Barge buying in The Netherlands

[bargemast]

 

 

In general as a surveyor I would tend to condemn any plating that's more than 10% wasted from it's original nominal thickness, with a bit of leeway for isolated pitting (where localised repairs might be an option).

 

 

As Tim already said, you may be a surveyor, but surely not used to commercial barges that are trading on the other side of the Channel, and even in the U.K.

 

It's hard to believe that plates of bottom and sides that were between 6 and 8mm when new, need to be replaced if they've lost 10% of their original thickness.

 

Independent of their original size, the official rule for upto 40m barges is, as long as there's at least 3.9mm left of bottom and sides, no repairs are needed, the chines have to be a minimum of 4.2mm BTW this is not just for Holland, but is the European rule.

 

For boats, and barges upto 20m, the minimum for bottom, and sides is only 3mm, and 3.5 for the chines.

 

I would like them to be thicker, and on my own barges I've never been down that far, apart from the angle iron chines, that I had replaced with a 12mm one, before it was needed, but by law they didn't have to be done, as long as they have a minimum of 4.2mm left.

 

So it's more what the insurance requires, and is happy with, and the general condition of the barge, if everything is rustfree and clean, and/or maybe even lightly greased and well maintained, I would be happy enough with 4mm.

 

Peter.

Edited June 30, 2012 by bargemast

[NB Willawaw]

Its a side slip - the boat is floated on to supports and then winched up a steep incline.

 

They do a full range of shipyard work there - they were blacking a boat when I was there.

 

I was amazed at the amount of equipment lying around - in the UK, it would all get pinched.

 

750 Euro could be about right in the Netherlands assuming you are talking about a 15-25m boat - its dearer than the UK I find.

 

ETA I don't know if they will cut out and replace plating - there is a lot of residential boats and apartments around, not to mention a very nice bar opposite that serves Duval and takes international credit cards (quite unusual in Holland).

Edited June 30, 2012 by NB Willawaw

[bargemast]

Yes I remember. From what I can gather this is just a slipway rather than a shipyard...or am I talking gibberish? (again!). I've been quoted €750 for slipping and cleaning. Is this reasonable?

 

I would have to add the cost of the surveyor onto that but at the moment have very little idea of what that would cost in NL. Any ideas?

 

 

If you want to use a Dutch surveyor, and if you have an U.K. insurance, make sure that they accept the survey, if not, you'll have to pay twice.

 

Also if you ask the broker, he may be able to find a cheaper slip in, or very close to Rotterdam, there is no lack of shipyards around there.

 

Peter.

[Sandysoo]

How big is the boat?

20m

[Teadaemon]

As Tim already said, you may be a surveyor, but surely not used to commercial barges that are trading on the other side of the Channel, and even in the U.K.

 

It's hard to believe that plates of bottom and sides that were between 6 and 8mm when new, need to be replaced if they've lost 10% of their original thickness.

 

Independent of their original size, the official rule for upto 40m barges is, as long as there's at least 3.9mm left of bottom and sides, no repairs are needed, the chines have to be a minimum of 4.2mm BTW this is not just for Holland, but is the European rule.

 

For boats, and barges upto 20m, the minimum for bottom, and sides is only 3mm, and 3.5 for the chines.

 

I would like them to be thicker, and on my own barges I've never been down that far, apart from the angle iron chines, that I had replaced with a 12mm one, before it was needed, but by law they didn't have to be done, as long as they have a minimum of 4.2mm left.

 

So it's more what the insurance requires, and is happy with, and the general condition of the barge, if everything is rustfree and clean, and/or maybe even lightly greased and well maintained, I would be happy enough with 4mm.

 

Peter.

 

That's a fair point, we don't get many large steel barges on the Norfolk Broads, most of what comes over here from Holland are steel motor cruisers with 3 or 4mm plate (some very nice ones too, I'm always surprised that there aren't more of them around).

 

Having said that, as a member of the IIMS I have met rather a lot of surveyors who have experience in a lot of different areas. So I've done what I'd expect any responsible professional to do, and asked another surveyor who does a lot of work in that area and who I know through various training events for their thoughts on what is and is not acceptable. If I can, I'll pass on their thoughts on the matter when I get them.

