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Up-Side-Down

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Posts posted by Up-Side-Down

  1. Solar Panel solely for charging batteries off grid.

    in Boat Equipment

    Posted

    3 hours ago, IanD said:

    Tilting does give more output -- about 15% in summer, more in winter (but with much less output anyway) -- assuming you have them south-facing, which means the boat has to be moored east-west (most boat panels only tilt sideways) -- if the boat is moored north-south tilting does nothing.

     

    Like everything with boats, it's all a compromise as you say, there's no one "right" answer... 😉 

    Almost exactly half that from my trials to date, Ian: 7.4% improvement to be precise!

  3. Canal book recommendation

    in General Boating

    Posted

    On 20/06/2024 at 11:41, IanD said:

    I just finished reading Tom Kitching's new book "Where There's Brass" about his travels on Spey to and through London, and it's one of the best books I've read in a long time -- highly recommended 🙂 

     

    http://www.tomkitching.co.uk/wheres-theres-brass/

     

    Also got his Bolinder T-shirt as a birthday present... 😉 

     

     

    I'll enthusiastically second this as a great read. The opportunity to purchase the Bolinder T shirts is an excellent piece of 'lateral marketing' and a stroke of genius, coming as they do in both black and white.

    • Greenie 1

  8. Immersion heater element - Screwfix Vs Swindlers

    in Boat Equipment

    Posted

    On 31/05/2024 at 18:45, Hoorayforboobies said:

    @nicknorman - Much appreciated!

    @jonesthenuke - noted, thanks!

    @Jen-in-Wellies Thanks, I've added some more specs. I've seen you comment on almost everything I've seen! What a font of knowledge - Much appreciated!

     

    Apologies all - Here's some more specs!

     

    We're CC'ers so no shore power at all.
    560ah Lihtium Phos

    800w solar

    Lister Sr2 12/12-30 dc-dc charger (Gets hot whilst chucking in 30a though - around 70c)

    A127 type alternator

     



     

    A (Welsh) couple of thoughts:

     

    i) 70 deg C isn't very hot by alternator standards.

    ii) Received wisdom suggests that the output of a B2B should never exceed 50% of alternator output. An A127 is 57A IIRC.

    iii) It should be fairly easy to arrange a load dump of surplus leccy to your immersion heater as your batteries approach 95% SoC. The precise mechanism will depend on your set up but the relay outputs from say a Victron Cerbo GX make this very easy.

    iv) Nicknorman makes a very valid point about the MC-sourced immersion accommodating high output temperatures, whether that be from engine cooling, or in my case, the thermostat being wound wide open to accommodate a solar PV load dump. Despite being able (in theory) to take 95 deg C temps in its stride, I'm still having to manually reset mine before the cooler winter operating temperatures generated by my Dickinson! So don't be caught out thinking that it has gone U/S (as I did first time round!). It probably just needs a manual reset ... so keep the instructions that tells you how!

     

     

     

  9. New boat builder - lots of questions

    in New to Boating?

    Posted

    5 hours ago, Ed Earl said:

    Hi, just bought my first boat, Norman 23, bought as a shell, I’m in the process of refurbishing the boat and adding a rear deck to allow a little more space. Firstly - the whole gas locker situation ! Do I need a locker if the gas is chained up on the rear deck external to the interior living quarters ?? Secondly are there any regulations that would hamper my plans to put a counter lever rear deck on the boat extending the length by approx 1250mm ? 
    thirdly what is the recommended process to prepare, prime, paint and antifoul the water bound elevations? What are the best products to use ?  4thly is it a bss requirement to have a bilg or submerse pump installed to counter flooding, water ingress or sinking ? Finally can anyone recommend an outboard motor 10hp or more with forward and reverse gears, some thing reliable that won’t cost more than the boat ? 
     

    any feed back would great appreciated

     

    thanks Ed  

    You might find that using an electric outboard makes complying with sections of the BSS easier.

  10. Hybrid v. Diesel - Which would you recommend and why?

    in New to Boating?

    Posted

    Confession time: the generator in the series hybrid propulsion system I'm half way through retrofitting to my tug is powered by a Gardner 1L2!

     

    Otherwise the finished configuration would have left me with an almost empty engine room which I could, I suppose, have used either as a larder or a small library. However, installing a single cylinder Gardner, almost certainly once used on a generator to power either the light or horn in a lighthouse, seemed a win win situation to me as, I'd always wanted to own a Gardner engine of one sort or another.

     

    In the event, sourcing the generator head has turned out a lot more challenging than laying my hands on the 1L2, but worth it in the end. Tony Redshaw is busy effecting the marriage as I write!1L2a.jpg.c510df0da546ae12a6504f44e415b373.jpg

    • Greenie 2

  12. Hybrid v. Diesel - Which would you recommend and why?

    in New to Boating?

