Tony1

Thanks Francis, its good to know the cheaper non isolated version would work ok. I have the 18 amp Orion B2B at the moment, and it certainly isn't as sophisticated or as configurable as the Sterling BB1260. But that said, it does work well for me. Mine is in a cupboard, and it stays cool and maintains it current delivery very well. I've found that increasing its charging voltage seems to result in a slight increase in charging current. So if increase the bulk charge voltage from 14.4v to say 14.6v, the current output will increase to 20 amps or more. I dont know enough to comment on the smoothness of its switching into operation, although I haven't noticed any belt slip. But I'm not impressed by the Sterling units. I dont like that they name the units by the input current, so my BB1260 unit doesn't put out 60 amps as I expected, but only 46 or 47 amps. It feels a bit misleading to name them that way. I also dont like that if you run them at the full 47 amps, the very noisy cooling fan is on almost all of the time, and the unit overheats every 5 minutes and throttles itself down to 29 amps for a minute or so. The heat they chuck out is ridiculous. I dont think they are particularly well made either. I was testing the current output of my two BB1260s earlier (to make sure they were ok in case I decided to sell them), and I'm now finding that one of them wont stay at full power for more than a few minutes. Instead it throttles down and the current output wanders between 18 and 20 amps. I restarted it and it went up to full power initially, and then dropped to 20 amps again in a few minutes. So that's a £300 unit that's no longer working as it should, after little more than a year of very light use. Its just very disappointing, and I feel that the victron kit will be more durable, even if it isnt as configurable.

You make a good point Brian, and I have thought about whether its worth the cost of changing over, and whether its more because I just really like the Victron gear and I'm looking for an excuse to change out the Sterling B2Bs. The victron bluetooth function is very handy, I will say that. If I'm cruising in the summer I'll have two MPPTs throwing loads of current in, plus two B2Bs, so being able to switch each of them on or off without pulling over is handy. And the victron units are more compact, so they'll fit better in the electrics cupboard. But does that extra convenience justify spending about £200? (and that's assuming I get a decent price for the Sterling units on ebay or on here). I have my BSS in November this year, and I want to tidy up the wiring and make sure it all looks neat and properly supported. Plus I heard there is a new rule that the examiners are not allowed to fail your electrics if you have victron stuff, because its all so lovely and sleek looking.

Thanks Tony, that's much appreciated. I do struggle with some of the manuals because I don't know all of the electrical terminology they use. In this case if I end up getting two units, there is almost £100 price difference between the different versions, so this time its worth some extra hassle to get to grips with it and use the cheaper model, as long as I can confirm its ok on a boat, and its simple to wire in.

One bit of advice that is always given, and worth mentioning here, is to make sure you hire a boat for at least a week, preferably in the Autumn or winter so that you get a taste of the more gritty aspects of the lifestyle- winter mud, lugging bags of coal, the rain, etc. There are some people who realise after a month or two on their boat that the compromises of living in a small space (or afloat) are not what they really want, so try a hire first. Odds are you'll like it, but if you don't its an expensive mistake. The other thing is an idea. Would it be possible to get a used boat for say £50-80k, and use the rest to buy a flat somewhere for say £100k (perhaps up north?), and rent the flat (managed by a property agency) out so that you have both an income (or you can save the rent income), and you still have an asset that will keep its value etc? My worry is the amount of money you lose on brand new boats can be horrific in some cases.

Hi folks, I'm hoping the electrical wizards might be able to advise on this question. I currently use two Sterling BB1260 units, capable of delivering a bit over 45 amps each- but they are permanently set to half power, because my alternators are not that great. I'm considering replacing these BB1260s with a pair of these 30 amp Victron units, which will give the same output, but which are more compact, and have the benefit of bluetooth control, which is handy if I'm at the tiller all day: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Victron-Energy-Orion-Tr-Isolated-charger/dp/B07YMQ4GTQ/ref=sr_1_5?crid=1Q5GWL281ZEXX&keywords=victron+orion-tr+smart+12%2F12-30a+isolated+dc-dc+charger&qid=1676627609&sprefix=orion+TR+smart+%2Caps%2C510&sr=8-5 But here's my query- I'm not sure if I need to pay the extra £50 or so for the 'isolated' version, or on a narrowboat, can you use the 'non-isolated' version of the unit? This is the non-isolated version: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Victron-Energy-Orion-Tr-Non-isolated-Charger/dp/B087CZC211/ref=sr_1_6?crid=14P01MU2I4YMP&keywords=victron+orion-tr+smart+12%2F12-30a+non-isolated+dc-dc+charger&qid=1676629112&sprefix=victron+orion-tr+smart+12%2F12-30a+isolated+dc-dc+charger%2Caps%2C484&sr=8-6 The only difference seems to be the isolated model has negative in and out connections, whereas the non-isolated has connection marked 'ground' Once again, many thanks in advance for any advice/info you are able to offer. Oh, and there might be a brace of Sterling BB1260s (plus a BB1230) up for sale in a week or two (at about half the price of a new unit), if anyone is interested.

