Barge buying in The Netherlands

[Sandysoo]

I'm in the process of buying a barge.  It's quite likely that I will buy in The Netherlands and hopefully ship it across in the next month or two so. I  wondered if anyone could recommend the following;

 

   1.  A good drydock/shipyard in Rotterdam

   2.  A surveyor

   3.  A solicitor that can handle the sale on my behalf.

 

Also, is it correct that the hull thickness for insurance purposes n the UK should be a min of 4cm, as opposed to 3.5 in NL?

 

Any additional advice anyone can offer on boat buying in NL would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks! :-)

   

[Timleech]

I'm in the process of buying a barge.  It's quite likely that I will buy in The Netherlands and hopefully ship it across in the next month or two so. I  wondered if anyone could recommend the following;

 

   1.  A good drydock/shipyard in Rotterdam

   2.  A surveyor

   3.  A solicitor that can handle the sale on my behalf.

 

Also, is it correct that the hull thickness for insurance purposes n the UK should be a min of 4cm, as opposed to 3.5 in NL?

 

Any additional advice anyone can offer on boat buying in NL would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks! :-)

   

 

I think you mean 4mm

 

Different insurers will have different expectations, some might require a minimum thickness while others might rely on the surveyor's judgement.

 

Tim

[NB Willawaw]

I was over there recently looking at Dutch barges and there is a side slip at Koningspoort in the Oudehaven right next to the Erasmus Bridge.

 

Its quite touristy there and it appears to be more of an historic attraction, but they do work on boats.

 

It might also be worth you getting in touch with the Dutch Barge Association here in the UK as they have a lot of specialist advice and I believe they have a forum for members.

[Sandysoo]

I think you mean 4mm

 

Different insurers will have different expectations, some might require a minimum thickness while others might rely on the surveyor's judgement.

 

Tim

 

 

Thanks for the update Tim, and spotting the mm/cm error....just hope the folk on the DBA forum are as forgiving about it! :-)

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Try to find out the history of the barge the old sailing barges are sweet on the water. if a family barge has been only on grain shipping all its life against a coal or salt trader which will have been hard used.

[bargemast]

There are plenty of shipyards almost evertwhere in the Netherlands, if you buy a barge and agree that the seller will pay the for the work needed to be done to satisfy your surveyor, he/she will surely know a yard in the area.

 

If you use the service of a shipsbroker, he'll know plenty of yards too, and can do the same job as a sollicitor.

 

Maybe it's a good idea for you to join the DBA, they have many members that have done already what you're planning on doing, there website is : My link

 

Peter.

 

just discovered that you know the DBA already, they will surely be able to give you all the info you'll need.

Edited June 30, 2012 by bargemast

[Sandysoo]

Try to find out the history of the barge the old sailing barges are sweet on the water. if a family barge has been only on grain shipping all its life against a coal or salt trader which will have been hard used.

 

That's a really good point. The one I'm interested had a log showing a variety of things being transported. I remember potatoes (!)...hopefully there was nothing heavier :-)

 

Thanks for the heads up btw...I must say, this forum is proving to be fairly awesome at the moment.

 

There are plenty of shipyards almost evertwhere in the Netherlands, if you buy a barge and agree that the seller will pay the for the work needed to be done to satisfy your surveyor, he/she will surely know a yard in the area.

 

If you use the service of a shipsbroker, he'll know plenty of yards too, and can do the same job as a sollicitor.

 

Maybe it's a good idea for you to join the DBA, they have many members that have done already what you're planning on doing, there website is : My link

 

Peter.

 

just discovered that you know the DBA already, they will surely be able to give you all the info you'll need.

 

 

I've registered, paid to become a member and signed up with their various forums. I'm still waiting for my post to be accepted!.. Maybe they are having a lie in :-)

[bargemast]

I was over there recently looking at Dutch barges and there is a side slip at Koningspoort in the Oudehaven right next to the Erasmus Bridge.

