Tony1

Thanks again Jen, that's one thing less to have to think about. With the growth in solar usage and off grid tech in recent years, the gear to do this sort of job will be around by now. To be honest I'm surprised there aren't more threads here about solar hot water. My guess is that its because there are so few CCing liveaboards (what is it- maybe 6,000 of the total 35,000 boats?)- and of those, not many have enough solar panels to make it a subject of direct interest. Boaters who dont live aboard full time tend to cruise a lot more, so they dont need solar hot water, because they have the engine running most days anyway. To a degree, the same issue deters them from investing a lot of money in lithium batteries, and you can see why.

Thanks very much Jen, that'll go on my 'to consider' list. I would rather take power directly from the panels, instead of having the batteries do the work of taking it in and then passing it out to the inverter. At the moment it feels like a lot of Ah for the batteries to be processing on a daily basis, and it will probably be a factor in shortening the batteries' lifespan by at least some degree. I don't have the electrical nous to consider doing this job, so it will be one for a professional. The 12v elements are only 300 watt, but at full chat on a midsummer day the two MPPTS can put out almost 100 amps combined for short periods (at around 13.5 volts), which if I understand it right is about 1350 watts- more than four times the power rating of the 12volt element. So I think I need some way of limiting the amount of power that is sent to the 12v immersion element. The other concern is a thermostat. At the moment it uses a 240v thermostat that switches off the 240v supply once the element gets up to the correct temp, so everything seems fairly safe. My worry would be this- even if I can get hold of a thermostat switch or system that will disconnect the thick 12v cable from the MPPTs once the water is hot, wouldn't a sudden disconnect damage the MPPTs or panels? The MPPTs do have a tiny port for a control wire, and that will act to switch them off safely (which is what I currently use to switch them off when the batteries get to 80% SoC). But I would need a way for the thermostat to send a 12v signal to the MPPTs, via the tiny control cable into the BMS port. At the moment, with my very limited understanding of electrics and the potential issues to manage, it seems like its not worth getting into the cost and hassle of converting the immersion to 12v (and whatever I put in would have to get past a BSS inspector next year), But never say never.....

I do fear I'm making it sound more complex than it needs to be, with my extra backup method for charging control. I dont think any other boaters use this sort of approach based on SoC, they just control their charging based on the voltage, and it works absolutely fine for them. And when I'm the only boater who is doing a particular thing, its usually a safe bet that the thing I'm doing is either unnecessary, or downright dangerous. I probably caught some form of lithium fever (its definitely a thing), but I left the system in place even after the fever wore off.

You are spot on about the timings Tony- the batteries are usually back up to 80 or 85% by 11am on a really sunny day. I'm not clever enough to wire in a automatic switch to divert the solar to the immersion heater, but I did get Ed Shiers to connect my immersion heater up properly so that it runs from the inverter, and it has a manual on/off switch. If I know its going to be sunny all day I actually run the immersion early in the morning, which helps to run down the SoC a bit more, and I then have hot water earlier in the day. It only takes about 30 mins to get the water to about 40 degrees (hot enough to wash in), and that seems to use about 40Ah, but it doesn take too long for that to be replaced on a sunny day. Of course the solar hot water will be no more once we get halfway into September, but I'm enjoying it while its here, and in any case the stove will be a decent source after that. I'm hoping the fridge and other things will continue to run on solar (at least on most days), until mid October, and on some sunny days even into November. When I'm feeling brave and clever enough, I'm going to fit a knob that will allow me to control the amount of current going to the immersion heater. I think reducing its load from the flat-out 80 amps down to say 40 amps will reduce the stress it places on the batteries, and hopefully maintain their 10-year plus longevity.

