Tony1

Electrics are one of the worst areas in my experience. I once paid a guy to do an 'informal' wiring job between engine bay and batteries. He said he was qualified to work on gas but also had a good knowledge of electrics. Half an hour in, I could see he was ripping out cables from all over the place, and I got worried. I knew the job mainly involved inserting new cable, not taking out out old stuff, so I queried his actions. He said something to the effect of : 'these connections are not safe, I am obliged to rip them out, now that I've seen them' So there you have a guy essentially with no professionally-backed knowledge (or insurance cover), not formally hired (cash in hand), and not acting as per the rules of any professional body, but pretending to be bound by professional safety rules, and thus refusing to comply with my request to leave the existing wiring alone. It took a fairly heated 'discussion' to clarify things for him. and focus on what I actually needed doing. This will not be an isolated example, and these sorts of people are essentially preying on boaters who know no better, and often charging a lot of money.

I thought about that, and there is definitely a place for it. But there also has to be a place where we can share the names of the really bad operators, surely? I mean the really crappy clueless ones. I'm guessing there are specialist review sites available so maybe there's no real need, but then any professional who can put a head gasket on wrongly needs to be known about by other boaters. About 20% of the people who did jobs for me seemed to know very little more than I did, which is a terrifying thought.

That's a good point Tony, and should be taken into account. My concern is for those boaters who are left very unsatisfied after an attempt has been made to fix things (or the opportunity offered). Rather than make a potentially legal issue by allowing full descriptions of the problem, we could have a tick box style form where you select things like 'engine', electrics, or whatever, you just give the company name, the area the work involved (eg electrics), and then you give a score out of ten. No legally actionable details etc, just a score maybe? If anyone wants the grisly details you can do that via a private message?

I spoke to a boater today who said an engineer (who shall remain nameless) had recently fitted a head gasket on his engine incorrectly. I think he said it was fitted upside down, but I cant be sure on that detail. I think it would be a good idea if boaters- who pay a lot of money for professional boat services- had a system where we can find out if a given pro has left a lot of people disappointed. I absolutely realise that the idea is fraught with issues and complications, and is potentially open to abuse by customers who had unreasonable expectations, or who misread the spec for the job, or similar. So yes, there are complications. But with the provisos mentioned, in the case of the boater I mentioned above, wouldn't it be a great help to the boating community if we had a shared knowledge of when professionals left customers disappointed? Maybe it could just be a sort of 'naughty' list, with no details of the work that could lead to a legal challenge. Or maybe we could just ensure that all the posts made in that section contained the word 'allegedly'? I just feel like boaters should be protected from these sorts of cowboys, and the best place to share that sort of knowledge has to be here, right?

If I spend any time moored in London (which I occasionally ponder about doing), I'll be setting up a crowd funding thing to pay for all the counselling I'll need after being double and treble moored for a month, queueing at the inadequate water points, and laying awake every night worrying about being burgled. Joking aside, I bet after a few months, all the snags and inconveniences just becomes a way of life that many people can get used to. I bet the boaters are a lovely bunch, and very eclectic, but I couldn't hack it with all the overcrowding for more than a couple of weeks.

Mine is a mid-range pump I think, nothing special. But I suspect whatever the make of pump, it will benefit from not being switched on and off every few seconds because the water flow is too slow. And to be honest, most of the time I use the cold water it will be on a slow flow, to make the water tank last longer. Tony did say an expansion vessel in the cold water supply will help reduce some of the stress on the calorifier, so you're not contradicting his advice. But I think he did say a dedicated expansion vessel in the hot water supply is the ideal-world solution.

Thanks Rusty. Thing is, I don't think I've mentioned until today that I have no accumulator on the cold water supply. And so at the moment my water pump switches on and off every few seconds if I run the cold water tap slowly. So maybe my expansion vessel can prevent that issue happening- and also help to reduce stress in the calorifier- if I put it in the right place on the cold supply? And you're saying the right place to help with both issues would be anywhere after the water pump, right? I think Tony said this was not as good a solution as an expansion vessel in the hot water supply, but at least it would save me having to get a second one....