[blackrose]

When I was in France looking at barges for sale about 10 years ago, I was told that if a survey revealed thin steel needed replating then it was up to the vendor to have the work carried out prior to sale. That all seemed fine, until I found out that French surveyors consider 3mm to be an adequate plate thickness. I don't know if it's a similar situation in Holland?

 

I'm sure 3mm (or 3.5mm) will keep a boat afloat just as well as 6mm, but the thought in the back of my mind was how long would it be before replating was required? I was looking for a minimum plate thickness of 5mm, but on two trips to France looking at several boats with previous surveys I couldn't find it.

Edited July 1, 2012 by blackrose

[Teadaemon]

That's a fair point, we don't get many large steel barges on the Norfolk Broads, most of what comes over here from Holland are steel motor cruisers with 3 or 4mm plate (some very nice ones too, I'm always surprised that there aren't more of them around).

 

Having said that, as a member of the IIMS I have met rather a lot of surveyors who have experience in a lot of different areas. So I've done what I'd expect any responsible professional to do, and asked another surveyor who does a lot of work in that area and who I know through various training events for their thoughts on what is and is not acceptable. If I can, I'll pass on their thoughts on the matter when I get them.

 

Well, having now taken advice, I can confirm that what Peter says is correct for European insurers, and that UK insurers normally work on a minimum of 4mm in any pits (which is different from a plate generally wasted to 4mm thickness). As my contact has done hundreds of surveys on these sort of vessels I'm happy that this is good advice, although as I previously mentioned checking with whoever is actually going to insure the vessel is always a good idea.

 

Many thanks to the OP for bringing this up, and all those that have commented, as it means I've now learned something very useful. Even after several years of study and working in boatyards before I started my business, there's still a lot to learn about boats (indeed I know an 82 year old retired surveyor and past president of the IIMS who I meet at various events around the country who claims that he's still learning about boats and surveying).

[Steilsteven]

Thanks Teadaemon! That makes much more sense now. It's quite good because I'm learning more and more on a daily basis. So basically the seller and the broker who are both stating that the boat may need 5-10k of work to bring the boat to UK insurance spec of 4mm may be either misinformed, or possibly trying to pull the wool over my eyes!?

 

Hi Sandysoo,

 

I had my barge surveyed by Balliol Fowden, Balliol@angloeuromarine.com. and thoroughly recomend him as a surveyor of Dutch barges.

He will provide all the info you require.

 

As for insurance, either GJW or Haven Knox Johnson, both of which specialise in insurance for Dutch barges. They will expect a survey every seven years.

 

 

When buying in The Netherlands, you should first agree with the vendor a minimum hull thickness of 4mm to the water line and that anything below that thickness will be remedied at the vendor's expence. This agreement should be set out in a formal contract between you and the vendor prior to the survey and is when you hand over your deposit.

 

The vendor or the broker will be able to suggest a notary who will, probably, act for both of you in the transference of ownership ( this is quite normal )to take place on an agreed date. You will also need an interpreter on the day because the legal transaction will be entirely carried out in Dutch.

 

Be sure to join DBA, not least because it will entitle you to many discounts icluding insurance.

 

Keith

[Timleech]

Well, having now taken advice, I can confirm that what Peter says is correct for European insurers, and that UK insurers normally work on a minimum of 4mm in any pits (which is different from a plate generally wasted to 4mm thickness). As my contact has done hundreds of surveys on these sort of vessels I'm happy that this is good advice, although as I previously mentioned checking with whoever is actually going to insure the vessel is always a good idea.

 

Many thanks to the OP for bringing this up, and all those that have commented, as it means I've now learned something very useful. Even after several years of study and working in boatyards before I started my business, there's still a lot to learn about boats (indeed I know an 82 year old retired surveyor and past president of the IIMS who I meet at various events around the country who claims that he's still learning about boats and surveying).

 

This 4mm minimum seems to be a recent thing which some insurers have been adopting, probably because one or two surveyors have persuaded them that it's a good idea.