This unusual feature arose from my own lack of knowledge and common sense, to be honest. (And just to clarify, mine are lithium batteries) Initially I was using the victron solar charge controller to decide when charging stopped, and it would go into float, exactly as you say. I initially set my absorption voltage to 13.75 volts. My thinking was once the batteries went significantly above that, the MPPTs would go into float (which I set at 13.15v). My reasoning was that my absorption setting of 13.75 volts, when exceeded, would be the point when the batteries got to 80-85% full. But I found that the end SoC that was reached at the point when the batteries went above 13.75v- and the MPPTs went into float- was quite variable. For example, if it was very sunny and charging at say 60-90 amps, the battery voltage seemed to increase more, and faster. Sometimes with this setting, the batteries were only getting to 70-75% full before they went above 13.75v, and the MPPTs would go into into float at a time when I wanted more charging to be done. Conversely, if the MPPTs were putting in say 15 amps, the voltage would stay quite low for much of the time, and a higher SoC would be reached by the time the battery voltage got up to 13.75v. Its a very first world problem, and most people just ignore it as a non-issue, but I was basically seized by a fit of lithium madness, so I shelled out on a victron BMV-712 to monitor the SoC, and with Nick's guidance I used the relay inside BMV712 to trigger the MPPTs to switch off when the monitor measured them at 80% full, using a tiny wire connected into the 'remote BMS' ports on the MPPTs. When the SoC falls below a set value (currently 55%), the MPPTs are then switched back on by the BMV712, and charging starts again. This method helps to ensure that the batteries get cycled a bit on a daily basis, although I still have to give them a full cycle every couple of weeks. So that (somewhat overkill) method has become my method for managing the day to day charging, and I set the absorption voltage at a slightly higher value of 13.80volts. So the charge settings on the MPPT now act as a sort of backup method for stopping the charging, rather than being the front line method, as it is with normal people. A backup method to stop the charging is handy because the SoC values can drift in terms of accuracy over time, and one always has to look at both voltage and SoC together when trying to determine what the SoC is. This is what lithium batteries can do to you.

I think it will be a very long time before panels and MPPTs would pay for themselves, but it might be possible to give a very, very approximate idea of the cost saving over a year. My 1400watts of panels have recorded generating about 640kW of electricity in the almost 12 months since I finished the setup. I must add that I have a switch that disables the MPPTs when the battery SoC reaches its target value (currently set at 80% SoC), and that means during the summer they could have generated more, but on many days they were switched off some time in the early afternoon because by then the water was hot and the batteries were as full as I wanted them to be. So that 650 Kw could have become 900 Kw or more, if I hadnt had them switched off for many hours on many summer days. But in terms of the electricity I've actually used, its been 640kW, which on hookup would cost me about £130. The panels, mounts and MPPTs cost about £600 and I fitted them myself (with some expert guidance from our resident gurus), so at the current rate it would take well over 4-5 years to pay for themselves, if was on hookup. But as I'm CCing, and only cruising about once a week, the big saving for me has been in diesel. Without the panels I'd have had to run my engine purely for electricity on 6 days of each week, and I'd be using about a litre of diesel each day to do that (and on some days more). If I was to price diesel at say £1.50 per litre since the start of April, the panels have saved me using diesel on about 100 days, so that's saved £150 so far this year. Over a full year I would imagine the panels will save me about £230, so they'll have paid for themselves in another two years. (That's not including the cost of an engine service every 200 hours, which could be from £30 if DIY up to £150 if done by a professional. Plus any costs/reduced boat value that might arise from the extra wear and tear on the engine itself from the increased running hours)

I spent nearly 4 months at Swanley Bridge in the winter of 2020/2021, and I must say the staff there were really nice and helpful. There is a water outlet within a few feet of each boat, and each boat has a handy electrical hookup, and they sell coal and gas. Its a lovely location too, and within cycling distance of Nantwich. There isnt a clubhouse or cafe/bar as with many posh marinas, so the social mixing is not as frequent, but that suits some people anyway. I must say I enjoyed staying there over the winter, and I was sorry to leave, but of course I'm not a marina dweller- I was there to get some work done and it ended up dragging out for months. Tattenhall also seemed a nice place as well when I visited- the staff seemed very nice, and they have a nice cafe and bar with social events if that's your thing, although the chandlery items available seemed very limited. Only issue for me with Tattenhall is there's not much around- the village of Tattenhall itself has one useful shop, so if you stay there you'll want a car really, or else be ok with regular 40 minute bus trips up to chester.