I did explain to the guy that I dont have an accumulator anywhere, but he was still quite dismissive about the need for an expansion vessel. I think Tony B himself said that there was an alternative to fit an expansion vessel in the cold supply to the calorifier (with no NRV being present). I'm pretty sure I have no NRV in the cold supply, so if I can confirm that somehow (e.g. without having to remove the shower tray and check underneath), then I might consider fitting the expansion vessel in the cold supply, e.g. under the sink), which will be easier than putting it into the hot water out from the calorifier. If I were to fit the expansion vessel that way, does it matter where in the cold supply it goes? Is it ok to put it anywhere after the water pump?

Thanks very much Tony. The hot water initially comes out of the calorifier in a flexible metal hose, which feeds into the mixing valve. So it looks like I'm going to have to fit some 15mm pipe to the end of that metal hose to take the hot water into the expansion vessel (which will be sited about 18 inches away from the hot water outlet of the calorifier), and then I can fit the mixer device after the hot water supply comes out of the expansion vessel. If you don't mind me asking a quick follow up- is it likely that air will get into the hot water supply or the calorifier during this, and is there anything I should do to reduce that issue? PS- as a warning note to other folks who are poor at DIY, I wanted to add that I talked about this with a boater who I considered mechanically competent and pretty knowledgeable, and he said it wasn't a significant problem that my calorifier has no expansion vessel. It just goes to show- when talking to other boaters about boating jobs- even those boaters who've been living aboard for years and who seem adept at DIY jobs- you still cant take their technical advice at face value. I would always check with the experts here.

Hi Tony, I wonder if I can just check on something? I can't find a mention of which specific pipe I need to fit the expansion vessel on? Is it the pipe marked A above with the PRV on it? Or is it the main hot water outlet? And if its that one, would it be ok to fit the expansion vessel after the mixing valve? I've now got a 12 litre potable hot/cold vessel, plus a fitting kit from Screwfix, so I'm going to get hold of some suitable piping and joints etc, and have a go at fitting it in the next few weeks.

Yes it did, and I appreciate the offer, but I've already explained that sex acts with gerbils just don't interest me

I remember us chatting about the genny thing, and I do agree it makes a lot of sense to use an engine that costs £400 than use one that costs £8000. I did consider a genny myself for this reason, but I can charge at 80 amps plus if needed, and so my engine charging runs are quite short, and they are only needed anyway between say mid-Nov and mid-Feb (so less than 100 days per year). Outside that time window my solar starts to do the job most of the time, and by March I'm expecting solar hot water on some days. Apologies, I hadn't picked up that your approach for the engine charging is only for periodic use when washing machine is on etc. That does change things a bit really, and a B2B is a simple solution that you can fit yourself, and it will manage the voltage and current pretty well,

I think if the BMS criteria and limits are properly configurable, they might useful for day to day charging control, but the ones I've seen look a bit extreme. E.g. I've seen a few that only disconnect the battery at say 10v, which is very very low for daily usage really, probably corresponding to 1% SoC or similar. On a day to day basis you want to be cycling them between 20-80% (give or take 5% or so for individual preference), with maybe a bi-weekly excursion from say 100% down to 5 or 10% as a sort of limbering up exercise to stop them getting lazy). There is a whole range of advice about it, and it seems to change every year, but thats my own approach- at the moment anyway. The other concerns is the high voltage disconnect might be a bit too high, e.g. it might allow the batteries to charge to say 99% before it disconnects them- which again seems a bit much for day to day charging. Charging them with a charger that will go into float at say 14v is a good way to make sure the SoC and the voltage dont get too high on a daily basis. But to be fair, I am a complete amateur and maybe using rather outdated advice, there will be others hopefully who will provide more reliable info.

Yes mine is not a great example and has poor charging capacity. In my case I have a 100 amp domestic alternator, but at tickover it will not put out more than about 45 amps without getting too hot- so a bit less than 50% of its official rating (I suppose in fairness, it was intended to work with lead acids). Yours will probably be ok putting out 50% of its rated current for long periods, but definitely worth checking before splashing the cash. ETA- I did a lot of testing with my alternator at different current outputs, and I found it reaches a point where just a few extra amps coming out started it overheating to above 100 degrees, so with mine there is a bit of a fine line that I had to stay within. If your chosen temp limit is less than 90 degrees, you might find even putting out 50% of its max current will be pushing it a bit. I hope you'll keep us updated- I have a morbid fascination with other people's alternators- largely out of jealousy I think.

