this system and enjoyed our involvement and satisfaction in being totally responsible with the rest of the syndicate for looking after our boat. Howard

I remember the discussions about commercial and private schemes very well having been deeply involved. Of course the OP could do what you suggest but if I was a potential purchaser of a share I would hope that it was run properly and above board. Your advice seems to lean towards bending the rules and I would not wish to buy into such a scheme. Howard

I was an owner in two of these self managed scheme after Ownerships went belly up and both schemes worked very well. In your scheme it seems to be a hybrid between a syndicate run scheme and a managed shame and I am not sure how CRT or an insurance company would view it. I for one would not like to join such a scheme where you regard yourself as a principal owner and dictate repairs etc. My suggestion would be to put the scheme to CRT in the first instance to get their views before going any further. Howard

Agreed, and if you decide to take this advice, please make sure that when sizing up suitable moorings you take into account the need for occasional drydocking, repairs/alterations and if your chosen new location is able to offer you some peace of mind with regard to mooring longevity, i.e. can you rely on being able to stay there long term. Good luck in your search. Howard

In my humble opinion I think you more than qualify for the expert category!🤙 Howard

Yes, I think I can safely say similar having been here on and off for 19 years. However, I do detect a subtle change over the years in that in earlier times there was less of the dogmatic responses by some "experts" with more tolerance generally towards newcomers with genuine questions. Howard

Or maybe I think you meant " I know those who think they are experts." It all depends on where their field of expertise lies, and some will give the impression that they are expert and knowledgeable in all subjects. Sometimes a pinch of salt is called for, which is difficult for the newcomer who may take all advice given as gospel. That, of course, can be the issue with forums such as this one. Howard

FWIW Unpowered barges in a port scenario loading or unloading ships have very often been called Dumb Barges. Howard

Not the Welland Canal I know. Howard

If that is the case they spelt it wrong - the correct spelling is Oakum. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakum Howard

Quite right. I wasn’t for one second suggesting that for canal boats but rather mentioning it for context and possible mild interest for some people. When I was a cadet I spent many happy hours in fresh water tanks scraping and then cement washing tanks and I’m sure everyone is pleased that there are better ways of doing this essential maintenance which is required by law each year. Howard

There is nothing too problematical about integral tanks as long as they are coated properly and maintained regularly. When i first went to sea and for many years after, most ships had integral fresh water tanks which were cement washed every year. rRegarding concrete boats, there have been many examples over the years, barges, yachts and other floating structures. If they are constructed properly, there is nothing wrong with their method of construction. However, over the years I have come across a number of sea going yachts which have been built using cement which have started to corrode internally due to trying to use this method on the cheap, and the cost for the repairs is horrendous, and sometimes not worth doing which may have given this method of construction a bad name. It is often the case that the reinforcing bars that are corroding rather than the cement which is failing. Howard

It doesn't appeal to me for a couple of reasons in my view. 1 - once in position you have no way of checking whether ant rusting is taking place and if for any reason the area where the concrete is gets wet you won't be able to check that it hasn't found its way underneath. Boats can and do flex, and although it may appear to be a perfect sea, over time ot may move slightly allowing water ingress. 2 - If ever you need to remove some or all of the ballast to change the trim of the boat or if you add weighty items which may lead to a need to redistribute ballast it will be a major job to remove. In my view it is a quick way of adding ballast but for the reasons above it may be a problem in later years after purchase. Howard

The opposite is useful to know but takes a modicum of courage! Some working barges in the North used to use squat to squeeze under low bridges by putting on the power on the approach to what would otherwise be impassible to pass. The stern would squat sufficiently to allow them wriggle through before slowing down again once clear. In fact I think that still happens occasionally but you need nerves of steel!😀 Howard

I once remember being at a meeting with BW when a similar point about "tow path" improvement was raised. The query came from someone connected with (I think) the Horse Boating Society, about the towpath and whether it was suitable for horses. The response from the BW representative was along the lines that the towpath is not meant for horses and that horses shouldn't shouldn't be using the towpath - a comment which raised a lot of eyebrows and spluttering among those present! At least we had ended up with a much better surface for bicycles. Howard

Squat is a very well known phenomenon in ship handling and of course happens to a lesser extend with smaller craft such as canal boats especially in shallow water. . It may be of interest that a few years ago QE2 was cruising off the East Coast of the States with a pilot on board who decided to save time by crossing over a fairly shallow patch near Martha's Vineyard. During the port approach she experienced a noticeable vibration. and it was suspected that she may have touched bottom. This led to an unplanned drydocking in New York and it was found that the ships bottom over a large extent of the hull was extensively damaged with the repairs costing a very large sum. On calculation it was found that she had squatted around six feet or so - a very costly event. This Wikipedia article describes the event. In more detail. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squat_effect Howard

One other thing I forgot to mention is Squat which is the increase in aft draught when speed is increased and this increase in draught can mean the difference in touching the bottom or not. Squat effect is more noticeable in shallow water and that is why you may need to reduce speed in such condition. Howard

I am often surprised when some people speak about draught and yet have never checked that the figure they were given when they purchased is l accurate. In some. In some shallower waterways a difference of few of inches can be important if you want to avoid running aground. Trim and fuel/water tanks full or empty can all affect the draught not to mention bags of coal on the roof, and other unaccounted weight such as additional internal wood paned etc. A boats draught can, and does, vary depending on all these factors so boaters should at least be aware of this fact rather than always working of the same draught without mentally allowing for any changes. Howard

It might be helpful if you suggested what work is contemplated and your approximate present location. Size of boat may also he useful. Howard