I wouldn't let Winter be a major factor either way. If you see the right boat at the right price in October, go for it. As long as the boat systems are working (and critically the stove), Winter's not that big a deal. Do make sure the batteries and charging system are running properly- my first batteries were half knackered, and by October I was running the engine for 3 or more hours each day to try to recharge them. And they were still down to 50% charge by 9 or 10pm, and down to 40% or less by the morning, which is bad for lead acids. If you have a car, its worth hanging onto it for the first few months at least, in case you need to go and buy heavy items like batteries- but that would apply in summer as well. What I would do for the first few weeks is stay reasonably close to towns most of the time, so you can pick up any stuff you need urgently. I spent a few weeks close to Nantwich in my first winter- the towpath there was tarmac, so it was easy, quick, and safe to cycle into town for anything I ran out of. Also, get at least 6 bags of coal onto the boat before you move anywhere (maybe from a passing fuel boat)- that will see you through the first few weeks. Bear in mind most marinas sell coal as well, so its never too far away. It partly depends on whether you are still going to be working- in which case the short daylight hours can be a nuisance, and you are always getting back to the boat in the dark (and usually wet). But if you are semi retired or fully retired, you have all the daylight hours to sort yourself out and the boat. Many lock flights don't have volunteers in the depths of winter, but on the plus side there's little traffic so you can take your time and think through all the manouvres in locks. You need more warm gear in winter (its surprising just how chilled your body can get when standing more or less still on the back of a boat in a cold winter wind)- so there is that, and the mud is more common (and even rain seems to be as well). But on the plus side CRT relax the rules a bit (unofficially), and if a place is quiet you might be able to stay for 4 weeks instead of two, so there's less pressure to keep moving. You can generally cruise around all day and only see a few boats moving, so there's less chance of collisions and evasive manoeuvres being needed at bridge holes and tight bends, which makes it a bit less stressful. The biggest change in winter is probably the isolation. The short days and the cold tend to keep boaters indoors more, so you'll have less chance to start a conversation with other boaters or passers by. But on the whole I would want to just get started if I was keen to get into boating, and I wouldn't let winter stop me. It definitely has some negatives, but winter can be a lovely time to cruise.

I've given a fair bit of thought to the idea of a personal alarm, and there is one solution that's very simple, albeit a bit expensive. Modern wireless alarm systems often have a key fob to set the alarm, and in many cases there is a button on the keyfob that will set off the alarm. So the keyfob in most cases can act as a panic button. The thing to consider is whether you mount the siren outside- in which case it can be smashed- or you mount it inside, in which case its volume is muffled and reduced to listeners outside. There are also dummy alarm boxes you can buy for about £30- I stuck one on my bow doors as a visual deterrent, as it can be seen through the clear window sections in the cratch cover. In fairness though, I did go a bit OTT 😂

Just a thought on the PIR: I would set it up so that it doesnt light up every time someone passes on the towpath. You only want it coming on if they get very close to the boat, or on it. A guy told me a while ago his PIR came on when a gang of youngsters was passing his boat in Chester basin, and the light coming on actually encouraged the lads to sit down and have a bit of a laugh for an hour in the brightly lit area. When mooring in the centre of towns and villages, if a few drunks are passing your boat on the way home from the pub, a PIR light coming on might attract their attention, and they might start messing around near the boat, or with the ropes etc. Last time I was in Chester basin for a couple of days, a party of young girls went past after leaving the pub, approaching midnight I think, and as they passed by I could hear one or two of them saying things like 'Hello? Hello- anybody home?' etc. They don't mean any harm of course, they're just having a bit of a giggle- and in fact 90% of male drunks wont give you any real trouble if you talk to them calmly, but when drunks are likely to be passing, any random thing can stimulate their interest (and amusement), and thus give you 30 minutes of drunk diplomacy to manage. So my PIR light only comes on if someone actually gets onto the stern.

My dear Mr Hound, have a care for my health. I fear my ribs may have been damaged from sheer laughter 😀

I'm sorry, what? Can you translate to Panda please? It's Saturday, FFS.