 

Its quite touristy there and it appears to be more of an historic attraction, but they do work on boats.

 

It might also be worth you getting in touch with the Dutch Barge Association here in the UK as they have a lot of specialist advice and I believe they have a forum for members.

 

 

Hello Mark,

 

the yard you write about is a very interesting place to spend some time, if you're interested in historic barges, I love the place.

 

But I don't think it's very likely that they'll pull (just) a barge out of the water for a survey at short notice.

 

You have to be a member of the Museum-yard, and they normally have a fairly long waiting list for their members already.

 

Also the idea there is that you try to do most of the work yourself, but there are people around that can help you and show you how to hot-rivet, and do it for you if you don't want to do it, or really can't do it yourself.

 

The general idea of that yard is to help people restauring, and maintaining their historical barges (vessels), and some have been even lucky enough to obtain a fantastic mooring there aswell.

 

Cheers,

 

Peter.

[Sandysoo]

There are plenty of shipyards almost evertwhere in the Netherlands, if you buy a barge and agree that the seller will pay the for the work needed to be done to satisfy your surveyor, he/she will surely know a yard in the area.

 

If you use the service of a shipsbroker, he'll know plenty of yards too, and can do the same job as a sollicitor.

 

Maybe it's a good idea for you to join the DBA, they have many members that have done already what you're planning on doing, there website is : My link

 

Peter.

 

just discovered that you know the DBA already, they will surely be able to give you all the info you'll need.

 

So is there legal recourse with the broker if the sale is in any way misrepresented?

[bargemast]

That's a really good point. The one I'm interested had a log showing a variety of things being transported. I remember potatoes (!)...hopefully there was nothing heavier :-)

 

Thanks for the heads up btw...I must say, this forum is proving to be fairly awesome at the moment.

 

 

 

 

I've registered, paid to become a member and signed up with their various forums. I'm still waiting for my post to be accepted!.. Maybe they are having a lie in :-)

 

 

The stories people tell you of what the barge they want to sell you used to transport, are often very far from reality.

 

Some of them were built with a specific kind of cargo transport in mind, which they've done aswell, but during the barge's life, times have been hard, and they had to transport whatever they could get as cargo, if you need money, you can't be too fussy.

 

The old sailing barges have had most changes done on them, they've been motorised (more then once), often lenghtend, deck hight raised, etc. so they rarely are still like they left the building yard.

 

Some of the owners of the barges in the Museum-yard in Rotterdam, shorten their barges to the original lenght, and lower the decks again, lots, and lots of work, but for purists like that, nothing is too much.

 

One thing all those old boats have that's undeniable is "Character".

 

Peter.

[bigkicker]

A friend of mine bought a Luxe motor over from Holland a couple of years back, he had to employ a pilot to bring the boat over otherwise his insurance would not cover him ! He's still fitting it out!!!

[NB Willawaw]

Hi Peter

 

There is a pretty good ambience in Rotterdam in barge circles - people seem very friendly. The Dutch are a pretty laid back lot by and large.

There are a lot of barges around that area and people are pretty happy to talk about them. The museum is pretty interesting as well with a lot of working craft. The wheelhouses of the true commercial barges are more like yachts in terms of their finish and its always interesting to watch the skippers tie up at night and crane their cars off the roof of their home.

 

Hello Mark,

 

the yard you write about is a very interesting place to spend some time, if you're interested in historic barges, I love the place.

 

But I don't think it's very likely that they'll pull (just) a barge out of the water for a survey at short notice.

 

You have to be a member of the Museum-yard, and they normally have a fairly long waiting list for their members already.

 

Also the idea there is that you try to do most of the work yourself, but there are people around that can help you and show you how to hot-rivet, and do it for you if you don't want to do it, or really can't do it yourself.

 

The general idea of that yard is to help people restauring, and maintaining their historical barges (vessels), and some have been even lucky enough to obtain a fantastic mooring there aswell.

