No RCD = No BSSC

[Gary Peacock]

A friend of mine as just being refused a BSSC because he can't provide a RCD Certificate of conformity.

 

Now maybe I have it all wrong but if you do not place your boat on the open market for a period of 5 years from completion you do not need to comply with the RCD?

 

So why the sudden involvement of the BSS in RCD matters?

 

Do I smell something fishy going on here?

[Guest]

A friend of mine as just being refused a BSSC because he can't provide a RCD Certificate of conformity.

 

Now maybe I have it all wrong but if you do not place your boat on the open market for a period of 5 years from completion you do not need to comply with the RCD?

 

So why the sudden involvement of the BSS in RCD matters?

 

Do I smell something fishy going on here?

That stinks. Never heard of that before-is it a new shell that he has fitted out? An e-mail to Rob at Bscc might be in order.

[Gary Peacock]

That stinks. Never heard of that before-is it a new shell that he has fitted out? An e-mail to Rob at Bscc might be in order.

 

The boat is having its 2nd BSS examination at five years, the owner did not buy the boat new it was already on the water fully fitted although not RCD compliant but with a valid BSSC.

 

I will try and confirm the detail but if this examiner is correct the implications could be quite interesting!

 

I'm sure Rob will put the policy straight on this. Or if it is now the correct policy explain why?

Edited February 27, 2006 by Gary Peacock

[Cafnod]

Some BSSC examiner seem to be law unto themselves. I have heard that certain questionable things are permitted or certificates refused depending on how the examiner likes the boat or the owner, or even what mood they are in. It is known as 'The examiners discretion.' I have never heard a DIRECT tale of bribery or corruption with BSSC's BUT a friend of mine who has been on the cut a LOT of years and her husband (a retired boat builder) advised us to be very careful when we were looking at buying our first boat as to the authenticity of the BSSC.

Having finished my rant I thought that RCD's or CE marking was weights and measures based whilst the BSS was purely a check of conformity for safety regulations in order to obtain a BW licence.

[Guest]

The boat is having its 2nd BSS examination at five years, the owner did not buy the boat new it was already on the water fully fitted although not RCD compliant but with a valid BSSC.

 

I will try and confirm the detail but if this examiner is correct the implications could be quite interesting!

 

I'm sure Bob will put the policy straight on this. Or if it is now the correct policy explain why?

This could affect an awful lot of people if it is correct. Must say I am not altogether surprised. Can't remember the correct term but our shell at nearly two years old came with certification as a sailaway, but isn't rcd compliant as a complete craft. Interesting times ahead possibly.

 

Some BSSC examiner seem to be law unto themselves. I have heard that certain questionable things are permitted or certificates refused depending on how the examiner likes the boat or the owner, or even what mood they are in. It is known as 'The examiners discretion.' I have never heard a DIRECT tale of bribery or corruption with BSSC's BUT a friend of mine who has been on the cut a LOT of years and her husband (a retired boat builder) advised us to be very careful when we were looking at buying our first boat as to the authenticity of the BSSC.

Having finished my rant I thought that RCD's or CE marking was weights and measures based whilst the BSS was purely a check of conformity for safety regulations in order to obtain a BW licence.

I have to agree. We had a boat surveyed about three years ago with a current BSC. One of the first things the surveyor picked up on was the beautifully soldered joints on the gas pipework. Just to put things in balance, I must say the BSC guy we use is very helpful and was brilliant for giving advise during fitout.

 

These things have a danger of "drifting" into each other and is a situation that we all need to watch carefully.

[stuart]

....came with certification as a sailaway, but isn't rcd compliant as a complete craft. Interesting times ahead possibly.

 

Same here!

[Guest]

Same here!

Having thought about it, I will just do my own certification if it comes to it. I have a blank form......