It seems to go along with the 'ultrasonic survey by rote' which has been common on the continent for years and has been creeping in over here even for narrow boats. This is where the boat is marked out in a grid pattern and readings taken at marked points, rather than 'intelligent' surveying where the surveyor uses his knowledge and experience to find likely weak points, and probably use ultrasonics to confirm (or otherwise). Of course it's perfectly possible to do both as part of the same survey, but the tendency seems to be to put more emphasis on the former and less on the latter, and having a specified minimum thickness sits well with the 'rote' method. There are dangers that it can be misapplied, especially by inexperienced surveyors, with potentially expensive consequences for boat owners. That said, if I were looking to buy a barge to bring across the channel then I suppose I'd be happy if I knew the hull was at least 4mm thick (according to the measurements, at least).

 

Tim

Edited July 1, 2012 by Timleech

[bargemast]

When I was in France looking at barges for sale about 10 years ago, I was told that if a survey revealed thin steel needed replating then it was up to the vendor to have the work carried out prior to sale. That all seemed fine, until I found out that French surveyors consider 3mm to be an adequate plate thickness. I don't know if it's a similar situation in Holland?

 

I'm sure 3mm (or 3.5mm) will keep a boat afloat just as well as 6mm, but the thought in the back of my mind was how long would it be before replating was required? I was looking for a minimum plate thickness of 5mm, but on two trips to France looking at several boats with previous surveys I couldn't find it.

 

 

For someone like you, used to the in general much heavier(thicker) steel used in narrowboats (often 10-6-4), it will be a shock to find only 3 or 3.5mm, they wouldn't have made me very happy either.

 

But if you have a good look at a bottom like that, and there are no doubling plates anywhere (if you are lucky) it would worry me already less, knowing that most of these barges will be close to 100 years of age, and some even older.

 

If after a hard working life, there is still enough thickness left to satisfy the insurers, you may not need to have replating done soon, or never if the boat is properly maintained.

 

Old iron, and the earlier steel quality seems to be less prone to just rusting away, a friend of mine bought an old Skutsje, which is a smaller size Tjalk, about 25 years ago with plates just over minimum thickness, thinking he had to save up the money needed to replace at least some of those plates in the near future, 5 years ago, so 20 years after he'd bought the boat, the plates were still exactly the same, so still no work needed.

 

Of course this is only a one-of example, and no warranty that all other barges age like this one, I've seen many barges that looked more like a piece of patch work art, with lots of doubling plates everywhere, and for me those are the ones to avoid, and not even touch them with the well known barge pole.

 

Peter.

[NB Willawaw]

Is a doubling plate the same as overplating ??

 

Of course this is only a one-of example, and no warranty that all other barges age like this one, I've seen many barges that looked more like a piece of patch work art, with lots of doubling plates everywhere, and for me those are the ones to avoid, and not even touch them with the well known barge pole.

 

Peter.

[bargemast]

Is a doubling plate the same as overplating ??

 

 

Yes Mark, that's what I wanted to say, but may have used the wrong word.

 

Peter.

[Timleech]

Yes Mark, that's what I wanted to say, but may have used the wrong word.

 

Peter.

 

Both terms are OK.

 

Tim

[Steilsteven]

Of course this is only a one-of example, and no warranty that all other barges age like this one, I've seen many barges that looked more like a piece of patch work art, with lots of doubling plates everywhere, and for me those are the ones to avoid, and not even touch them with the well known barge pole.

 

Peter.

 

There's nothing wrong with over plating, provided that it's done properly, and it's accepted practice in Netherlands.

When PETRA was surveyed we cut out some sections of over plating to enable an accurate reading of the thickess of the original, this was found to be in excess of 5 mm. This was along the chines on each side where one would expect the most wear.

 

Keith

[bargemast]

 

There's nothing wrong with over plating, provided that it's done properly, and it's accepted practice in Netherlands.

When PETRA was surveyed we cut out some sections of over plating to enable an accurate reading of the thickess of the original, this was found to be in excess of 5 mm. This was along the chines on each side where one would expect the most wear.

 

Keith

 

 

Hello Keith,

 

don't get me wrong, I didn't say that over-plating isn't a common, and accepted practice, only that I would avoid boats where it's done like patch-work, with patches all over the hull, where they've used just every little piece of scrap plate lying in the yard, and I'm not joking, I've seen this more than once.