 

Cheers,

 

Peter.

[Teadaemon]

I'm in the process of buying a barge.  It's quite likely that I will buy in The Netherlands and hopefully ship it across in the next month or two so. I  wondered if anyone could recommend the following;

 

   1.  A good drydock/shipyard in Rotterdam

   2.  A surveyor

   3.  A solicitor that can handle the sale on my behalf.

 

Also, is it correct that the hull thickness for insurance purposes n the UK should be a min of 4cm, as opposed to 3.5 in NL?

 

Any additional advice anyone can offer on boat buying in NL would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks! :-)

   

 

If you have a hull thickness of 4cm then you have an icebreaker or a nuclear submarine, I think you meant 4mm.

 

In general as a surveyor I would tend to condemn any plating that's more than 10% wasted from it's original nominal thickness, with a bit of leeway for isolated pitting (where localised repairs might be an option).

[Sandysoo]

If you have a hull thickness of 4cm then you have an icebreaker or a nuclear submarine, I think you meant 4mm.

 

In general as a surveyor I would tend to condemn any plating that's more than 10% wasted from it's original nominal thickness, with a bit of leeway for isolated pitting (where localised repairs might be an option).

 

I think I'm going to have to repost my original questions with the correct measurements...This is getting a trifle embarrassing now!:-)

 

Thanks for the update. Forgive my ignorance, but as a laywoman, a lot of what you posted means very little to me. Is 4mm the required thickness for UK insurance? I received a post earlier advising that it varied, dependant on which insurers you were going through.

[ditchcrawler]

I think I'm going to have to repost my original questions with the correct measurements...This is getting a trifle embarrassing now!:-)

 

Thanks for the update. Forgive my ignorance, but as a laywoman, a lot of what you posted means very little to me. Is 4mm the required thickness for UK insurance? I received a post earlier advising that it varied, dependant on which insurers you were going through.

I dont know it this company could help or how much they charge for advice Help with Barges

I would contact the DBA first.

[Teadaemon]

I think I'm going to have to repost my original questions with the correct measurements...This is getting a trifle embarrassing now!:-)

 

Thanks for the update. Forgive my ignorance, but as a laywoman, a lot of what you posted means very little to me. Is 4mm the required thickness for UK insurance? I received a post earlier advising that it varied, dependant on which insurers you were going through.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to embarrass you.

 

As far as I'm aware, I've never come across a particular thickness for hull plating being specified by an insurer, although it's worth talking to prospective insurers and asking if they have any particular conditions, as things do change from time to time.

 

As a surveyor, I tend to make the assumption that for a professionally built boat, the original plate thickness was considered adequate by the naval architect who designed the boat, and that if the plate is still within 10% of that thickness, then it's still adequate. The US Navy have built quite a few destroyers from 1/8" plate, which is 3.175mm, so it's perfectly possible that there are Dutch barges or similar sized steel vessels out there with 3mm plate that are perfectly serviceable. Having said that, if the boat was designed to be built from 4mm plate, but only has 3.5mm left, then the wastage is 12.5% and I'd be suggesting that all the areas that are that wasted are cut out and replaced (not overplated, or at least if I see overplating on a steel boat I'm never going to say that it's fit to go to sea, except maybe for a single journey in good weather to a place where permanent repairs can be made).

[Sandysoo]

Sorry, I didn't mean to embarrass you.

 

As far as I'm aware, I've never come across a particular thickness for hull plating being specified by an insurer, although it's worth talking to prospective insurers and asking if they have any particular conditions, as things do change from time to time.

