V-Welds

[NB Willawaw]

Not being a welder and having limited knowledge of welding, can somebody explain to me what is meant by the term V-weld and what the advantage or application of a V-weld is ?

 

Best Regards

 

Mark

 

NB Willawaw

Banbury - Oxford Canal

[Gary Peacock]

A V weld is commonly used to weld sections of base plate where a surface butt weld would not achieve sufficient penetration.

 

The edges of the plate are ground to a chamfer when the plates are butted up this forms a V several stick welds are then run down the V to stitch the plate together forming a very strong weld. This also makes it unnecessary to flip the base plate to weld the other side.

 

Thats in a non welders layman's terms!

 

Gary

[Richard Bustens]

The edges of the steel that are to be welded together are ground back at a angle to each other forming a V Grove when it is then welded together it is easer to fill the complete depth of the V with steel coz you start the ark at the bottom of the joint and fill up , if you don't do this you may end up with just a weld on the top bit of the two sheets.

[Yamanx]

A V weld can be ground off and sanded flat where as a surface weld would be ground away

[NB Willawaw]

OK thanks. Got it !

[DHutch]

OK thanks. Got it !

 

[onionbargee]

There's no such thing in welding terms as a " V weld'', though i've seen it on an ad for Heron boats, it's just nonsense. ( asuming the welder is qualified, and there are many who are'nt ! ) All the plate joins on a boat will be V'eed, theres no other way of doing it.

[John Orentas]

I think people are making a distinction between acually grinding the plate edges rather than relying on natural penetration.

[david and julie]

On plate welding work which is subject to testing(such as pressure pipes and vessels) it is usual to have a V on both sides of the plate. The usual procedure is weld the first runs in the V (route runs) on side A, then from side B you grind into weld A to remove any slag(which causes porosity) left from welding. Then route runs in B. The final bit you see on the surface is the cap.

 

On non critical work you could keep the plates 1mm or 2mm apart to give some penetration or use smaller vees.

 

I don't know what standards they build narrowboats to but I would think they would grind a V on thicker plates and below the waterline, but I doubt they would above it. But then I suppose this is where quality comes in again.

[Alan Saunders]

I am only an amateur welder but if I may be a bore and quote Mr Colvin again?

 

He lists, with drawings, 26 welds commonly used in ship and boat building:

 

T Joint: double & chain fillet, staggered fillet, single bevel welded both sides

Lap: plug rivet & slotted.

Bevel Corner: outside single or double + fillet reinforced

Square Corner: Open, welded one side or both

Outside Corner: single or double fillet

Butt Joint: Single V onto backing, Single V welded both sides,

Double V welded both sides, Square groove welded both sides (for various thicknesses)

Bearding: Large & Small

Centreboard Trunk

Pipe: 4"-10", 4" flush thru hull, 2" thru hull

 

'V' is used for butt joints in material over 1/8" (3mm) thick. Other joints may have one member chamfered or beveled.

 

Nowhere do I see a butt joint welded on only one side without a backing bar. I would rather the baseplate were welded both sides but turning over a 35'x7' (1.5 tons?) or 60'x12' (4.4 tons?) could be tricky.

 

The original question - "what is a vee weld" was adequately answered. How to be a good welder is beyond the scope of this forum but I assure you that once you have seen good welding you will never want to accept the rubbish that you so often see.

 

I rather liked the story about an American magazine reviewing a British hand-built bicycle frame. The American journalist rated the frame "excellent but the brazed filets could do with a bit more filing". The British builder replied "We don't file 'em at all"!

 

Alan

[david and julie]

I haven't seen this done on narrowboat baseplates so I am guessing a bit here. If I was joining the base plates I would prefer to do it with them on edge rather than lying down. This would enable you to use off cuts of angle to clamp the plates together and also let you get at either side, as you would need to tack weld on both sides first. This would mean vertical welding, but a good welder may prefer that. Grovelling on the floor on cold steel gives you a bad back, knees or a cold bottom, all off which are best avoided where possible!

 

I would think if you welded one side first it would warp the plates and the weld may also crack as you turned the plates over.

 

They must put many, many tack welds on narrowboats before welding, to avoid distortion.

[onionbargee]

Have you noticed that everyone wants to talk about welding, even if they know nothing about it ! I wonder why ? Nothing personal , just interesting is'nt it .

[John Orentas]

The principal of multiple weld runs in a deep V has already been explained. The question of distortion is partly overcome by tack welding but more importantly it is where the skill of the welder lies.

 

The secret is anticipation, to know which way and to what extent the two plates will move relative to one another, you then adjust the starting positions and angles, if you get it right then like magic ever thing has pulled straight and true.