 

The way you did it is the best way (if you don't want to replate), as at least you know that your dubbelings are welded onto something strong, which isn't very often the case sadly enough.

 

I'm sure that Balliol, has seen plenty of very bad examples, with sometimes overplating been overplated, it's very important to use a good surveyor that is familiar with old barges.

 

Peter.

[Sandysoo]

Hi Sandysoo,

 

I had my barge surveyed by Balliol Fowden, Balliol@angloeuromarine.com. and thoroughly recomend him as a surveyor of Dutch barges.

He will provide all the info you require.

 

As for insurance, either GJW or Haven Knox Johnson, both of which specialise in insurance for Dutch barges. They will expect a survey every seven years.

 

 

When buying in The Netherlands, you should first agree with the vendor a minimum hull thickness of 4mm to the water line and that anything below that thickness will be remedied at the vendor's expence. This agreement should be set out in a formal contract between you and the vendor prior to the survey and is when you hand over your deposit.

 

The vendor or the broker will be able to suggest a notary who will, probably, act for both of you in the transference of ownership ( this is quite normal )to take place on an agreed date. You will also need an interpreter on the day because the legal transaction will be entirely carried out in Dutch.

 

Be sure to join DBA, not least because it will entitle you to many discounts icluding insurance.

 

Keith

 

Hi Keith,

 

Thanks for the info. This is more in line with what the vendor and broker were saying about a 4mm requirement. Subsequent posts seem to show that this a relatively new thing with insurance companies so I'm not surprised it was not confirmed in previous posts.

 

This then makes the point raised by the vendor relatively valid. He was saying that if he was selling the boat in NL the the price offered would be acceptable. However because of the additional work needed to carry out works to UK spec, he was looking for an extra €5k. Not sure that I agree with this as this effectively means that I am financing the works which he has undertaken to carry out...however I guess as these would not be needed if he was selling in NL, then he is entitled to try and recoup some of the costs.

 

Thanks also for the recommended surveyor and insurance companies. I will try and contact them for some quotes and further advice. Do you know if the surveyor is lbased in the UK, or NL?

 

Sandra

[Sandysoo]

As Tim already said, you may be a surveyor, but surely not used to commercial barges that are trading on the other side of the Channel, and even in the U.K.

 

It's hard to believe that plates of bottom and sides that were between 6 and 8mm when new, need to be replaced if they've lost 10% of their original thickness.

 

Independent of their original size, the official rule for upto 40m barges is, as long as there's at least 3.9mm left of bottom and sides, no repairs are needed, the chines have to be a minimum of 4.2mm BTW this is not just for Holland, but is the European rule.

 

For boats, and barges upto 20m, the minimum for bottom, and sides is only 3mm, and 3.5 for the chines.

 

I would like them to be thicker, and on my own barges I've never been down that far, apart from the angle iron chines, that I had replaced with a 12mm one, before it was needed, but by law they didn't have to be done, as long as they have a minimum of 4.2mm left.

 

So it's more what the insurance requires, and is happy with, and the general condition of the barge, if everything is rustfree and clean, and/or maybe even lightly greased and well maintained, I would be happy enough with 4mm.

 

Peter.

 

Hi Peter,

 

Thanks for the above info. The boat I am looking at is 20.09, so would it come under the 20m or 40m rules do you know?

 

Thanks

Sandra

 

 

[bargemast]

It would be better if they can remeasure the barge, to just under 20m, as at even only 9 cm more, she's over 20 m, which means she has to be conform to the TRIWV, which really is a lot of hassle that you avoid if you're under 20m.

 

Good luck,

 

Peter.

Edited July 2, 2012 by bargemast

[Sandysoo]

It would be better if they can remeasure the barge, to just under 20m, as at even only 9 cm more, she's over 20 m, which means she has to be conform to the TRIWV, which really is a lot of hassle that you avoid if you're under 20m.

 

Good luck,

 

Peter.

I've just received a copy of the last hull report and it states 20m on there :-)

[bargemast]

I've just received a copy of the last hull report and it states 20m on there :-)

 

 

I hope for you that it will say 20m, or a couple of centimetres less on the "Meetbrief", which is the official paper with the measurements and other details concerning the boat, like year of first launch, builder, names she had, etc.

 

Peter.