I must confess Tony I don't know enough about adaptive charging to say if that's a factor in this scenario. The MPPTs are victron 100/50 units, and I just set the bulk charge to 14.6v, and rely on my SoC monitor to stop them charging at the correct point. I have a very unusual system for controlling the daily charging, which evolved largely by accident, through my own ignorance, because I wrongly assumed SoC was the best way to manage lithium charging. I ended up having a spare BMV712, so I set that up to monitor the state of charge, and when my batteries' SoC gets to 85% (or whatever I set it for), the BMV712 is then able to switch off the various chargers, since they all have a 'BMS input' socket. It uses a very thin wire, that carry a 12v signal from the BMV712 unit to the various chargers. What it means is that I always use the bulk charging phase, and I charge flat out until the batteries get up to 85% SoC, regardless of how high or low the charging voltage is. The normal method as you know is for the MPPT to rely on the voltage to make its decision on when to go into float, or to stop. That time they got charged to 75% SoC was just a test to see how things went if I didnt use my SoC monitor. The only charger that is not managed by my SoC monitor is the shoreline charger. I used it for 10 days or so in December when I was in Llangollen, and I did find that it was difficult to set the charging voltage in a way that would get the batteries up to a consistent SoC. Sometimes it would charge them to over 90%, and sometimes less than 80%. But that's not a problem, nearly all lithium users rely on charging voltage to make sure they get the batteries up to a good SoC, and they aren't bothered if the SoC gets to 75% or 95%. And who knows, maybe its better for the batteries if you introduce more variability to the SoC, instead of reaching a consistent 85% SoC every day like I do. Essentially my SoC monitor is overkill, but now that I've set it up, I'll carry on using it.

I have a new section on the mating habits of lithium batteries. Its sad that in this day and age, there is still a stigma attached to people who form an emotional relationship with a battery.

You do realise I now have to rewrite an entire chapter of my lithium lecture????

I think cyanide tablets might be the preferred option once we get 3 hours into the lecture.

Just a thought, but there is an interesting thing you see with lithiums (and its a behaviour that you'll observe as you get more used to them) :- if you charge at a low current level, they will get to a higher SoC before the charger goes into float (or stops), than if you charge at a high current. For example, I found that if I charged my lithiums at a high current level of say 100-120 amps (with both MPPTs going plus some engine charging with the B2Bs), they only got to about 75% full before the chargers all went into float. But if I charge at say 30 amps, the SoC can get up to 90% or more before the charger go to float. Most of the long term lithium users here go for a bulk charge voltage of 13.8/13.9v or so. So bear in mind when selecting a bulk charge voltage for the MPPT, that on some sunny days, because higher charging currents will push up the voltage compared to lower charging currents, you might end up with a slightly less full battery when you get home, in terms of the SoC it reached. (And our lithium expert Nick has confirmed this is a thing, its not just my fevered imagination). Strictly speaking this is part of the 5 hour lithium lecture, which I will be touring around the towpaths of Cheshire this Spring and Summer. Book your tickets early.

I do get the thing about space for the coal. I've had up to 12 bags on my roof at times, but I stack them on top of each other so I can just about manage- although it can be a faff if the centre lines go in between the bags etc. I guess its all about where we individually see our priorities. I feel as if I'm saving so much on diesel costs by having the solar that its worth the hassle of all the panels taking up a lot of my roof, but that wont be the case for everyone.

The way I controlled the alternator output current was to insert a length of cable after the alternator (or maybe after the lead acid, I cant be sure). I think the cable was 10mm sq, and if you start with say 10 or 15 metres of it, it will throttle down the current a lot- probably below 40 amps. Then you chop a measured length of it off and as you make it a bit shorter, it allows more current through. And in that way you can test the alternator at fairly precise current outputs. Lot of faffing, but you only have to do it once! ETA- the results for my alternators were very disappointing. At tickover, my 100 amp alternator could only put out 35 amps before it started going over 100 degrees, and even at a steady 1300rpm it could only manage 45-50 amps before getting too hot. 2nd ETA- I would really think about investing in some more solar though as I know you're full time liveaboard. As an example, today has been bright but not very sunny, and I've had 105Ah worth of charge from the panels, so no engine or genny running needed at all today- and at the moment that's the case about two thirds of the time.

