tomkeeling

Mike, The 2005 BSS Guidlines state that boat gas systems must comply with PD 5482-3. From what you say, the BSS instructs BSS examiners to test to another, unpublished, standard, not PD 5482-3. I think the 2005 Guidelines were written and published before PD 5482-3 2005 was introduced, so we will be using the previous standard as I referred to earlier. This means us Gas Safe bods cannot prepare a boat for a BSS Guidline test because we don't know what test the BSS examiner will be using. I don't find this to be a problem, GSR engineers just test for longer regardless of the standards. Please call me if you want to discuss this further - it's easier than leaving messages on forums! Regards Tom

Lydford, Good luck. I hope it has helped Hi Mike, The test we carry out includes let-by testing etc. Please note I am trying to help Lydford and clarify this (as I see it) for you and other readers but cannot justify specific BSS policy! As far as I can see, the BSS is an organisation that has a set of guidelines that must be met. The LPG guidelines (i.e. 2005) are one such part of this. It makes no difference if somewhere out there there is a different set of rules (i.e PD 5482-3) as they simply don't come into the role of the examiner. They simply do not apply. The BSS are not instructing examiners to do something different to that published. We all carry out testing to the same format for every BSS examination and touch wood we have a very good record. If you're going to ask GW about it then he will have information available - we did have a newsletter/technical update about not adopting the 2-minute test. I suspect the 2005 guide will have been in writing for a fair amount of time by publication and may have been published before PD5482-3 2005 was published. There are differences between the BSS guidelines and the GSIUR and this is frustrating at times but it is what it is. I think you will find this a totally unrewarding challenge but I see your irritation. I think this is the last I will say on this, but I'd be surprised if GW has anything different to say, although he'll obviously be more expansive. Regards Tom

Mike, This is not quite right. If you check you'll find private boats fall within the scope of the GSIUR if used as a residence. I think this is important to note here as many posters here live on their privately owned boats. Yes you are right technically. I was generalising for examples sake. A residential boat in terms of LPG/BSS is another grey area as the definition of a residential boat is a problem. It's worth pointing out that the time taken to conduct a tightness test for purposes of the BSS is the same whether the craft is private, hire, residential. It's more or less the same in both the 2005 and 2002 guidelines. Now you've lost me. Appendix A of what 2005 regulations? Can you state their proper title please? I I don't know which regulations you mean, so I doubt the OP will either! The 2005 BSS guidelines are those that apply to privately managed craft. It is a revised and somewhat more lenient version of the 2002 regulations that are applied to commercially managed craft. I bought the dead tree version of the BSS guide and it is not mentioned in there either. This is definitely a problem then - regardless of what test is carried out people should have access to it. I'm sure the BSS office will provide it if asked but I agree it should be in the public domain. Ok, but can you provide a reference for this please? It is not in the BSS guide as far as I can see. Where are you getting this information from? I believe we use BS5482-3 1999 or something akin to that which states a 5 min stabilisation and 5 min test. The office should clarify this for you. I looked in one of my BSS issued books yesterday to get this reference for you. Regards, Tom

Magnetman, I have duly edited my post. Kind regards, Tom

Hi Mike, I just want to try and clarify this for you if I can, Setting aside for one minute Tom Keeling's information saying that PD 5482-3 2005 has been abandoned and the 1999 version re-adopted, the 'no pressure drop whatsoever' rule only applies to the network pipework. If you isolate all your appliances then test again there must be no pressure drop. For simplicity I ignored this in my last post as the examiner appeared to be testing thew whole thing with appliances connected. If tested with appliances connected, then pressure drops are allowable as per the table. The BSS test is simply the whole pipework and appliances, the lot. A private boat is outside the scope of the GSIUR and as such is not governed ny any law. This is why an examiner can test a gas system and not be gas registered. It is of course different for hire craft which do fall under the scope of the GSIUR. The process of gas testing used by the BSS is long established and is produced in Appendix A of the 2005 regulations, but I note it does not appear as part of the online guide. I hope I was not misleading earlier - the 2005 PD was never in use by BSS - it was thought of and then discarded altogether. If the gas technician (we are not necessarily 'engineers', the title engineer implies a degree qualification to many) is working for the yard he is quite likely he holds CONGLP1B "Changeover from Domestic Natural Gas to Domestic LPG for Boats", but don't bank on it. If he held the qualification he would know about allowable pressure drops with appliances connected. He may know about allowable pressure drops but it makes no difference. The BSS allows 0 drop. This appears to lead to installers using one standard and BSS examiners testing to another (apparently secret) standard. This is unacceptable. I'd appreciate it if you can raise this in your conversation with Graham Watts on Monday because this seems to be the crux of the problem. You (we all?) need to know the technical standard to which boat LPG installations are tested by BSS examiners, so gas technician can know how to test a system to ensure it complies BEFORE paying a BSS inspector to come and inspect/test. This test needs to be defined in writing and should be in the public domain and if not, we need to know why it is being kept secret! Gas Safe Registered installers do have different rules to the BSS. There are loads and it has been a long long long debated subject in BSS world. Soldered joints are acceptable under GSIUR and the RCD, but not under BSS. Open (and in fact unflued) instantaneous water heaters are still allowed under BSS guidelines, but obviously not under GSIUR. Just two of an in-exhaustive list. Hope this helps - please note that is all I can do as I can't speak for the BSS. I use both the 2002 (hire boat) and 2005 (private boat) regs daily as well as GSIUR so am just giving my slant on it. It is frustrating but life. Regards, Tom