    Posted

    That be one of the beasts. Lynch Motors have a developed a PMAC variant for Peachment and Lightning Craft have one they're developing around a small Beta diesel coupled to an 10kW Engiro electric motor. The latter is heading in the direction I've suggested and they are open to ideas, comment and observation. Engiro is currently also my electric motor of choice for my own project and for two others I'm involved with.

  13. Hybrid v. Diesel - Which would you recommend and why?

    in New to Boating?

    Posted

    So some serious electronic wizardry, the cocooning I referred to above (quoting missingtheboat's reference to the Beta 43 cocooning) and getting everything balanced to take account of all operational modes.

     

    From conversations I've recently had around costs with the manufacturers you are probably right about the impact of development costs and small volumes resulting in little or no overall saving over what we currently know as a parallel hybrid. In at least one case, the objective is simply to keep the final package within the cost of a Hybridmarine unit!

  14. Hybrid v. Diesel - Which would you recommend and why?

    in New to Boating?

    Posted

    As a member of the IWA Sustainable Boating Group (SBG) it's inevitable that I'm going to point you to: https://waterways.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/An-Introduction-to-Electric-Narrowboating-Revision-1.pdf in the first instance!

     

    What is changing (and it's beginning to blur the distinction between parallel and serial hybrids) is that at least three suppliers of propulsion systems have started to offer an integrated electrc drive/generator neatly packaged in a slightly enlarged bell housing. This has the potential to tick a) b) and c) of the introduction in the guide above if developed in the right way. What's more the package will be one 'unit' short of a serial hybrid in that there is only as single motor/generator. Undersize the diesel (so that it is matched to the generator/drive motor and only supporting it in electric drive mode when required) and employ the the services of the Beta silencing equipment (or similar) you refer to above (so not, in fact, unrelated!) and you have efficiencies approaching that of a serial hybrid configuration.

     

    There's probably some way to go on this, which is why the SBG currently comes down on the side of the conventional serial hybrid at the moment for inland waterways boats ... although the equation changes dramatically for lumpy water craft! For that reason, my own retrofitted electric drive (replacing straight diesel propulsion) is following this route having been conceived and designed a year ago when I installed a 30kW lithium battery bank and went totally off-grid.

     

    As you might imagine there's quite a lot of first hand information within the group which we're more than happy to share, discuss and debate in the hope that helps other boaters to make the right (for them) choices. Although not a member, IanD has also been instrumental in helping us accrue knowledge and fact.

  17. Robin Summers narrowboats

    in General Boating

    Posted

    Further sleuthing has finally got to the bottom of what was rapidly becoming something of an irritating mystery:

     

    i) It has become apparent that Robin Summers actually only built one narrowboat, albeit an example that, with its trad stern etc, is a very convincing one-off and could be the envy of many established fabricators.

    ii) The (presumably) unintended 'deception' lay in the number 42 writ large on the cabin side, which led me to believe that he was a prolific shell builder. In reality the customer was a keen fan of The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy in which "The number 42 is especially significant to fans of science fiction novelist Douglas Adams because that number is the answer given by a supercomputer to 'the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything'".

    iii) I rest my case ... and can once again draw breath!!

  18. A Yankee Neo's Flog

    in New to Boating?

    Posted · Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
    Changed the email address to the companies public one.

    43 minutes ago, IanD said:

    Yorkshire "you"... 😉 

     

    P.S. You're welcome to a go sometime when we're out boating if you want. @Up-Side-Down spent a couple of days on board with us when we were moving the boat between marinas in April because he wanted to check out how the boat worked, and went away happy... 🙂 

    VERY happy. I'm now looking at Engiro motors for three separate (and very different) projects. Volksport are the UK importers and their marine arm is Lightning Craft headed up by the ever-helpful Josh Masters  – 07825 428677; info@lightningcraft.co.uk; www.lightningcraft.co.uk – who, as an imaginative, ex-diesel marine engineer, is well suited to steering one through the often challenging transition to electric drive.

    • Greenie 1

  19. HVO is it available?

    in General Boating

    Posted · Edited by Up-Side-Down

    50 minutes ago, sigsegv said:

    Is there any issue with mixing HVO and diesel? I.e., if needing to fill your tank with HVO would you be required to empty out the old diesel prior to filling (or vice versa)?

    Thank you Peterboat for making me revisit the details relating to NOx output when using HVO in place of mineral diesel. Previously I'd been content with the figure of 30% that has been widely banded about without questioning it and probing further as readers of this thread have subsequently done. GBF Ltd, when they were in business, even claimed 35% NOx reduction due to a 'magic' additive they employed. Now that I did recognise as being probably a piece of pure hyperbole!

