HelenF

Quoting from the Waterways World article, Harral was selling approx 140 boats per year. Well, assuming the average priced boat is £40,000 and commission at 6%, Harral's annual turnover would have been £336,000. Allowing for the costs of renting an office and moorings and advertising space, I imagine there would be a fair sum left for earnings. So, how come it went bust?

Myth. (Just keeping up with the Joneses!)

I agree with Dor's sentiment. Why sympathise with any trader who liquidates the business then sets up again straight away having taken advantage of its 'limited liability' status? My sympathy would lie with any creditors who have not been paid. This may include me, as a taxpayer if the VAT & PAYE haven't been paid over. Interesting that their old website makes no mention of the 'limited' company status, yet they are listed as such on canaljunction. BTW companies are obliged to state their full trading name and status on their website. Well done cotswoldman for the FACTS!

More to the point, it was a shame that the BBC didn't interview a few boaters who DO live aboard. And pay their way with mooring fees, boat licence, electric bills, diesel and footwear bills. And they pay for it by working in the real world! That would have balanced out the views.

Get real! The provision of social housing by the government is not and never has been a 'profitable investment'. It is a cost to the country. Whatever newspaper you choose to read or whatever political party you affiliate to will tell you this clearly. Where have you been hiding? Oops, apologies, in reading your post right to the end again, I see that you have changed your mind. You are now saying that if boaters were to move on land it would cost the locals a few grand in housing benefit. Make your mind up!

I wholly agree with Kiki. A bath is a waste of time and resources. As to those items which 'may come in handy'. well, that too was a philosophy that had to be jettisoned when I decided to live aboard. What has replaced it is a feeling of liberation as you're not engulfed in 'stuff' and a feeling of control cos I know I only possess what I need. I am not losing space or paying for space to store things that I may need 'one day'. Why not acquire it when you need it then move it on to someone else who might need it when you've finished?

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Should we meet, I will prove not to be one for you! However, it does all depend on what I'm doing when you wave cheerily to me. I may well have an unhappy face if you happen to interrupt me counting my fake rivets and making me lose the tally.

Please don't stop! CarlT come back! Please! I am unemployed having been made redundant three weeks ago and today I read this thread and I can now see how to spend the rest of my days. Looking forward to DeanS next post.

Clicky here This page lists all of the relevant lock sizes on the english waterways system.

Are you sure there isn't just a hint of a weeny rant in here? I've numbered your observations and all ten of them are negative. I haven't spotted a positive one. Is it me? I reckon that living in a marina is no different to living on land. There are places and people that you like and place and people that you don't like. I can count on more than one hand places I've lived with politics between the neighbours over parking, trees, kids, the local pub, the landlord, you name it. The great advantage of a boat is that you can move it somewhere else if you don't like it where you are!

Whether BWML returns a profit to BW or not, do we need government support to operate marinas and boat brokerage and chandlery? I would suggest not. The very existence of BWML will be consuming resouces at BW. And for what? Shouldn't their time and money and resources be better spent managing the canal system for the benefit of the public, as it cannot otherwise be managed as a profit making entity by anyone in the private sector? Given the high number of new marinas which have been built in recent years, I suggest that there is not a shortage of entrepreneurs willing to operate these services for a profit. So, why do taxpayers need BWML?