Edited March 4, 2005 by John Orentas

[Alan Saunders]

Have you noticed that everyone wants to talk about welding, even if they know nothing about it ! I wonder why ? Nothing personal , just interesting is'nt it .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have you noticed how people are reluctant to expound on their expertise until goaded into it by ill informed posts?

 

When I stripped the paint from the rear deck of my boat I found that the steel had 'dished' and the surface was levelled with filler. When I filed away the ridge at the bottom of the gas locker drains I found thet the weld had not penetrated the floor plate. I would like to gain sufficient knowledge to avoid this level of workmanship.

 

We want to learn about all aspects of boat building. Either to DIY or to get the best from a professional. Think about those plumber and builder scare stories on the TV. We don't want to get scammed by cowboys. When they say "If you must have 'V' welds it'll cost you", we need to know if we should go elsewhere.

 

Alan

[david and julie]

Single V onto backing, Single V welded both sides,

Double V welded both sides

 

I tend to agree with onionbargee on this. I reckon there are some comma's missing in the above which changes the meanings. The V, as others have also said, only refers to to the grinding of a chamfer on the plate edges. If we used say double V welded both sides as an example, it should read either double Veed plate welded both sides or double Veed comma then welded both sides.

 

The weld itself is a weld, the V is plate prep, so you get a full penetration of the metal. I would suggest anyone using this terminology in adverts is giving bull to try to impress.

 

Bad welding can also happen if you do the above so it means nothing in some respects.

[onionbargee]

Have you noticed how people are reluctant to expound on their expertise until goaded into it by ill informed posts? 

 

When I stripped the paint from the rear deck of my boat I found that the steel had 'dished' and the surface was levelled with filler.  When I filed away the ridge at the bottom of the gas locker drains I found thet the weld had not penetrated the floor plate. I would like to gain sufficient knowledge to avoid this level of workmanship.

 

We want to learn about all aspects of boat building.  Either to DIY or to get the best from a professional.  Think about those plumber and builder scare stories on the TV.  We don't want to get scammed by cowboys. When they say "If you must have 'V' welds it'll cost you", we need to know if we should go elsewhere.

 

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've read the first paragraph here 5 times and it makes no sense to me ! What does this mean ? Do you mean i am an ill informed post'er ?

 

I'm a qualified welder and i keep hearing nonsense like " v welds" , and joining 10mm plate without any prepetration , and now i'm getting even !!!!

[onionbargee]

You want to see bad welding ? go to Willowbridge marina on the G.U at Milton Keynes, it's like Dodge city in there !

 

All the regulations and boat safety scheme, and totally unqualified welders can build , and sell a boat, that is so poorly welded, that a coded welder refused to work on it !

 

Somethings going wrong here .

[DHutch]

Have you noticed that everyone wants to talk about welding, even if they know nothing about it ! I wonder why ? Nothing personal , just interesting is'nt it .

 

HAY, i can weld!!

[Richard Bustens]

Have you noticed that everyone wants to talk about welding, even if they know nothing about it ! I wonder why ? Nothing personal , just interesting is'nt it .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I cant lay an egg but i still like one for my breakfast...LOL

[nigel carton]

You want to see bad welding ? go to Willowbridge marina on the G.U at Milton Keynes, it's like Dodge city in there ! 

 

All the regulations and boat safety scheme, and totally unqualified welders can build , and sell a boat, that is so poorly welded, that a coded welder refused to work on it !

 

Somethings going wrong here .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had a Harborough marine overplated there, the said welder did, ( in my opinion) a very professional job. If you have had a bad experience there, then you need to complain, re fund, etc. If its on somebody elses say so, be carefull, its a small world on the cut and peoples livelly hoods are at stake! On the other hand, if you can do better..... Theres a shortage of welders, fill ya boots, or v welds!

It might be worth not naming names on here, as much as I would like to do.

[Alan Saunders]

I've read the first paragraph here 5 times and it makes no sense to me ! What does this mean ? Do you mean i am an ill informed post'er ?

 

I'm a qualified welder and i keep hearing nonsense like " v welds" , and joining 10mm plate without any prepetration ,  and now i'm getting even !!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OnionBargee, Despite claiming to be an expert, you gave us no information at all so how could I imply that your post was 'ill-informed'? Your above statement can be read to imply that preparation is 'nonsense', i.e. unnecessary! I was claiming that I and others are 'ill-informed' and hoping that you would benefit us with a little of your expertise, preferably in laymen's language. As it seems you are a coded welder perhaps you could enlighten us as to the correct terms that are applicable to the welded joints found in steel boats?