Just a few random thoughts: 1. It's such a huge investment in every way that I'd definitely try a week's holiday first. It's not likely, but there is always a small chance you just won't like it very much. 2. I got a 50ft boat because the price was great and it wasnt very old, and now I would really like 57-60ft. The storage constraints are pretty sever compared to a house, and its made worse by the fact that you have to get loads and loads of boat-related tools and gear that takes up a lot of the space available. Forget about the manouvering advantages of a 50 footer. The space advantages of a 58 footer far outweigh the manouverability issue. 3. I took no courses of any sort and probably saved hundred and hundreds, but then I did bump into a few things on my first cruise, so you know. Horses for courses... To get going you only need to know a couple of knots (including how to tie up the front and back ends of the boat), and you can pick up other stuff as you go. I learned what little I do know of knots on youtube tbh. 4. As Goliath said above, don't fear the winter. The waterways are lovely in winter, even if sometimes a bit desolate in aspect, and with so few boats moving there is a real sense of peace. It makes a lovely contrast with the madness of summer. A few basic precautions will see you right. Just get some very thick gloves (I cheat and use electrically heated ones), two or three pairs of socks (especially with wellies on, as they let in the cold air), thermal leggings under your trousers, and several layers on your torso, and you'll be warm for hours. The snag comes if you have to work a lock when you're so heavily wrapped up- the slightest exertion has me sweating under all the layers, so be ready to ditch the outer two layers at locks. The only time winter gets a bit annoying for me is when it rains on the days I want to cruise. 5. You might get the idea that the cowboy hat is mandatory for boaters over the age of 55. This is not the case. Always remember the cowboy hat is optional. I prefer a Sherlock Holmes style deerstalker.

The problem with trying to pitch to a specific audience is that some are quite tricky. I identify as a hermaphrodite fox, for example- but only on weekdays. So I need lithium batteries to be explained in my native fox, or else I've had it.

I lay awake nights imagining life with a woman who actually likes doing engine services, painting, or fixing electrics.... Why aren't there more of you about? The way I see it, engine work is work - nasty work too. And all work is bad, and the less of it that I have to do, the happier I generally am. But on a more serious note, I am optimistic that the younger generations are beginning to break out of the stereotyped gender behaviours that are expected of them by older people. I think the older generation to a large extent are too set in their ways to change their perspective. 'It ain't broke, so don't you dare fix it' seems to be their mindset. In some cases wisdom comes with age, but in many case a growing mental rigidity is what comes instead.

For me they're both excellent, and its a tough call which one I like better, but I reckon Young Frankenstein pips The Man with Two Brains. 'Put the candle back' still makes me laugh every time I see it.

There is a real challenge, in that so much knowledge is crammed into the heads of so few people, whose help is called upon again and again. I just need to figure out a way of transferring all the knowledge from Tony and Tracy's brains into mine. If I recall my Frankenstinian biology correctly, all I need to do is insert very sharp 6 inch electrodes into their heads, and connect them to my own skull, with about 10,000 volts to gee things up a bit. I'm up for it. What could possibly go wrong?

Ed might not be the cheapest you'll see, and he's mad busy, but worth waiting for. He'll do it properly and safely, and he has a lot of knowledge and experience with lithiums- which many marine electricians are still wary of, as I found last year.

It would be typically perverse for a local authority to stop the electricity at the time of year when its most needed. I wonder if they are concerned about people plugging in fan heaters or hairdryers, and basically extracting the maximum possible power for their full stay? Do they not know boaters don't wash their hair in winter?? Or is that just me? Oh dear, that's embarrassing..... Their stinginess does not matter- I have a decent charging system, so I can get 100Ah of charge into the batteries in about an hour of engine running, and the other 20 or 30Ah I might need will come from solar. But I beg you Mrs Haggis, do please throw a few more coals onto the fire this winter. Poor Mr H looked so pale and wan when last we met- I fear he may suffer the same fate as the famous Captain Oates. If you hear him say 'I'm just going inside for a while- I'll be back soon', then its time to panic.

I'd love one for the worst winter months tbh. It seems so much more efficient to heat only the water you need. Could it be there is a perception that the BSS people are making it more tricky? They seem to have made gas fridges less popular by stating that a new gas fridge has to be marked as being 'suitable for marine use' (or something similar)? I would guess the other thing that makes people pause is the install cost- with a flue, cutting a hole in the roof (or a vent), and the gas piping, which I would imagine has to be done by someone who is qualified gas safe specifically for boats?