It seems I was writing at the same time as you Lydford - I hope I have cleared up any confusion, and it seems I have answered your questions before they were asked. Regards, Tom Completely off topic but possibly helpful to some.

Mike FYI - The BSS tightness test, that the examiner has to carry out is over ten minutes - the whole PD5482-3 2005 two-minute test was discarded and never adopted by the BSS as any system leaking x millibar over 2 minutes usually has a leak. So the examiner has to allow 5 mins stabilisation and then 5 mins test. If in the second 5 mins there is a drop it is usual to wait longer owing to the peculiarities of testing LPG inside a steel box which is half submerged and half open to the elements. Regardless of what standards change the examiner has to follow BSS guidelines. I just checked which standard I follow and its BS5482-3 1999. When I had my last inspection by CORGI they asked which one I followed and I said that one. They said that was fine and the new one was going to be reviewed and probably dropped with regards to boats. Rightly so. Also - you can check any Gas Safe Registered engineer's categories on their website. You can even see a photo of them. Check it out - if you look me up it'll show my LPG, Domestic, Boats categories, although it doesn't show my LAV and RPH because they haven't updated for some reason. Lydford Castle Mike is right - I do agree there is a degree of incompetence here. For a start, it sounds like they are testing at 'lock-up' which is wrong. A Butane system should be tested at 20mb not 30mb. Propane is tested at 30mb. There is nothing wrong with taking a faulty appliance off and making the boat safer. You would do well to challenge both the examiner and the BSS manager as to which part of the law is being broken here. The BSS office will say it is down to the individual examiner's discretion, so in that case I would find another examiner and ask for your money back from the first bloke. Bear in mind that about £45 of the fee is wrapped up in certificate charges which your current examiner won't have to pay for if he doesn't issue a cert, so at least get that back. The strap-line of the BSS is 'Go boating, stay safe'. This is what you are trying to achieve - in fact the BSS will tell you that they are not in existence to keep people off the water. Is the examiner in ABSE? Copy them in on any correspondence with the office. Any let-by influencing the test can be eliminated by the main valve just inside the rear cabin. Have you tried isolating the appliances one by one and seeing if the system holds? The tar you describe is 'heavy ends' in the LPG separating over time. It'll lie in the lowest bends and will cause the regulator to pulse when operating. I'd be surprised if this is affecting the tightness test. You can remove the heavy ends by undoing a joint and blowing the rubbish out. But you don't want to start doing that now really. Other thoughts - manometers are very reliable instruments. Try using an inspection mirror to look around the whole of each joint - sometimes the leak test fluid bubbles where you can't see. Hope this helps. Keep the faith as Bon Jovi said. Tom

To the OP, If I fail an appliance at due to faulty burners then I advise the faulty burners be serviced/repaired (where possible) or the appliance removed/replaced. If I go back to a boat and there is no cooker, I record that on the appliance record. It's simple and within the law. 99% of the time a repair is effected or a new appliance present. The days of people sharing fire extinguishers etc are just a memory most of the time these days. With regards to your pressure drop on tightness - can you clarify the canister/hose arrangement for me? (i.e. do you have two canisters connected at a time to a wall-mounted regulator or a single bottle-mounted reg?) Do you have a main valve just downstream of the reg? A sure fire way to check for tightness without the peculiarities of LPG influencing the test is to use an air hand-pump and conduct the test with air - increase the pressure above operating - leak-test fluid on the joints will show a leak more clearly at a higher pressure. I had a leak that went up and down - it was on the test-point union. The test point was unsupported and me pushing my manometer tube over the test nipple caused a release of LPG for approx 10 minutes, which stopped as the union and pipe flexed back and stopped the leak. If let-by is present it will then go back up. There is no such thing as a leak that can't be solved with the right knowledge and equipment. Don't lose faith as much as it's a sod. By the way, the BSS manager can in some circumstances speak to licensing and enable you to license. May be worth a follow-up email. Regards Tom Keeling