Obviously I'm no expert and hopefully more knowledgeable folks will contribute soon, but I would say this: I would not do a daily bulk charge at 14.4v, because that will result in your lithium getting up past 95% full on a day to day basis, and that seems a bit stressful for a daily regime. They say it is better to go up to maybe 80% or 85%, and some say 90%, for the daily charging. I found that a bulk charging voltage of 13.8 or 13.9v works well, because it gets you battery up to about 85%, and as the voltage goes over that level, the unit goes into float. But I wouldn't use a float of 13.8v either, that is more of a bulk charge voltage. I would set a float of 13.1 or 13.2, which means the charging effectively stops once your battery is about 85% full. ETA- sorry I didnt check your attachment pic. I see that there is only one voltage option there that might be suitable, which is 14v. I think its a tad high, in that it will probably fill the battery to 90%, but we are not talking daily charging here- so that setting would be my choice if I couldn't pick 13.8 or 13.9v

If you can confirm the B2B never draws more than 45 amps that will help, but the lead acid may also take in some charge, especially during the first 10-15 minutes of charging, so I don't know if you can assume that the 45 amps for the B2B is the total current draw throughout the charging process.... But I understand that lead acid batteries rapidly build up a resistance to charging after the first 10-15 mins, that issue might not be a problem. You might see 60 amps total draw initially if the lead acid battery needs some charging, but maybe you'll only see that for 10 minutes, and then it might go down to a safer level. I hate to say this because I've been there myself with limited capacity alternators, but it might that your alternator (at engine tickover) just cant put out more than 40amps without going above 100 degrees. When my engine is charging at tickover (which happens often during cruising), I limit the current draw to 30 amps from each alternator, by setting the B2Bs onto half power mode. But when moored up and charging, I can up the revs and safely draw more current from the alternators. But I have a separate B2B and lead acid for each alternator, and its a fair bit of faff/expense tbh. Not recommended. Maybe you can set the Renogy B2B to half power when cruising, in case it spends long periods at tickover etc, but when moored up you can run the engine at say 1300rpm to cool the alternator a bit, and in that scenario maybe switch it to full power? This is why I suggested testing alternator temp vs output current at different rpm.

If I understand the setup right, I don't think you'll ever have a situation where the battery's internal BMS kicks in and disconnects it because the voltage is too high. The reason I say that is because you're using both a B2B and an MPPT to do the charging, and with both of those chargers you can set charging profiles so that they will go into float at say 14v (there might be a user defined profile you can set up). So the bulk charge voltage you set up on the charging profiles will be well below the high voltage cutoff limit that is set within the BMS. The internal BMS disconnect might not kick in until you get above 14.6v for example, or maybe higher. As soon as the battery voltage gets up high enough, the chargers will just go into float mode and basically stop the charging. I have my float set to 13.15v, which means basically no charging is happening. With lithiums I personally dont think you need a float phase, you just bulk charge them, and then stop the charging at the correct point. The BMSs I've seen have fairly extreme limits, for both high voltage and low voltage disconnects- which was why I suggested that you don't want to use that feature in day to day management of charging- its an emergency backup thing. Could the MPPT or the B2B ever fail in some way that they just carry on charging, so that the voltage keeps on going up to dangerous levels? I think its really unlikely, but in that unlikely event, you still have the internal lithium BMS disconnect as the backup to save the batteries, . During my testing I accidentally physically disconnected the batteries from the MPPTs when they were charging, and I got away with it- there was no damage. But thats not to say its a safe to do. But it may be that its such an unlikely event you can take the chance, knowing that the worst thing that can happen is it ruins the MPPT, but the batteries are safe because of their internal BMS disconnect? I do have an automatic physical disconnect switch that is managed by a BMV712 in the event that the voltage gets too high, but I only did that because my batteries dont have an internal BMS high voltage disconnect- which yours already do. Plus, all that stuff can start getting expensive, and in your case I might be tempted to rely on the charging units controlling the voltage safely.