     

    If I thought there were any issues relating to virgin palm oil use, resulting in deforestation, rest assured I wouldn't touch the stuff with the proverbial barge pole. I'm confident that the ZEMO-run accreditation is as sound as any exercise of this nature can be as they have no axe to grind either way. 

     

    Printed below is the response, as promised, from our chemist. Make of it what you will:

     

    'NOx production is a very dynamic issue and linked, in many instances, to the particular engine that the fuel is being used within.

     

    'NOx is directly linked to the temperature of the burn (as NOx is simply produced by the burning of Nitrogen in the atmosphere at high temperatures). As you can therefore imagine, the “tune” of the engine is therefore very important and will have a large impact on the overall production of NOx.

     

    'HVO, has a higher cetane number and therefore a greater propensity to ignite under pressure than Diesel fuel; the burn is also more “abrupt” and therefore the flame resonance time in the engine is shorter. All of these factors mean that the max cylinder temp is lower, and less NOx are produced. Engines therefore that can control injector timing (effectively retarding the injector) via ECU control therefore gain the greatest benefit.

     

    'I am very keen to ensure that anyone that might be inclined to listen, that NOx reduction is a “soft” benefit as it is so variable and dependent on engine, how it is being operated, condition, atmospheric pressure etc etc etc. 

     

    'Ultimately HVO will inherently reduce NOx emissions and therefore a broadbrush benefit would be gained – I therefore fail to understand why papers such as this should be seen as a reason to say NO to the fuel. Afterall the major benefit of HVO is the reduction in GHG CO2 emission. ALL fuels that combust will produce NOx, it’s one of the laws of chemistry!'

     

    • Greenie 3

  21. HVO is it available?

    in General Boating

    Posted · Edited by Up-Side-Down

    1 hour ago, cuthound said:

     

    How does burning HVO reduce NOx?

     

    My understanding is that NOx is produced when an internal combustion engine (petrol of diesel) burns air and fuel, the combustion temperatures are high enough to split the nitrogen and oxygen molecules in the engine aspiration air into more reactive atoms that readily reform into NOx. The higher combustion temperatures of a diesel are why diesels produce more NOx than petrol engines.

     

    If this is the case then unless HVO significantly reduces combustion temperatures with the engine I cannot see how NOX can be claimed to be substantially.

    I'll talk to one of the chemists in our group and get back to you rather than give a poorer rendering of the answer myself.

    • Greenie 2

  22. Spending a small fortune to live like a homeless person

    in New to Boating?

    Posted

    Something of relatively small unit size to make the best of what will be an 'awkward' space. Engineering bricks ... or I have seen the cast iron weights from sash windows used to good effect. Ensure that you place 'building paper' or similar between ballast and hull.

     

    The IWA Sustainable Boating Group has done some work on hull efficiency, assisted by the Department of Naval Architecture, Ocean and Marine Engineering at Strathclyde University, which suggests that a boat that swims level uses less fuel than one with bow or stern in the air, all other things being equal. Ultimately, it does come down to available cross sectional area of the canal, which is a whole other topic!!

    • Popular Post
    • Popular Post

    HVO is it available?

    in General Boating

    Posted · Edited by Up-Side-Down

    This is the up to date HVO picture for those that can find time for a read:

     

    HVO UPDATE – 16.05.2024

     

     

    Activity on the sourcing and supply of HVO is currently the focus of the HVO Joint Working Group, made up from members of IWA, RYA, CA and British Marine and we met recently.

     

    The Group’s objective is to make ‘subsidised’ HVO readily available, at an affordable price to ALL recreational boaters and not just limited to the inland waterways – Cat A, B and non-tidal Cat C – as is currently the case. At present craft operating in tidal waters cannot benefit from Road Transport Fuel Certificates (RTFCs) two of which are applied to every litre of HVO sold to qualifying craft. Their value varies but they are currently worth £0.17 each, so a litre of HVO effectively attracts ‘subsidy’ of £0.34.

     

    Volatility in pricing is a real concern and does nothing to encourage boatyards and marinas to stock the fuel. A month ago, the wholesale price of HVO was only £0.12 (12%) greater than gas oil (red diesel) per litre, today that differential is more like 50%. This is believed to be largely down to fluctuations in commodity markets as fuel prices themselves vary, alongside the raw materials (or feedstock) which are quite separately governed by the agricultural commodity market.