Aha, I see you're already au fait with the testing of the alternator. I had the same thought as you- I needed a charging setup that stayed cool at tickover in case of locks etc) But here's another thought- why not consider an alternator upgrade? If yours is a poly V type of belt (the thicker type) , you can probably get a 160 amp alternator for not much more cash than a B2B charger, and that would allow you to charge at 90 or 100 amps instead of 40 or 50amps. (You could still use the 'long wire' method to control the charging current, and save the cost of a B2B.) It doesnt sound much, but in winter it means only running the engine for maybe an hour, as opposed to two hours or more with a lower charge current- so there's a saving on diesel, and on engine servicing costs due to less running hours. ETA- that was just a left field idea really- in your shoes, my preferred option would be to use the money on more solar, and use a long wire length to control charge current, but I would think that some kind of battery monitoring would also be advisable? And a way to stop the charging when the batteries reach say 13.9 volts So the costs would start to mount up. So I can see how a B2B does look a decent option as it manages the charging current/voltage, and will stop the charging at your chosen criteria, rather than relying on the battery's built in BMS, which should be considered an emergency/backup safety system, and never used in the day to day charging operations.

Yes, the little laser pointing thing is quite addictive. I did develop a sudden interest in knowing the temperature of every object on the boat. But maybe the OP could borrow these items from a nearby boating friend, and save a few quid?

No, the B2B is not used much in summer, but you do occasionally moor in a green tunnel with very little solar. With my original 660 watts of panels, I still had to use the B2Bs to charge the batteries in the summer of 2021 when I was moored just north of Chirk tunnel. So I did have a quick check of the alternator temp as I was charging, and it was no problem. But if you dont have much solar (not sure in the OPs case), then your B2B is going to be running most of the time when cruising. My alternator testing was done in late January, on a near-freezing day with the engine board off, and with a strong gusting wind. So I did doublee check it a few times as things warmed up, and it was fine- but something to at least bear in mind, I would have thought.

This is a very important point. I bought two Sterling B2Bs, but my smaller alternator can't even deliver 45 amps without overheating to above 100 degrees- which I thought was a bit too hot, given the normal running temp is less than 60 degrees. Luckily the Sterling has a half power mode, so I switched down to that and the B2B delivers about 30 amps, which the alternator can do without getting hot. My alternators are pretty low capability, and yours may well be able to put out larger current and still stay cool, but I would strongly recommend doing some testing before you spend a few hundred on a B2B. You need to find out how much current the alternator can put out and still stay under 100 degrees or so. When testing, run it for at least 20 mins- and bear in mind that a test in cold weather with the engine cover off wont closely reflect summer use. You can test out your alternators capacity by buying a 10 metre length of cable that is about 10mm square, and connecting the long cable between the lead acid battery and the lithium battery (or between the alternator and the lead acid, I'm not sure if it matters that much). I think the main thing is limit what goes into the lithiums, and keep an eye on the alternator temp every few mins. They can overheat really quickly, so be very very careful). The length of the cable will control how much current can pass through, so you can shorten the cable length in say 50cm steps. In this way you can test increasing levels of current, and find out when the alternator gets too hot. Its a lot of faffing fitting new lugs on the cable ends every time you chop half a metre off it, but its worth knowing your alternator's capacity. With this approach you can find out what your alternators safe limit is, and buy a B2B that delivers the right current. Or you could just carry on charging using a long length of cable- loads of people are charging lithiums in parallel just using 'long wire' method. With the money saved form buying a B2B, you could more panels and another MPPT, and that way you might get enough solar for hot water during the summer, so that you dont need to run the engine half so much anyway. I think 1000 watts would pretty much guarantee solar hot water for a few months in the summer, and would extend the number of months that you get enough solar for a fridge and lights etc. I have 1400 watts of panels, and yesterday I got just over 1700Wh of power from the panels, so no engine running was needed. Today not so good, but you get the point. This will mean buying a clamp meter (to measure how much current is going through a cable) and an infra red type thermometer to keep an eye on the alternator, but tbh there will be other costs anyway. Lengths of cable, lugs, a decent crimper to fit the lugs, the list does go on a bit. ETA- just a thought. Also test the alternator temp at different rpm, just out of interest. I found that if I charged at say 1300rpm, the alternator was able to put out more current before it started to overheat. Knowing that, I then bought a second B2B of lower power, and in winter when doing a static charge moored up, I switch on the extra B2B and up the revs to 1300rpm, and I can charge a bit faster with more current from the alternator. (That's not a suggested approach btw, I think I had gotten B2B fever at that point)