[Gary Peacock]

Rob posted this previously but although it seems to go along with this examiners view it does not answer what you do if you do not want to be bothered with the RCD.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Glenn,

Our examiners cannot examine and certificate a 'not yet CE-marked' craft. Either you have to have no intention of selling on the craft, or you must go down the full CE-marking route. The law (when enforced) could mean that our examiners could be prosecuted.

 

You may find this Self-build download useful. Some marine surveyors offer self-builders services to help wade through the requirements of the directive and produce the manual and Declaration of Conformity as required by the law.

Further information on that can be read on a letter from the Dti, which they asked us to post on site.

 

I see you are considering going to France, I'm no expert in this matter, but you may find it useful to have very complete paperwork if the boat has to cross borders.

 

Regards

Rob

[Guest]

Rob posted this previously but although it seems to go along with this examiners view it does not answer what you do if you do not want to be bothered with the RCD.

Glenn,

Our examiners cannot examine and certificate a 'not yet CE-marked' craft. Either you have to have no intention of selling on the craft, or you must go down the full CE-marking route. The law (when enforced) could mean that our examiners could be prosecuted.

 

You may find this Self-build download useful. Some marine surveyors offer self-builders services to help wade through the requirements of the directive and produce the manual and Declaration of Conformity as required by the law.

Further information on that can be read on a letter from the Dti, which they asked us to post on site.

 

I see you are considering going to France, I'm no expert in this matter, but you may find it useful to have very complete paperwork if the boat has to cross borders.

 

Regards

Rob

 

I thought that was the important bit, but then who am I? The whole bloody lot is ambiguous anyway. This game will be on its a*se shortly.

[ChrisPy]

Rob posted this previously but although it seems to go along with this examiners view it does not answer what you do if you do not want to be bothered with the RCD.

You may find this Self-build download useful. Regards

Rob[/b]

 

Gary, please can you give us a reference to find that posting? I am interested in the self-build link

[Gary Peacock]

Gary, please can you give us a reference to find that posting? I am interested in the self-build link

 

Try this http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...488entry37488

[Guest]

Unless I am missing something, I can't see that anything has changed. Is it not still "thou shalt not sell within five years" rule? From what I can see you need an "annexIII (?)" for a sailaway and then a BSC certificate. I know two people who have built their own shells-not sure how they go on but I will ask if I see them.

[stuart]

From reading the above document...

 

A "sailaway" must come with an annex III document indicating that it complies with RCD when it left the factory. This is used to licence the hull for the first year.

 

On the second year licence application...

 

* you must have completed the fitout and produce a full RCD compliance document

 

or

 

* obtain a BSS inspection document.

 

 

Do you agree?

Edited February 27, 2006 by stuart

[Guest]

From reading the above document...

 

A "sailaway" must come with an annex III document indicating that it complies with RCD when it left the factory. This is used to licence the hull for the first year.

 

On the second year licence application...

 

* you must have completed the fitout and produce a full RCD compliance document

 

or

 

* obtain a BSS inspection document.

Do you agree?

Yes Stuart

That is my understanding of the situation. BW did say to us that they would give extra time should one not complete within 12 months

Edited February 27, 2006 by Guest

[John Orentas]

I suspect this whole thing will come down to one over officious BSS inspector who has little idea of the job he is paid to do. There are a few about.

[Cafnod]

That is my understanding of the situation. BW did say to us that they would give extra time should one not complete within 12 months

 

 

Does this mean you now have to complete a fitout in 12 months now, or go to BW cap in hand for an extension? I have no intention of completing my fitout within a year, many people who buy sailaways do not, that is why they buy them, to build in their own time.

 

I suspect this whole thing will come down to one over officious BSS inspector who has little idea of the job he is paid to do. There are a few about.

 

Only a few John?

[david and julie]

The boat is having its 2nd BSS examination at five years, the owner did not buy the boat new it was already on the water fully fitted although not RCD compliant but with a valid BSSC.

 

I will try and confirm the detail but if this examiner is correct the implications could be quite interesting!

 

I'm sure Rob will put the policy straight on this. Or if it is now the correct policy explain why?