 

As a surveyor, I tend to make the assumption that for a professionally built boat, the original plate thickness was considered adequate by the naval architect who designed the boat, and that if the plate is still within 10% of that thickness, then it's still adequate. The US Navy have built quite a few destroyers from 1/8" plate, which is 3.175mm, so it's perfectly possible that there are Dutch barges or similar sized steel vessels out there with 3mm plate that are perfectly serviceable. Having said that, if the boat was designed to be built from 4mm plate, but only has 3.5mm left, then the wastage is 12.5% and I'd be suggesting that all the areas that are that wasted are cut out and replaced (not overplated, or at least if I see overplating on a steel boat I'm never going to say that it's fit to go to sea, except maybe for a single journey in good weather to a place where permanent repairs can be made).

 

Thanks Teadaemon! That makes much more sense now. It's quite good because I'm learning more and more on a daily basis. So basically the seller and the broker who are both stating that the boat may need 5-10k of work to bring the boat to UK insurance spec of 4mm may be either misinformed, or possibly trying to pull the wool over my eyes!?

[Teadaemon]

Thanks Teadaemon! That makes much more sense now. It's quite good because I'm learning more and more on a daily basis. So basically the seller and the broker who are both stating that the boat may need 5-10k of work to bring the boat to UK insurance spec of 4mm may be either misinformed, or possibly trying to pull the wool over my eyes!?

 

I've certainly never heard of insurers (and there are probably half a dozen uk-based boat insurers, although there are a lot more brokers and resellers out there) having a blanket requirement for the hull of a steel boat to be a particular thickness, but in certain circumstances they may do. I would suggest that before you get the boat surveyed you talk to prospective insurers and ask them what they require, then you can instruct your surveyor appropriately.

 

If the seller and broker are both saying that the boat may need 5-10k of work, I'd suggest that the chances are she definitely does need at least that much, and might need more.

[Timleech]

If you have a hull thickness of 4cm then you have an icebreaker or a nuclear submarine, I think you meant 4mm.

 

In general as a surveyor I would tend to condemn any plating that's more than 10% wasted from it's original nominal thickness, with a bit of leeway for isolated pitting (where localised repairs might be an option).

 

Obviously not accustomed to surveying old ex-working boats

 

You would have them all condemned!

 

Tim

[Teadaemon]

Obviously not accustomed to surveying old ex-working boats

 

You would have them all condemned!

 

Tim

 

As far as I'm aware, 10% is the figure used by most surveyors, insurers, and classification societies for both commercial and pleasure vessels constructed using conventional scantlings and techniques. There may be a case for allowing a larger proportion of wastage where the hull plating was over-specified originally to allow this (or to cope with the demands of a particular cargo or working environment), but that's very much on a case-by-case basis.

 

At the end of the day, what I write in my report has to be what I'm happy to hear read back to me by counsel in court, and to be cross-examined on by counsel being advised by one (or more) of my peers.

[NB Willawaw]

This might be useful to you:

 

Oudehaven is shown in the banner photo.

 

http://vereeniging.blogspot.co.uk/

[Sandysoo]

This might be useful to you:

 

Oudehaven is shown in the banner photo.

 

http://vereeniging.blogspot.co.uk/

 

 

Thanks for the link. This isn't the one by the museum area is it? I've had a few people recommend that one to me as well as the seller and the broker.

[NB Willawaw]

Yes - see my earlier post.

 

Thanks for the link. This isn't the one by the museum area is it? I've had a few people recommend that one to me as well as the seller and the broker.

[Sandysoo]

Yes - see my earlier post.

 

Yes I remember. From what I can gather this is just a slipway rather than a shipyard...or am I talking gibberish? (again!). I've been quoted €750 for slipping and cleaning. Is this reasonable?

 

I would have to add the cost of the surveyor onto that but at the moment have very little idea of what that would cost in NL. Any ideas?

[Teadaemon]

Yes I remember. From what I can gather this is just a slipway rather than a shipyard...or am I talking gibberish? (again!). I've been quoted €750 for slipping and cleaning. Is this reasonable?

 

I would have to add the cost of the surveyor onto that but at the moment have very little idea of what that would cost in NL. Any ideas?

 

How big is the boat?