How old is my engine?

[Big Steve]

Perkins 4.99 no. 7400529H any ideas? I've searched on Google but got nowhere. Local diesel man says it's older than me, 56. It certainly goes better than me.

 

Steve

[Tootles]

Perkins 4.99 no. 7400529H any ideas? I've searched on Google but got nowhere. Local diesel man says it's older than me, 56. It certainly goes better than me.

 

Steve

Hi Steve. This is the only reference I can find, but it may help you IF it is the 'EA' series.

 

'EA 4.99 Four cylinder, 99 in³ (1.6 L) diesel engine. Wet sleeves, used in London Taxis.'

 

Might help you forwards a bit. If I can find out a production year I will let you know.

Dave.

[Timleech]

Hi Steve. This is the only reference I can find, but it may help you IF it is the 'EA' series.

 

'EA 4.99 Four cylinder, 99 in³ (1.6 L) diesel engine. Wet sleeves, used in London Taxis.'

 

Might help you forwards a bit. If I can find out a production year I will let you know.

Dave.

 

They go back to the early sixties certainly, but how much further than that I don't know.

Early diesel Transits had them, in the late sixties.

 

Tim

[david and julie]

They go back to the early sixties certainly, but how much further than that I don't know.

Early diesel Transits had them, in the late sixties.

 

Tim

 

I don't know how similar they are but I think Transits had the 4-108 engine-and gutless they were too.

 

Just had a look on the history of the Transit (out of curiosity) and indeed you are right Tim. They first fitted the 4-99 and changed to the 4-108 in 1966.

Edited July 27, 2007 by david and julie

[Hairy-Neil]

................ used in London Taxis.'

 

I believe they were used in the Winchester and possibly the Beardmore Taxi. Certainly were never fitted as standard in the Austin taxi, though some were probably fitted in 1950's FX3's as a conversion.

[Timleech]

I don't know how similar they are but I think Transits had the 4-108 engine-and gutless they were too.

 

Just had a look on the history of the Transit (out of curiosity) and indeed you are right Tim. They first fitted the 4-99 and changed to the 4-108 in 1966.

 

Gutless yes, but reliable unlike the awful Ford York diesel which replaced them

 

Tim

[Tootles]

Gutless yes, but reliable unlike the awful Ford York diesel which replaced them

 

Tim

I must admit that even though I worked as a mechanic at the time for a large concern, I dont remember ever coming across a 4.99 in a Transit, only the York, which as you say, was gutless. The petrol version had that shocking V4 that ate cylinder head gaskets, (and cylinder heads!)

I believe that it was the Beardmore that had this engine, (4.99), but a touch before 1960.

[Hairy-Neil]

I believe that it was the Beardmore that had this engine, (4.99), but a touch before 1960.

 

The Winchester taxi definitely utilised the Perkins.......info here for the anoraks among you.....:- http://www.london-taxi.co.uk/taxi/taxicab-history.htm

 

The factory Beardmore taxi had Ford Zephyr running gear though I know some were converted to diesel as I've seen one on my travels. The obvious choice would be the Perkins as this was fitted to the Ford 400E van (that also used the Zephyr drive train), the forerunner of the ubiquitous Transit (though in the early days diesel Transits were a rareity). The Perkins also found a home in contemporary Bedford and Commer vans.

[Timleech]

I must admit that even though I worked as a mechanic at the time for a large concern, I dont remember ever coming across a 4.99 in a Transit, only the York, which as you say, was gutless. The petrol version had that shocking V4 that ate cylinder head gaskets, (and cylinder heads!)

I believe that it was the Beardmore that had this engine, (4.99), but a touch before 1960.

 

I drove quite a few miles in Perkins engined transits, they were slow but sure.

With the York the chance of reaching your destination was much reduced! They were an early application of toothed cambelts to diesels, my employer had one which went through IIRC 4 cambelts within 12 months from new.

He'd tried to get hold of one of the last Perkins-engined Transits because he didn't trust these new fangled elastic band thingies. He was proved absolutely right

 

 

Ford in Germany did a very similar V4, I had one in a Saab 95, it was a good motor.

 

Tim

Edited July 28, 2007 by Timleech

[Tootles]

I drove quite a few miles in Perkins engined transits, they were slow but sure.

With the York the chances of reaching your destination was much reduced! They were an early application of toothed cambelts to diesels, my employer had one which went through IIRC 4 cambelts within 12 months from new.