You forgot to mention my largely pointless array of B2B chargers! But I remember showing the young chap my precious lithium batteries- the cheeky bugger fell asleep when I was only 3 hours into my lithium lecture... I did warn him though, rule one is never take any notice of any advice I give! 🤣

My first reaction was 'we dont need no stinking badges'. Because obviously. But, maybe if you make them more specific to a person's specialist area? Like if you had 'grand vizier of cassette toilets', or 'supreme overlord of blacking'. That kind of thing. Or maybe even 'grandmaster of lithium batteries'. I'm not one- clearly- but it would give me something to aim for. Anyway, I'm just a humble 'veteran', so I should probably wind my neck in.

What them two blokes said. You could make a few quid from renting the new/smaller house (and then stay full time on the boat), but do go into any rental situation aware of the risks. If you get a bad tenant who decides to stop paying the rent, you might not make very much at all, and you could end up having to pay a legal bill if they need to be evicted. Property management companies are often not effective or worth the money you pay them- check the small print and the previous customer experiences. Some tenants are brilliant, some are a nightmare. Three of my brothers and my sister have rented houses out, and all of them have at some stage had major problems with tenants refusing to pay rent, and also refusing to leave. The air bnb thing (or a weekly holiday rental) sounds good in theory, and it means you dont have a long term tenant in situ who can turn into a major problem- but who is going to manage the cleaning and prep in between guests, if you are 100 miles away? And how much of your profit on a typical 2 or 3 day stay will be taken by the cleaners' fees? My brother ran a holiday cottage in North Wales for a decade, and he had ongoing problems with hiring local staff to properly clean and prepare the cottage in between guests. There was one period where he had to drive 80 miles down to the cottage every Friday evening, and do all the cleaning himself on the Saturday morning.

Yes of course- I'm sure you're right. I didnt know this, but it seems like starter motors can draw 400 amps or more, which is more than I would ever want to pull from my 400Ah lithium battery bank. I get worried when I draw 80 amps or so for the immersion heater, it feels like I'm stressing them more than is ideal if I want to get maximum life from them.

Apologies if I've misunderstood the issue, as I'm certainly no expert, but if I have got it right, your issue is that you don't want the lithium battery to pass any charge back to the lead acid battery. I have a roughly similar sort of thing. I have 2 lead acid batteries (one for each alternator). Eeach lead acid battery supplies charge to my lithium battery bank, via its own B2B charger. But I am concerned that the lead acid batteries are not being looked after very well in this setup, for a lot of the year. This is because In my case I have a lot of panels, so between March-Nov I hardly ever run the engine to do charging- the lithiums get everything from the panels. I probably start the engine once a week to do a cruise, but sometimes its once every two weeks. So in general, the lead acid batteries are not getting enough of a charge. When I do charge using the engine, it is done via B2Bs, which do not allow any charge back to the lead acid batteries. So in my case I have this issue where the lead acid batteries are not getting anything back from the lithiums, but I see it as a potential problem that will lead to the lead acids deteriorating. So I'm looking at possible ways of getting some charge back from the lithiums into the lead acids, or maybe a switch to divert the MPPT charge from the lithiums into the lead acids.

I fear you are mistaken sir. The man I met in Chester was a disgraceful specimen- a long-haired and unkempt troglodyte, barely able to write his own name, or form a coherent sentence. Even worse, he came from Warrington 😂

Next it'll be some weirdo on the Llangollen canal snogging lithium batteries. But they have no proof.