Some pickings from the published accounts of BWML. I am a Chartered Management Accountant and here is my interpretation of the information contained therein. PROFITS BW are due to receive £1.7m from BWML in the form of profits share, rents and service level agreements. BWML made a profit of £975k being a 12% return on capital employed. Capital employed is the £8.1m as shown as net assets or shareholder funds on the balance sheet. This is pretty healthy as you can’t get 12% from the bank. HOWEVER, they made this return from their assets being the 18 marinas. But they don’t own them, so these assets are not on the books, as they are owned by BW. The true return would be this profit level plus £755k annual lease cost added back in = £1.731m divided by the £8m here plus the value of the marinas on BW’s books. The marinas cost BW £17.3m (gleaned by Dominic M via a FOI request). So, £1.73m profits divided by assets of £25.4m = 6.8% return. This is still a healthy return, but could they do better?? WORKING CAPITAL – OR CASHFLOW The financial accounts highlighted that one of BWML’s risks is their credit risk. They hold fortnightly meetings with each marina manager to ensure that the debts are kept as low as possible… Well, the numbers hold a very poor story. Debtor days is a standard calculation used to calculate how well the company is collecting in its debts. It is calculated as follows: Trade debtors / sales x 365 days. So, this year 2158,331 / 4275,656 = 149 days being 4.8 months. SHOCKING. The average moorer / lessee of buildings takes 5 months to pay!! Last year the figure was 4.9 months. (For the sales figure I took the turnover but less the income from retail, brokerage and repairs as I assumed that no credit would be given to customers for these types of transactions). So, given that they discuss this fortnightly, what action are they taking? It is also intriguing that the mooring fees are billed in advance and presumably customers have to pay in advance. Yet this calculation is based on NOT what has been billed and is due. Instead it is based on the revenue that BWML has recognised, ie, the time has lapsed, so essentially the average moorer has occupied the mooring for 5 months without paying. There is not information on BWMLs bad debt. I expect it would be sizeable. Creditor days is a way of keeping one’s money in the bank by paying suppliers late. It helps when you can’t collect money in from your moorers on time.. So, this year creditors of £4218,844 / admin exps £5811,708 x 365 = 265 days being 8.5 months. Prior year was the same. So, BWML pays its suppliers 8 months after the goods have been bought. INCOME Moorings – Prior Yr £4056,962 with 84% occupancy means 2505 moorings occupied on average out of a total available of 2982. So, average annual income per mooring £1619.50. - This year £4330,933 with 81% occupancy which means 2415 moorings occupied on average. On the face of it a 7% increase in income. But with the change in occupancy rates stripped out, the average income per mooring £1793 which is a whopping 11% increase on the prior year. These mooring incomes seem reaonable to me and in line with the going rates. Brokerage – Income £248,206 over 11 of their 18 marinas which is a paltry £22.5k per marina. - Say the average boat price is £40k, then BWML will earn 6% or £2400 per boat sale. This means they have sold 103 boats in one year, which is two per week or 9 per marina per year. - Let’s estimate the costs of this operation: Offices at Sawley(?) rent £15k, rates & office costs of £10k, total £25k. Three full time staff equivalents to take the boats onto the books, show people round and do all the sale paperwork £75k. So Income £248k less costs £150k leaves contribution to BWML of £98k which is less than £10k per marina. Another way of looking at the viability of their brokerage is to look at the 19 boats they have currently for sale:- - Future sales of the 19 boats may bring in 19 x £2400 brokerage fee = £45,600. If they take 4 months to sell, then BWML makes nothing at all, as their monthly costs amount to a similar sum (£150k / 12 mths x 4 mths = £50k for 4 mths costs). Brokerage is a numbers game. It only turns a profit if you have a decent number of boats for sale! STAFF COSTm 74 FULL TIME EQUIVALENTS WITH A WAGES BILL OF £1.6M = AVERAGE PAY OF £22K. Total payroll £1.9m gives a cost per employee of £26k. Pension contributions stand at 14% for the coming year. This year’s accounts showed contributions of 8.4%. I am classed as a senior manager and as such am entitled to an excellent 10% contribution by the company… For someone earning £22k per year, the average pension contribution of £1843 per year works out at £2310 before tax, so their basic pay is the annual equivalent of £24.3k. Should we compare this to the general marina management which comprises someone on say £8 / hr for 40 hr week which is £17k plus a free mooring worth £2k which is £2.5k before tax, so this gives a comparable pay of max £20k. BWML are paying £4.3k more. I am not saying that the staff should not earn decent money, but you cannot say that BWML are having to pay a higher rate because of a shortage of candidates……….. Directors – Prior Yr £182,030. This year £205,926 gives a £24k increase or 13% increase. May pay rise in 2009/2010 amounted to 1.3% which is just a tenth of this rise. Across the 6 Directors this equates to annual pay of £34,321, so I assume some of the directors are part time and non exec. Pension – a scary note advises that the pension fund has a £38.5m hole in it. Across just 74 staff and 6 directors this equals £475k EACH!! Since BWML was incorporated Oct 2003, which is 6.5 yrs ago, then BW has saddled this subsidiary with £5.9m for every year of its life. PS. If you are impressed, please get in touch as I need a job! I was made redundant today from a job in the private sector. I am thinking of applying to BWML for the job of credit controller.

Re-mortgaging generally is one of the cheaper forms of finance, as the interest rates are lower than unsecured loans. Bear in mind that you don't get anything for free, not least free holidays! You could add up the costs associated with owning and running a boat - see above posts. Then compare that to what you are prepared or would normally spend on annual holidays. If you are able to take several holidays a year then the boat may work out to be very cost effective. However, looking to the future, you have the choice of not incurring costs on holidays should you wish to save money, yet with boat ownership you may not be able to reduce your costs so readily. Anyway, given that you don't get anything for free, I believe that narrowboat holidays offer ever changing scenery, are very sociable and keep you fit!