He'd tried to get hold of one of the last Perkins-engined Transits because he didn't trust these new fangled elastic band thingies. He was proved absolutely right

Ford in Germany did a very similar V4, I had one in a Saab 95, it was a good motor.

 

Tim

 

I'm not sure if the German V4 was the same engine, Tim. Here they put them in the second pattern Corsair as well as the Transit. (The first Corsair's had the well proven 1200/1500cc crossflow.) In the cars they wern't too bad, but in the Transit....They were a badly balenced engine, having to have large balance weights on the front of the crankshaft. Fords V6 however was fantastic, so much so that a limited number of Transits had this unit fitted, even though it meant moving the front bulkhead back in production. If my memory serves me correctly, the V4 was rated at 2000cc, the V6 at either 2600, or slightly over-bored at 3 Ltr. This last one was the best of the English Vees, and ended up in the Mk4 Zodiac as well as the Capri.

Dave.

[Timleech]

I'm not sure if the German V4 was the same engine, Tim.

 

Dave.

 

No, it wasn't the same engine but quite similar in a number of ways IIRC

 

Tim

[Tootles]

No, it wasn't the same engine but quite similar in a number of ways IIRC

 

Tim

 

Thinking back, wasn't it also fitted in the Taunus??

[Machpoint005]

Ford in Germany did a very similar V4, I had one in a Saab 95, it was a good motor.

Tim

 

Thinking back, wasn't it also fitted in the Taunus??

 

The Saab 96 (beetle) and 95 (station wagon) originally had a 3-cyl 2-stroke. When that was getting a bit long in the tooth in the late 60s, Saab looked around for a relatively unburstable off-the-shelf engine that would fit ahead of the front axle (longitudinally) like the 3-pot stroker. The Taunus 1500 was the answer, and it was fitted to all 96s/95s until production ended in the mid-1970s.

 

Yes, I used to have a real 95 too (not a 9-5 GM clone).

 

Ian

 

Edited to add: I think the reason for the enormous balance wheel was because the Ford firing order was different from the norm back in those days so both LH cylinders fired, then both RH cylinders - or perhaps it was because they fired alternately: anyway they were needed to balance it. The engine had a distinctive 'lumpy' sound, I remember.

Edited July 28, 2007 by Machpoint005

[Timleech]

The Saab 96 (beetle) and 95 (station wagon) originally had a 3-cyl 2-stroke. When that was getting a bit long in the tooth in the late 60s, Saab looked around for a relatively unburstable off-the-shelf engine that would fit ahead of the front axle (longitudinally) like the 3-pot stroker. The Taunus 1500 was the answer, and it was fitted to all 96s/95s until production ended in the mid-1970s.

 

Yes, I used to have a real 95 too (not a 9-5 GM clone).

 

Ian

 

Mine was actually a 96 (saloon), misremembered.

 

It had a twin-choke Weber carb, which made it reasonably lively compared to the standard offering.

I remember driving from Lochgilphead to Tarbert (Loch Fyne) which is a fairly 'long & winding road', in a bit of a hurry.

Halfway there I realised the plain saloon car behind me had two blokes in uniform in the front. Decided I'd best be careful, so stuck religiously to speed limits & didn't do anything silly but kept up the pace.

When I pulled up in Tarbert, two coppers got out of the other car & came up to me with broad grins on their faces

They complimented me on my driving, apart from suggesting I shouldn't hurry so much, & asked whether it was the standard engine as they had had great trouble keeping up with me

 

Tim

[tony collins]

I don't know how similar they are but I think Transits had the 4-108 engine-and gutless they were too.

 

Just had a look on the history of the Transit (out of curiosity) and indeed you are right Tim. They first fitted the 4-99 and changed to the 4-108 in 1966.

 

 

When I first built my boat I bought a 4-108 out of a Transit. I wrote to Perkins at Urmston, in Manchester (are they still there?) giving the engine no. and they were able to tell me that my engine was rebuilt by them at Urmston in 1964, and supplied to Ford but were unable to tell me the original date as it was given a rebuild engine No. at that time. I can only assume that it was an early failure and was rebuilt under an exchange scheme. Why don't you try doing the same?

 

I thought the precurser of the 4-108 was the 4-107, so I suppose your 4-99 could be even older that that!

 

Tony.

[Tootles]

Mine was actually a 96 (saloon), misremembered.

 

It had a twin-choke Weber carb, which made it reasonably lively compared to the standard offering.