To the OP, Run away if you still can. I'm struggling with a few points from the advert - admittedly I have only used ebay a couple of times, but there are things that make me think this is a scam of some sort. The re-lining doesn't look great, and there's ominous water staining to the port side cabin floor. The gas inlet just needs testing? A power shower is distinctly unlikely. The seller has feedback from only person so no track record. The item is listed by the seller as being in Great Yarmouth yet he says London. The general tone of the advert suggests embellishment: "Would suit a new-comer to the boating-world, but all you pro's out there will also see the potential to grab yourselves a bargain here" Suits a newcomer because you'll get conned. As a 'pro' this is one 'bargain I wouldn't be grabbing for 8k, seen or not. "Indeed, most of the work left is cosmetic!" The bloke sounds like a used boat car salesman. The craft does though, according to BSS records has a valid certificate to 26/10/10 if it is called Hazells Locks with index 502837. I hope you find it if that's what you want, but seriously, if you can still walk away, then please do.

As in this one? Thanks

Hello all, I am trying to find out the nearest bridge number to St. Leonard's church, Wychnor, on the Trent and Mersey. There is a sunken GRP cruiser there and I've been asked by the underwriter's to research the costs/feasibility of getting the boat up and out. The owner reports there is a car park not far from the boat but access is by track and the bridge to cross the cut may not be strong enough for a truck. Can anyone with knowledge or a cruising guide to hand have a look for me? Thanks, Tom

Hi all, I can thoroughly recommend Gareth Sanders - I've worked with him for over ten years and he is fully registered etc for LPG on boats. He is based in Stratford-on-Avon, not too far for either enquirers. His number is 07833 725322. For the record: it is gas joints that have to be accessible for BSS regs. Not the pipe itself. Read the online guide at www.boatsafetyscheme.com and I can't stress enough when dealing with LPG on boats, please take advice from qualified experienced marine fitters. Hope this helps, Tom Keeling

GSer. The idea of gas vents applies to motorhomes and caravans etc, as I believe the rules allow actually allow for a permissable drop during gas tightness testing (eg a leak) which we are not allowed on boats. As others correctly point out this is because there is nowhere for the gas to escape to. There is nothng in the BSS regulations that mentions this specifically as private craft do not fall under the scope of the GSIUR regualtions. Johnjo, "We are mounting the oven & grill above worktop height, so the system we have, vent just below gunnel works in our case, but obviously if floor mounted would need to be vented another way" Are you referring to a vent to the outside of the craft? LPG is heavier than air and will likely sink to the bilge if leaking so I can't see your vent being effective as any leaking gas will likely travel past your vent. The answer is to have your gas installed by a competent installer and to not have leaks in the first place. Consider installing a bubble tester so you can test gas tighness regularly. Far more use than a hole in the side of the boat! Someone also said they bought a replacement from B & Q (sorry can't find post at this moment) - I was just going to point out that you need to ensure any replacement LPG appliance fitted since 3rd Jan 2000 must have FSD/FFD or it will fail it's BSS examination. Hope this helps, it's not always easy to find reason/answers in gas matters. Tom

Old Son, According to the BSS your gas locker will not comply if it is a bolted hatch regardless of what gasket/sealant you use. Get confirmation for sure from BSS office, but we had a Tech update some time ago specifically about this. Regards, Tom

Jo, Thanks for posting back and also for my PM. I obviously was not offended in any way; I always thought forums were here to get advice and help and it was clear that was all you seeking. It seems every time a surveyor or examiner sticks their head above the parapet they become a target, which is why I rarely post on here. However having read your post I felt I had a duty of care to reply. I also thought it would be helpful! One thing is certain though; there is nothing on a boat that cannot be fixed, so don't despair, and liase with David as he is very honest and helpful. And remember you can always give me a call no matter how trivial or complex the question may be! Regards, Tom

