Radiator problem

[BlueBelle1]

Hi, hope it was a Merry Christmas for you,

I managed to start up my boat for the first time and it runs ok apart from the smoke ..lots of it when the engine first fired up, think it's because it hasn't been run for I guess 6 mths or so...

Any advise please...There is a problem with my boat heating, the stove has a boiler in the inside top of the stove that heats the water for a radiator in the bedroom at the stern, anyway when it gets the water hot enough it blows'.. from a pipe and steam fills the boat ..it's a pipe that comes out of the expansion tank into another pipe the circulates the water to the radiator...boiling water comes gushing out..it was scarey when it first happened..there is now 12v to power the water pump and all seems to be in order with this..the only thing I can see is that the pipe maybe not quite long enough (it's secured into another pipe with a jubilee clip and blows out of the pipe it connects to)..I'm sorry I should have taken a photo it's difficult to explain in just words..I'm worried that if I change the pipe for a longer one and more secure that the thing will blow up from somewhere else..?

[Phil Ambrose]

Hiya, with a bit of luck MtB will be along shortly who will ask questions and offer helpful answers.

As for smoke from engine,what colour is it? Not uncommon for an engine to produce smoke when it has stood idle for a while, normally clears once she has warmed up but does depend on the colour.

Phil

[MtB]

Hi, hope it was a Merry Christmas for you,

I managed to start up my boat for the first time and it runs ok apart from the smoke ..lots of it when the engine first fired up, think it's because it hasn't been run for I guess 6 mths or so...

Any advise please...There is a problem with my boat heating, the stove has a boiler in the inside top of the stove that heats the water for a radiator in the bedroom at the stern, anyway when it gets the water hot enough it blows'.. from a pipe and steam fills the boat ..it's a pipe that comes out of the expansion tank into another pipe the circulates the water to the radiator...boiling water comes gushing out..it was scarey when it first happened..there is now 12v to power the water pump and all seems to be in order with this..the only thing I can see is that the pipe maybe not quite long enough (it's secured into another pipe with a jubilee clip and blows out of the pipe it connects to)..I'm sorry I should have taken a photo it's difficult to explain in just words..I'm worried that if I change the pipe for a longer one and more secure that the thing will blow up from somewhere else..?

 

It's hard to comment with any authority without knowing the design of your system. In particular, where in the system the pump is installed, and how the header tank, cold fill pipe and open vent pipe are arranged in relation to the pump. Also whether the flow and return pipes are both down at floor level or if one pipe runs from the stove to the rad at a level higher than the rad.

 

Could you follow the pipes and post a diagram?

 

Having said all that, my money is on the pump not pumping. This could be because it is not spinning (for whatever reason) or it is full of air not water.

 

MtB

[Ex- Member]

If you have an expansion tank in the system then it's likely a pressurised system. There's a pressure release valve below the expansion tank that can let off steam should the system over pressurise, this is usually caused by overheating which is sometimes caused when forgetting to turn on the CH pump. I note you mention

there is now 12v to power the water pump

 

 

So I think the pump is running and now the system has settled and all will be ok. So inadvertently you have tested out one of the safety devices apparent in these systems.

 

You might however want to check the pressure in the system is still ok, about 1 to 1.5 bar. There should be a small pressure gauge under the accumulator tank as well.

 

The other thing to look out for is the Air release valve usually situated above the stove somewhere, this can release air in the system , it might look like this

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=air+release+valve&espv=210&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&source=iu&imgil=g74XZ9JCqKTvPM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcQUXjGGp36hI4p1Ow33UiJ-ExZ7UHjOybtC-lMja-fh6w2kW6Ti4g%253B774%253B436%253Bi1xf_aa4pi3VNM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fshangyuvalve.en.made-in-china.com%25252Fproduct%25252FItQxlFmjjpnJ%25252FChina-Micro-Air-Release-Valve-ARVX-Automatic-Air-Release-Valve.html&sa=X&ei=s1fAUsH0AYrH7Aalg4CQCg&sqi=2&ved=0CFcQ9QEwBA&biw=1536&bih=756#facrc=_&imgdii=g74XZ9JCqKTvPM%3A%3BgTChqVdcsDnG_M%3Bg74XZ9JCqKTvPM%3A&imgrc=g74XZ9JCqKTvPM%3A%3Bi1xf_aa4pi3VNM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimage.made-in-china.com%252F2f0j00VUQtlmTFFpEa%252FMicro-Air-Release-Valve-ARVX-Automatic-Air-Release-Valve.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fshangyuvalve.en.made-in-china.com%252Fproduct%252FItQxlFmjjpnJ%252FChina-Micro-Air-Release-Valve-ARVX-Automatic-Air-Release-Valve.html%3B774%3B436

 

If you system needs pressurising then you might need a plumber, we do our own, but then again we fitted our own system so know how to do this.

 

As Phill says, Mike is the plumber and will know more.

 

Edited to change "pressure release valve" to Air release valve

Edited December 29, 2013 by Julynian

[smileypete]

There should be an open header tank with a large-ish pipe going up above then pointing down into it, and another pipe from the bottom, looking similar to the one on the left of this diagram:

 

 

 

If the system boils due to pump failure then the steam and water comes out of the large top pipe into the tank, then the water can return through the bottom pipe.

 

A photo would definitely help, if it's a solid fuel stove with backboiler then the backboiler MUST be connected to header tank that is open to the air and not sealed in any way. Otherwise it's probably quite dangerous and the stove must not be used til the system is checked over and put right by someone suitably competent I'm afraid.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited December 29, 2013 by smileypete

[BlueBelle1]

Thanks guys for the info, my response is a little limited tonight sorry as I just got in from a 10hr work day

I'll take some photos of the system, I'm not good with plumbing..as for the smoke ..its greyish in colour...think it will be ok with a good run,,the engine is probably old being a thornycroft...I love the sound it makes..