I remember driving from Lochgilphead to Tarbert (Loch Fyne) which is a fairly 'long & winding road', in a bit of a hurry.

Halfway there I realised the plain saloon car behind me had two blokes in uniform in the front. Decided I'd best be careful, so stuck religiously to speed limits & didn't do anything silly but kept up the pace.

When I pulled up in Tarbert, two coppers got out of the other car & came up to me with broad grins on their faces

They complimented me on my driving, apart from suggesting I shouldn't hurry so much, & asked whether it was the standard engine as they had had great trouble keeping up with me

 

Tim

 

The Saab 96 (beetle) and 95 (station wagon) originally had a 3-cyl 2-stroke.

 

Was this the famous Auto Union two stroke 3 in line?? I had a 'MUNGA' jeep years ago with one in. The early models had a 'paddle' to mix the oil with the petrol, whilst the later had posi-loob oil injection. Cracking little motor.

Dave.

[Timleech]

I thought the precurser of the 4-108 was the 4-107, so I suppose your 4-99 could be even older that that!Tony.

 

No, the 4.107 was a wet linered version of the 108, usually supplied for marine applications etc.

 

Tim

 

Was this the famous Auto Union two stroke 3 in line?? I had a 'MUNGA' jeep years ago with one in. The early models had a 'paddle' to mix the oil with the petrol, whilst the later had posi-loob oil injection. Cracking little motor.Dave.

 

AFAIR the Saab engine was made by Sachs.

 

Tim

Edited July 29, 2007 by Timleech

[Supermalc]

I can add to the V4 Transit knowledge. Some had a balance shaft, and some did not. These Transit engines were often in need of rebuilding/reconditioning, which was my job at the time.

 

We were puzzled by one of these, as there appeared to be a lump of casting that stopped the crankshaft from turning. And so we discovered the balance shaft (think it was the V4, not the V6). However we subsequently had units in to recondition that did not have a balance shaft.......who decided, or what critera decided remained a mystery.

 

As to the Auto Union 2-stroke. My friend and mentor turned one into one of the first 'super-minis' by replacing the blown engine with a 1500cc Ford, the one before the crossflow.A few years later another man fitted a 1500 BMC (An MGA engine) into one. It was however poorly engineered, a 'spout bolt job' as it was called.

 

I knew quite a lot about this car, as it was my first.I also know of it's final resting place; in a hole in a field, now filled in. It did however have a good registration number VXP 123

 

 

Edited July 29, 2007 by Supermalc

[Big Steve]

I believe that the order of production was 4.99, 4.107, 4.108.

From the specs. the 4.99 and 4.107 are the same engine but the 4.99 has a smaller bore of wet liner. The 4.99 is shown as 48 BHP at 4000rpm, the 4.107 41 BHP at 3000 RPM, but with more torque at lower revs. I'm told that the 4.107 turned out to be a crock, so the 4.108 was produced. This didn't have liners, but was exactly the same capacity as the 4.107 (107.4 cu. inch). It also produced 55BHP at 4000 RPM.

I've mailed Perkins about the engine number, they show dates on their web site but only for post 70's stuff.

 

I've been surprised to find that you can still buy a 4.108, refurbished to as new for about £2200. Sounds like a bargain.

 

Another interesting snippet from the manual, on page 4, under Safety Precautions, it says, "Do not use these engines in marine applications." Perhaps inland waterways are not classed as marine?

 

Thanks for your inputs

 

Steve

[Timleech]

Another interesting snippet from the manual, on page 4, under Safety Precautions, it says, "Do not use these engines in marine applications." Perhaps inland waterways are not classed as marine?

 

Thanks for your inputs

 

Steve

 

There certainly was a marine version of the 4.107 produced (by Parsons), I believe 4.108 also.

One reason for the 'not for marine' comment may be that this range did dirty the oil very quickly, and that would have been worse in a marine duty. The marine version probably had a bigger sump which would help.

 

Tim

[Tony Brooks]

There certainly was a marine version of the 4.107 produced (by Parsons), I believe 4.108 also.

One reason for the 'not for marine' comment may be that this range did dirty the oil very quickly, and that would have been worse in a marine duty. The marine version probably had a bigger sump which would help.