I went through a decade or so when I was visiting London for work a few times each year, and those trips usually involved taking the tube during rush hour. It was packed every time I went on it, but in the summer it was unpleasantly hot in some carriages, and what with some walking at the other end, I was usually sweating before I even got to the meeting venue, which was a novel and most unwelcome experience. I remember being stood on the tube, with people uncomfortably close on all sides, and sometimes almost no room to move. And I used to think to myself- why are you people doing this day in. and day out? Are the attractions and opportunities of London really that great that they are worth this miserable experience? I've long had a theory that humans need a sense of having some living space, and preferably time outdoors, in order to stay mentally healthy. I suspect that for a lot of us, living in a crammed city of 10 or 15 million people, and travelling to work on packed trains or driving on badly congested roads, will over time lead to an unhappiness and a dissatisfaction- almost like a battery farmed chicken living in a giant overcrowded shed with barely room to move. The chicken, having never taken a step in the open air, doesn't understand why it is suffering, and what is wrong with its conditions- but on some level I believe it is deeply unhappy and badly affected mentally. I sometimes think that people living in giant cities are voluntarily giving themselves a little taste of the life of a battery farmed chicken. On a similar note, I don't think we really understand the cause and the nature of the feeling we get when we walk to the top of a hill or mountain, and we see an amazing natural view. We know its a great feeling, and we know it touches something inside us that no other experience really does. But I'm not sure we understand the workings of those feelings we get on a mountain top any better than a battery chicken would understand its feelings, if it was released and allowed to walk on grass in an open field for the first time in its life.

I'm reminded of this piece by Stewart Lee:

Yes, it does seem as if the risk of legal action is too great. My thinking was to have a thread which is basically just a list of names plus their trades, but giving no further details of the work. People considering one of the named companies could then PM the person who posted the name, and get further details in private. But it seems even that would carry too great a risk of action against CWDF. I feel its unlikely that the guy who meddled with my electrics has a string of happy customers, but a traders review site is probably the best place for this sort of info anyway. Perhaps we all need to make sure that we post onto these websites every time we use a professional, and start building up a body of shared knowledge about them.

My panels are about 1m by 1.5m, and I think they are almost 20kg each. The body the of the panels in my case seems rather thin and has a small amount of flex, so I wouldn't allow the force involved in supporting the panel (plus the mounting system) to rest on the body of the panel. My panels just don't feel robust enough to bear that weight without some risk of stress/damage to the panel surface. So when I tilt them, I always place the prop on the mounting frame. But who knows, maybe yours are more sturdy? certainly propping close to the outer edges (and next to the frame will help to stop the panel bulging with the weight etc. I'm sure its just a personal preference thing, but I would never place a prop/support for a large panel directly onto its lower surface, unless maybe with a large flat end plate to spread the load over the panel surface. But maybe I am just overly cautious.

Can I ask- are the supports resting against the outer frame of the panel, or against the flat plastic 'body' of it? Personally I would only use a supporting strut to hold up the frame around the panel, not to rest against the underside of the panel itself.

People like the ones I've dealt with need to be more widely known. Lets be real here- people are paying these clowns hundreds and hundreds of hard-earned pounds each week (money that they can often ill afford), for work that often has to be re-done. The issue of poor boat services and engineers is costing people an awful lot of financial pain. I honestly think its time to get the gloves off and set up a name and shame corner, as long as it can be done without legal risk. Your experiences are great, and I'm happy that the recommended people worked out well, but there are probably lots of people who dont have a lot of boating contacts, or who might not know how to avoid bad workers.

I dont want to give any more details in case the engineer concerned reads this forum (as I suspect many pros do), but as you said, its also about what they do afterwards to rectify a mistake.

Electrics are one of the worst areas in my experience. I once paid a guy to do an 'informal' wiring job between engine bay and batteries. He said he was qualified to work on gas but also had a good knowledge of electrics. Half an hour in, I could see he was ripping out cables from all over the place, and I got worried. I knew the job mainly involved inserting new cable, not taking out out old stuff, so I queried his actions. He said something to the effect of : 'these connections are not safe, I am obliged to rip them out, now that I've seen them' So there you have a guy essentially with no professionally-backed knowledge (or insurance cover), not formally hired (cash in hand), and not acting as per the rules of any professional body, but pretending to be bound by professional safety rules, and thus refusing to comply with my request to leave the existing wiring alone. It took a fairly heated 'discussion' to clarify things for him. and focus on what I actually needed doing. This will not be an isolated example, and these sorts of people are essentially preying on boaters who know no better, and often charging a lot of money.

I thought about that, and there is definitely a place for it. But there also has to be a place where we can share the names of the really bad operators, surely? I mean the really crappy clueless ones. I'm guessing there are specialist review sites available so maybe there's no real need, but then any professional who can put a head gasket on wrongly needs to be known about by other boaters. About 20% of the people who did jobs for me seemed to know very little more than I did, which is a terrifying thought.

That's a good point Tony, and should be taken into account. My concern is for those boaters who are left very unsatisfied after an attempt has been made to fix things (or the opportunity offered). Rather than make a potentially legal issue by allowing full descriptions of the problem, we could have a tick box style form where you select things like 'engine', electrics, or whatever, you just give the company name, the area the work involved (eg electrics), and then you give a score out of ten. No legally actionable details etc, just a score maybe? If anyone wants the grisly details you can do that via a private message?