I must admit I'm not looking forward to buying coal this winter. I think I use about 10 bags per month in Nov-Feb, which last winter cost about £12-13 per bag. So the coal bill was maybe £130 per month, plus a litre of diesel most days for recharging and hot water. I think its around £1.60 per litre, which will mean a bit over £40 per month for recharging and hot water during winter. But if the coal doubles, say, that's going to be £260 per month, and take the overall total to maybe £300 per month. As bad news as that is, its still much less than householders will be paying. If coal goes up much more than that, there will be many more boaters out scavenging wood this winter. One wonders whether there will be a possibility of coal being nicked from one's roof, if people get desperate enough.

I think it would definitely be worth some sort of trial run before committing the money, and a shed sounds as good as anything else, if only to get an idea of the space. The very long-term liveaboard I met had one of these shorter boats, but as in this example he had built up a rear cabin, and I think he could almost stand up in it, although there wasnt room to take more than one pace in any direction. I think he had the basics- a coal stove made from an empty gas bottle, a basic two burner hob, a bowl to act as a sink, and a 20 litre water container with a tap on it. It sounds unlikely, but it must all have gone through at least one BSS exam. Nevertheless, it struck me as being a pretty brutal experience, and not one I would willingly endure myself, but I guess sometimes a super-tight budget and a very thick skin will steer people towards making some hard core lifestyle choices.

Thanks a lot, I'd totally overlooked that stretch, although the map does show a mooring spot, which will be good for 14 days. Using street view and moving along the towpath, it looks like there are only enough rings there for maybe two boats, so it's not a spot you can count on being available even in winter. But it looks like it has a much more open and pleasant aspect than the online CRT winter moorings further on towards the basin. Those seem to be overshadowed by trees, which I'm not a fan of in the winter months. What I've noticed so far is that on the quiet sections of canal in winter, CRT do not enforce the 14 day rule quite so strictly, but I would expect in that spot they will be right on the case 365 days of the year. But I'd be happier spending 2 weeks there (and spend maybe £2 each day on diesel to recharge batteries), than spend £255 per month to moor a couple of hundred yards further on. What I found last winter was that any normal/free mooring spots near towns tend to be fully occupied by liveaboards for most of the time, so I wouldn't expect those 2 or 3 spots to be available, especially given they are the only free spots for a few miles. The budget-conscious liveaboards will be all over those spots from mid-Oct onwards, I would guess.

Oh, I seeeee.... So in the winter, maybe the basin becomes 14 day mooring like most other short-stay spots (subject to not being evicted by a mob of pitchfork-wielding locals). I can see the beginnings of a plan- I could stay in the basin for 2 weeks, then move onto an online winter mooring for a month, and then scarper. Great news for the local pasty shops, which can expect to treble their sales during my stay. But the dreaded closures loom large, and one must plan these ventures with military precision. There are a number of closures appearing on the CRT list. Grindley Brook is closed between 9/1 and 20/2, and bridge 31W at Trevor is closed from 3/1 to 20/1, and Hurleston from 3/1 to 3/2. They also mention a stoppage near Frankton from 16/1 for 2 months, but then say that not all of that time will be actual closure. So the intrepid boater has to get out of the basin area and past Trevor before 3/1, and then past Frankton by 16/1 (which allows a stay near both Chirk and St Martins). Our dashing hero might then spend a week or two near Ellesmere, and perhaps the same near Whitchurch, before cruising through the newly reopened Grindley Brook locks in late Feb. I love it when a plan comes together.

I've met a few guys who were CCing full time on craft of about 20ft, in fact one of them had been doing it for more than 7 years. It would be way too hard core a life for me, or indeed for most people, but there are a few hardy souls who are prepared to suffer the major discomforts and inconveniences, just to live afloat. I'm sure most of them would really like something bigger and more comfortable, but I guess for some people that's not an option, and if your budget will only stretch to a few thousand or less, you can exist on one of these small boats, at least on the canals anyway. You could install a small stove, a basic water supply/sink etc, and even a solar panel or two, but it would be wrong to sugar coat it. I would never want to tread upon someone's dream of life afloat, but the truth is that It's got to be a pretty tough existence, especially in the winter, and especially for someone elderly. If there was some way the OP's buyer could try out a few days on board something this size, it might really help to clarify his thoughts about whether its really worth all the major sacrifices he'd have to make to live this way. Perhaps he could ask the current owner if he could spend a couple of night aboard, to get a feel for living in such a tiny space.