 

Tim

 

Some or all heat exchanger version of the 4-108 and I think the 4-107 also had an oil cooler fitted at the end of the main heat exchanger core. Perkins were adamant this had to be used, but in inland (non-tidal Thames) use the oil never got hot enough to evaporate the condensation out of the oil. I had a couple that had no oil pressure and upon investigation the oil was like jelly - take the sump off, invert it and shake it out! One was like it when we received it from the Broads and it was owned by the Union Castle Line for use by officers - a bit like the boats owned by banks (Natewester, Spreadeagle etc.)

 

On our own boat I disconnected the oil cooler and that solved the oil problem without going to silly oil change intervals. (We mainly operated BMC 1.5s and 2.2s so only had one Perkins, a few Lister SL4s and one Volvo MD2.

 

Tony Brooks

[Big Steve]

Hi Tony,

 

This is the same engine I was asking advice re erratic tickover, looks like you were right, fuel filter FULL of crap. Also none of the injectors atomising correctly and injector pump elements worn, and can't find a new one.

Also fuel filter is a Fram, the number of which is no longer listed.

 

Problems, problems.

[Tony Brooks]

Hi Tony,

 

This is the same engine I was asking advice re erratic tickover, looks like you were right, fuel filter FULL of crap. Also none of the injectors atomising correctly and injector pump elements worn, and can't find a new one.

Also fuel filter is a Fram, the number of which is no longer listed.

 

Problems, problems.

 

I have no idea about a 4-99, but the 4-107 & 8 used a DPA pump and they do not have elements and lots of parts should be available for the BMC boys. I stand to be corrected, but if this is an inline pump unless it is a very odd one I find it all but inconceivable that elements are not available - who says they are not? An injections specialist outfit or an "engineer"?

 

Go on uk.rec.engines.stationary and ask about elements I expect someone like Peter Forbes will put you on the right track.

 

If the fuel filter element is really de-listed with no suitable ones available I would fit a BMC type one Delphi (ex CAV/Lucas) sell a range and you can choose form spin ons or separate element ones - An FS type should do - 10 gallons per hour. You will need a metal drain plug or a 6mm setscrew though for inland marine use. Make sure you buy sufficient union "bolts" and olives though. Having said that I am sure a half decent injection specialist will be able to match the old element.

 

Tony Brooks

[Big Steve]

Perhaps I've got the terminology wrong, the chap doing the job, an injection specialist who has being doing these pumps man and boy etc., called the small pistons in the injector pump "elements". They are too small steel bars which oscillate in a horizontally opposed fashion, creating the high pressure for the injectors. He says he has been unable to find a new assembly, and the old one is worn. It's a CAV hydraulic governed pump, they call it a DPA distributor pump in the manual. The element in the fuel filter is a Fram C11846-PL, I haven't tried to buy a replacement yet, but can't find one via Google.

 

Have just had an E mail from Perkins telling me the engine was made in 1981, much later than I expected.

 

Steve

[Tony Brooks]

Perhaps I've got the terminology wrong, the chap doing the job, an injection specialist who has being doing these pumps man and boy etc., called the small pistons in the injector pump "elements". They are too small steel bars which oscillate in a horizontally opposed fashion, creating the high pressure for the injectors. He says he has been unable to find a new assembly, and the old one is worn. It's a CAV hydraulic governed pump, they call it a DPA distributor pump in the manual. The element in the fuel filter is a Fram C11846-PL, I haven't tried to buy a replacement yet, but can't find one via Google.

 

Have just had an E mail from Perkins telling me the engine was made in 1981, much later than I expected.

 

Steve

 

 

Yes - that's what I thought. Unless they are an odd dimension I would have thought ones from the BMC pumps would fit. I think its only the settings, possibly the governor and possibly parts of the case that alter from engine to engine. Get the pump number (should be on an oval plate fixed to the pump body) and ask LS UK (Delphi) direct about the availability of pump plungers.

 

I just can not get my head around the lack of DPA spares because they were fitted by scores of manufacturers all over the world.

 

The Filtrauto website (http://www.filtrauto.com/) lists that filter as currant and why waste time and risk your cash by looking on Ebay. Go to your nearest Motor factors (The national one trades under Partco/Unipart/Brown Brothers and there are loads of local and regional ones and simply ask for it. It may not be a Fram but it will be an equivalent. I expect it will cost less that £5 with no O&P. If you want to maximise your chances of a good discount its Dirty jeans and shirt, eau de diesel and a bit of bum cleavage and sound like you know what you are talking about. I fully expect LS UK to stock them.

 

Tony Brooks