Jo, All fuel tank connections are examined as part of the BSS examination. If you look at the fail sheet I produced for your boat you will see one of the items relates to leaking fuel on the top of your fuel tank. We do not wiggle fittings; leaks are apparent by sight/smell/touch but no wiggling is involved. The other thing is the fact I looked at your boat on Wednesday and you say the problem happened on Thursday in the space of four hours. So I am sure I did not cause said problem. Furthermore, I can't see how fuel can leak out of the top of your tank unless the tank is full to the brim or the boat moves and the fuel sloshes around. Even then it seems impossible that the amount of fuel you describe could escape on its own against gravity. Give me a ring if you need to - my number is on the sheets I left on board. Regards, Tom

My client took the craft away following a successful sale. They had, as all my clients do, a verbal report on the day. The client was, and I quote, 'too busy shopping' during our telephone conversation to take my address to send payment. The client said they would phone back later. They didn't. I presume they thought the survey 'satisfactory' as they proceeded with the sale. They have not, as my original post stated, received the written report, which details aspects they should know that are better detailed in a report, although I did report them verbally. The client who cruised away on the 23rd December, as stated, is likely to be the current owner unless a lightning sale with no survey took place over Christmas. I find that highly unlikely. The client was, as I say, too busy shopping. I thought at the time all is not right here, and fully expected them to walk away from the sale. I was surprised to hear they proceeded, even though I always insist people wait and read the written report. I always give a verbal report; it not only reassures the client one way or the other, but is also important if essential works are immediately necessary and dock time, as we all know, is limited. WJM; I thought by telling the facts that it may encourage people to help. If I had simply said 'where is this boat?', I feel sure having read your posts that you would be the first to say 'why do you want to know? I don't think anyone should reveal that, what if you're an axe murderer etc etc'. I am clearly not; and I am grateful to those on this forum who have met me, or researched my identity for supporting that. Tom

Hello all, It is genuine WJM. Look me up on google and call me to check. Ask around in the midlands, I have nothing to hide. I am not making allegations, I am telling the truth. This is not a witch hunt. I just want paying for the work I have done. Simple. Someone sees the boat. Tells me privately. I get paid. No fuss. Why would I make it up? I have better things to do with my time. Berty - I know what you're saying, why should I tar everyone with the same brush? I feel I should do something to protect my interests. It is annoying; I have never been one to charge 'up front'. I will obviously still extend goodwill to repeat customers. If I could do it differently I would. Data protection does prevent BW locating the boat for me. Thanks for the goodwill comments. Tom

Hello all. It is a sad occurance and a reflection on the changing nature of the canals that for the first time since starting in business I have someone evading fee payment for survey. Although the sale went ahead, unfortunately the instructing client is ignoring calls, letters etc. I would very much like to find the craft so I can visit and ask for the overdue payment. The instructing client bought the boat without having received the report and therefore is unaware of the detail of findings; some of which potentially threaten the watertight integrity of the craft. If anyone sees the craft, known as 'Nova Castria', index 78088, I would very much appreciate a private message or email (address can be found through any search engine). Although I have a land address for the client, it seems no-one is present to receive mail (e.g. recorded delivery is not signed for). The craft was surveyed at Hilmorton near Rugby, and was last seen heading towards Coventry on December 23rd. The instructing client is from Coventry so it is possible the craft is still in that area. It is a shame to have to do this, aswell as having to cease extending payment goodwill to clients prior to survey, which I have always done with no problem. Once bitten twice shy. Thanks if anyone can help. Regards, Tom Keeling Picture of the craft should display here:

I am friends with a chap who's ladyfriend is Tilly who used to crew Belfast paired with Belham (Belham may be incorrect info as i can find no trace). Her family used to crew at various times Sandpiper, Tern, Bittern, Edgeware, Banbury, Buxton, Moorhen, Quail, Kingfisher, Shovellor. I have been gathering photographs for Tilly from the net as she has none and is not computer literate. She may be willing to talk to you to assist with your page but I'm not sure. If you think it may be helpful then let me know. It may be a golden opportunity to include some first hand experiences. Kind regards, Tom

Hi all, As I understand it from an examiner's point of view I would not be able to issue a cert if I had reason to believe the boat is not complete. In the case of a shell, or part-fit, that is obviously the case. With existing boats that are undergoing some refit work I issue a cert having examined what I find at the time but always advise the owner by letter that it is the owner's responsibility to comply with the scheme at all times. With a new boat it is difficult because of the RCD/BSS contradiction. I would advise you to contact the Boat Safety Scheme office to clarify your situation, If I can help let me know. Regards, Tom.