     

    Manipulating the value of an RTFC would, in theory, represent a government ‘device’ for controlling this volatility but with their current low value there is limited room for (pricing) manoeuvre. Two years ago an RTFC was worth £0.42 so, with an effective subsidy of £0.84 attached to each litre of HVO sold, there was ample room to make an external impact. Those in the fuel industry are therefore suggesting that the time has come to revisit HODA (1979) – the Act that laid down our current fuel duty mechanisms: https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/oils-technical-manual/hcoteg31000.

     

    The HVO Joint Working Group are currently building a case for RTFC application to all recreational boating around demonstrating that the consumption of diesel fuel (and potentially, HVO should it be made affordable) is extremely small and will therefore have little effect on revenue for HMRC. In addition, we are pointing out that this sector has few other alternatives to decarbonising as the biofuels allocated to both the Coastal and Deep Sea Maritime sectors are inappropriate for recreational boat users. 

     

    Furthermore, the sea-going recreational sector depend on reliable fuelling of their diesel engines, which may well still have a long life ahead of them, making scrapping an environmentally undesirable, unrealistic and an extremely expensive option. The emphasis on ‘reliable’ being a reference to problems with ‘diesel bug’ (and associated mechanical issues) exacerbated by the FAME content of mineral diesel on sale in marinas and boatyards.

     

    HVO sold in the UK is currently supplied by Neste and manufactured in Rotterdam. It is shipped to Stanlow (supplying Crown Oil and its agents and subsidiaries) and to Dagenham from where it is distributed by Certas. It has been mooted that, with the refinery element of Grangemouth closing down, Neste (or one of its competitors) should be encouraged to establish an UK HVO manufacturing plant on the site.

     

    Finally, taking the bigger picture, the limiting of RTFC-eligibility to vessels plying Cat A, B and non-tidal Cat C waters is having a negative environmental impact on commercial carrying on the inland waterways, where many craft are transporting bulk cargoes, on tidal rivers into UK towns and cities, where air quality is at a premium. The Rivers Thames and Medway being good examples as, indeed, could be the Rivers Clyde and Tay.

     

    Not only is HVO 90% carbon neutral, it’s NoX and particulate emissions are substantially reduced so there are consequently significant health benefits (apart from the obvious carbon reduction) to be gained where water-borne traffic interfaces with dense populations.

     

    DfT tell us that they intend to put out a Call for Evidence around maritime biofuel use but as yet they have offered no time scales. To this end the Group’s energies are predominantly focused on establishing usage data and general fact gathering in the believe that further, individual approaches to the Department, will only be referred to this upcoming consultation process.

     

    A new development (announced 16th May 2024) is that a green hydrogen plant is to be established at Grangemouth Refinery which is shortly to stop production and simply become a storage facility. In the Scottish Cross Party Group (for marine leisure and recreational tourism) we have been suggesting that Grangemouth – being well connected with the rest of the UK via rail and motorway on both east and west sides of the country – would make an excellent site for HVO production. This announcement goes more than halfway to achieving this, resulting in a product that was virtually 100% carbon neutral.

    • Greenie 5

  25. Hybrid v. Diesel - Which would you recommend and why?

    in New to Boating?

    Posted

    5 hours ago, Jay and Neil Currie said:

    Neil and Jay here again (well Neil). We are heading to Crick next weekend and really wanted to get some impressions from folks who own both drive types as to the merits and downsides of Hybrid boats and Diesel boats. To my simple mind the main difference is the amount of noise whilst cruising, we have pets who most definitely do NOT care for the sound of ICE engines so hybrid is a clear bonus in this aspect. However, there will be a list as long as my arm of pros and cons for both. Just keen to hear everyone's personal experience. Thanks folks 🙂

    I think this is a great question to get an important sustainable boating ball rolling and you could well get a variety of very well informed answers on this forum. To an extent, the same will be true at Crick, although you will inevitably find partiality amongst some of the builders for the usual commercial reasons. 

     

    The IWA Sustainable Boating Group (SBG) has quite a lot of impartial and helpful information on its website, specifically in your case, to equip you with the right sort of questions to be asking: https://waterways.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/An-Introduction-to-Electric-Narrowboating-Reviion-2.pdf. If you want to pick our brains and have a chat with us at Crick, visit the IWA stand (Q34) and ask for Jonathan on Saturday and Sunday or Bowman on Monday.

     

    Within the SBG there is a wealth of practical experience and knowledge, which we're more than happy to share, as we recognise that this is a fast moving area of inland boating and we are keen for people to be able to make well-informed decisions and get it right first time. After all you will, potentially, be spending rather a lot of money!

     

    For more general sustainable boating info visit https://waterways.org.uk/campaigns/sustainable-boating. 

    • Greenie 2
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