 

It seems that the original enquiry was prompted by the Heron advertisement highlighting their 'V-welds'. Typically, businesses who discover that their competitors are producing an inferior product cannot risk disparaging the other business but, instead, emphasise their own correct practice.

 

Do you remember the 'timber-framed house scandal'? Wimpy found they had a problem with their timber frame construction so they investigated the other builders. Bovis were much worse than them so Wimpy leaked the story to the press. Bovis got a lot of bad publicity whilst Wimpy's shortcomings went unmentioned. Heron are playing the same game on a smaller scale.

 

Added at 10:10 21 March:

I did not mean to imply that Heron had problems but that they wished to point out the inadequacy of other builders. A better example might be the Mikuni advert which says "runs on red diesel" implying that similar products may not i.e. Eberspacher.

 

Alan

Edited March 21, 2005 by Alan Saunders

[Richard Bustens]

There is plenty on google about v welds, angles etc.

http://www.unified-eng.com/scitech/weld/groove.html

[Heron boats]

OnionBargee, Despite claiming to be an expert, you gave us no information at all so how could I imply that your post was 'ill-informed'?  Your above statement can be read to imply that preparation is 'nonsense', i.e. unnecessary!  I was claiming that I and others are 'ill-informed' and hoping that you would benefit us with a little of your expertise, preferably in laymen's language.  As it seems you are a coded welder perhaps you could enlighten us as to the correct terms that are applicable to the welded joints found in steel boats?

 

It seems that the original enquiry was prompted by the Heron advertisement highlighting their 'V-welds'.  Typically, businesses who discover that their competitors are producing an inferior product cannot risk disparaging the other business but, instead, emphasise their own correct practice.

 

Do you remember the 'timber-framed house scandal'?  Wimpy found they had a problem with their timber frame construction so they investigated the other builders.  Bovis were much worse than them so Wimpy leaked the story to the press.  Bovis got a lot of bad publicity whilst Wimpy's shortcomings went unmentioned.  Heron are playing the same game on a smaller scale.

 

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

 

Onionbargee,

You need to look a lot more closely at some boatbuilders if you believe that V preps are universal, there is indeed another way, you can butt the 2 square plate edges together with a slight gap and weld across the top, This results in poor penetration and voids in the joint.

 

Alan Saunders,

You seem imply that we have investigated the shortcomings of other builders, discovered their weak point (in this case not V preping plate joints)and then started advertising that we v prep our joints, then "leaked to the press" that others do not. all this to deflect attention from our other shortcomings! Thats quite a conspiricy theory!

 

In fact we have always V preped our plates, when we set up our steel operation we decided to employ best practice throughout from day 1. The idea to advertise the V prep came from Rod Straw at Waterways World during a visit to take some pictures for our adverts, he suggested that V preping of joints was not all that common and that it was one way of getting across to potential customers that we strive to follow best practice and build the best boat possible.

 

All companies seek to present them selves in the best possible light, we are no different we simply highlighted an area that others had not, Its not "bull" its not some sort of conspiricy, simply a statement of fact.

 

PS Gary Peacock answered the posters question perfectly, ages ago, funny how these things drift isnt it.

(Hi Gary, hope to be able to tow you home one day thanks btw)

Edited March 21, 2005 by Heron boats

[Gary Peacock]

Yes it did go off track a bit!

Edited March 21, 2005 by Gary Peacock

[Heron boats]

OnionBargee, Despite claiming to be an expert, you gave us no information at all so how could I imply that your post was 'ill-informed'?  Your above statement can be read to imply that preparation is 'nonsense', i.e. unnecessary!  I was claiming that I and others are 'ill-informed' and hoping that you would benefit us with a little of your expertise, preferably in laymen's language.  As it seems you are a coded welder perhaps you could enlighten us as to the correct terms that are applicable to the welded joints found in steel boats?

 

It seems that the original enquiry was prompted by the Heron advertisement highlighting their 'V-welds'.  Typically, businesses who discover that their competitors are producing an inferior product cannot risk disparaging the other business but, instead, emphasise their own correct practice.

 

Do you remember the 'timber-framed house scandal'?  Wimpy found they had a problem with their timber frame construction so they investigated the other builders.  Bovis were much worse than them so Wimpy leaked the story to the press.  Bovis got a lot of bad publicity whilst Wimpy's shortcomings went unmentioned.  Heron are playing the same game on a smaller scale.

 

Added at 10:10 21 March:

I did not mean to imply that Heron had problems but that they wished to point out the inadequacy of other builders.  A better example might be the Mikuni advert which says "runs on red diesel" implying that similar products may not i.e. Eberspacher.

 

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thanks for your edit Alan, much appreciated