[MtB]

Thanks guys for the info, my response is a little limited tonight sorry as I just got in from a 10hr work day

I'll take some photos of the system, I'm not good with plumbing..as for the smoke ..its greyish in colour...think it will be ok with a good run,,the engine is probably old being a thornycroft...I love the sound it makes..

 

Hmmm.... burning oil then. But who cares, if it runs!

 

A Thornycroft eh? Some of them are a beardy's delight, others a BMC 1500 in a pretty dress.

 

How many cylinders has yours? Two I suspect if you love the sound. I'll give you fifty quid for it....

 

 

MtB

 

 

 

(edit to add the winky)

Edited December 30, 2013 by Mike the Boilerman

[BlueBelle1]

Thanks MtB, fifty quid, it's still running for now lol...

here is a pic of the heating thingy....the bottom pipe has now been replaced so I'll be finding out later if it heats the radiator up or blows up again, I'm getting a bit scared of it now, it's frightening all that steam and boiling water gushing out....

 

How much water should be in this plastic tank (is it the expansion tank?)...( I added the photo to my blog Radiator Problem as I couldn't upload the photo here, tried with flickr uploader using the URL ) anyway if you could take a look please....

[smileypete]

OK thanks for the pic makes things a lot clearer:

 

 

To me it looks like a sealed expansion tank from some sort of vehicle with a screw cap on top.

 

If it's connected directly to the solid fuel stove back boiler as I suspect, then there MUST be an open header tank that cannot be sealed in any way, otherwise there could be a buildup of pressure and a dangerous steam explosion with serious injuries resulting

 

Would be good to get someone with the right competencies for solid fuel heating on boats to look at it, should be able to give a fixed quote for a look see, maybe a good reputable local plumber or boatyard. Then see how much it would be to put right or even just decommission the back boiler for now.

 

It MAY work OK from now on without the cap on but there's NO guarantees. There should be a wide bore pipe from the top outlet of the back boiler leading up and pointing down into an open header tank, as show in the above diagram, which is not what you have. These plastic expansion tanks often reused from vehicles are usually fundamentally unsuitable I'm afraid, especially plumbed in the way they often are.

 

Hate to say this, but did you get a full survey before buying the boat and if so what did the surveyor say about the heating? Sorry to put a downer on things but best sort it and be safe.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited January 3, 2014 by smileypete

[BlueBelle1]

Hi, thanks for this advise, yes maybe I should have had a survey but I didn't and it's too late to worry about this now...anyway yes the stove its self has 2 metal pipes coming out from it and these are located in the front bow of the boat directly behind the stove,,,in the space under the bow there is a blue tank I think this is a calorifier tank ? there are pipes coming from a water tank that is in the very front of the boat, you open the lid there and fill in the water directly (is this what you mean by open header tank?) I've totally no idea..then there is a waterpump this works on 12v and pumps water to all the taps and shower on the boat...there is another pump located on the right side (the side of the expansion tank) also in the front bow..

[smileypete]

I'd expect it's far safer overall to run it with NO cap on the expansion tank from now on, but with some sort of loose cover to stop it spitting coolant out if it boils. Throw the cap away or store it off the boat so it won't end up in the hands of a later owner.

 

If it does still boil or not work properly with the pump running and no cap fitted, then best get a reputable local plumber or boatyard person to look at it and ask back here for help.

 

In the longer term it would be better to have a proper header tank fitted, then there's no chance of a later owner coming along later and putting a sealed cap on the expansion tank (with possibly disastrous consequences), which they might be tempted to for some misguided reason if the system boils and spits coolant out.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited January 5, 2014 by smileypete

[BlueBelle1]

Morning and thanks again for the advise..I tried it with the cap off and as the water heats up it fills up to the top and starts to pour out..it doesn't have any coolant in it at the moment..when I put the lid back on it glugs and gulps a bit then the water in goes back to just over half full...yesterday I had the stove on all day just kept it running on low with just a log and a few pieces of coal to keep it running, the radiator got slightly warm after a few hrs, the pipe to the radiator was hot, I bled the radiator until water came out there was only a little bit of air in it...I'm not sure what's going on with it, and I'm quite scared of it really, makes me nervous , so I'm using very timidly at the moment, I would like someone to have a look at it for me and make sure it's safe..I'm near Parbold if anyone can help, I can pay for the work to be carried out and made safe..thanks.

Edited January 6, 2014 by BlueBelle1

[smileypete]

Sounds like a right can 'o worms.

 

Something that might help in the meantime is have a firebrick put inside the fire in front of the back boiler so it doesn't get so much heat from the fire and is less likely to boil, as long as the firebrick can't block the airway up the flue at all.

 

If that stops the header tank overflowing problem for now, then it buys some time to have it looked at and properly sorted, maybe ask around to see if there's a reputable boatyard nearby who can take a look.

 

If sorting the whole lot is too costly at the moment, maybe the backboiler can be removed, the holes sealed and a firebrick put in instead in the meantime.

 

Hopefully after this things will only get better, the first months of boat ownership are often the hardest and most difficult (and can be a bit expensive - ouch!)

 

One last important thing to mention with solid fuel stoves is that it's absolutely essential to have a CO alarm, better still to have two CO alarms of different makes, one of them with a display showing CO level. Amazon or places like B&Q have good deals here and there, Kidde is a pretty good make. Please be safe...

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited January 6, 2014 by smileypete