 

I may be misunderstanding this, but are you saying the boat was re-sold by the original owner, before it was five years old?

 

If that is the case the present owner is the second so it may indeed contravene the five year (own use) rule, is that the problem?

 

Anyone any idea what would happen if you sold it unfinished and within the first twelve months?

[denboy]

I may be misunderstanding this, but are you saying the boat was re-sold by the original owner, before it was five years old?

 

If that is the case the present owner is the second so it may indeed contravene the five year (own use) rule, is that the problem?

 

Anyone any idea what would happen if you sold it unfinished and within the first twelve months?

 

 

im sure i read somewere that under eceptional circumstances you can sell within five yearsie eg if husband dies etc and nobody to finish project i may be wrong but that was a few years ago goal posts move every month dont they

[Gary Peacock]

I may be misunderstanding this, but are you saying the boat was re-sold by the original owner, before it was five years old?

 

If that is the case the present owner is the second so it may indeed contravene the five year (own use) rule, is that the problem?

 

Anyone any idea what would happen if you sold it unfinished and within the first twelve months?

 

Yes the boat was sold within the first five years which is technically a criminal offence, but that wasn't the concern of the examiner more the fact that the boat did not comply to the RCD and the owner has no intention of making it do so. The owners view his all he needs is a BSSC for which the boat complies.

 

The issue here is can the BSS legally prevent you from using your boat on European waterways when your rights within European/UK law allow you to build a boat for your own use which you have no intention of placing on the market for over five years?

[Guest]

Yes the boat was sold within the first five years which is technically a criminal offence, but that wasn't the concern of the examiner more the fact that the boat did not comply to the RCD and the owner has no intention of making it do so. The owners view his all he needs is a BSSC for which the boat complies.

The issue here is can the BSS legally prevent you from using your boat on European waterways when your rights within European/UK law allow you to build a boat for your own use which you have no intention of placing on the market for over five years?

I believe he is correct. The changing of hands is of no concern to BSC inspector.

Th e answer to the second paragraph is "no"

[Rob@BSSOffice]

Yes the boat was sold within the first five years which is technically a criminal offence, but that wasn't the concern of the examiner more the fact that the boat did not comply to the RCD and the owner has no intention of making it do so. The owners view his all he needs is a BSSC for which the boat complies.

 

The issue here is can the BSS legally prevent you from using your boat on European waterways when your rights within European/UK law allow you to build a boat for your own use which you have no intention of placing on the market for over five years?

 

Hi Gary

I do not want to enter in public debate specifically regarding your friend's boat, especially with reference to the above information. Breaking this area of law can have serious consequences and I reference the recent successful Lancs TSD action that has cost one boat supplier a substantial sum, and, given him a criminal record. If your friend has a grievance with the decision of the examiner, please can he/she call Graham Watts the Scheme's manager to discuss the appropriateness or otherwise of examiner's actions.

 

However I can offer everyone a copy of the advice given to examiners in this matter. It is lengthy, but it is the cut and paste from the guidance issued in 2004, as follows:-

 

'An owner who acquires a shell (or a partly complete boat intended to be completed by others) is presented with two options:

 

1. He/she can decide to complete and then CE mark the boat as if they are the builder. At the end of this process they must make an Annex 15 declaration that the boat conforms to the essential requirements of the RCR, and as you know this declaration can support licence applications for the first four years of the life of a boat.

 

2. Alternatively the owner can decide not to follow the CE marking route if it not there intention to sell within 5 years and will be required to achieve a BSSC.

 

Whichever option is chosen the boat can be licensed/registered for the first year using the shell builders Annex 3A declaration that as far as he has completed the boat it complies with the RCD.

 

If it is not the ‘intention’ of the owner to CE mark then the boat can clearly be issued with a BSSC. In these circumstances by achieving some written assurance of the owners intention not to CE mark the boat you will provide yourself some protection in the event the boat subsequently becomes subject to the RCR.

 

It may be that the owner wishes to keep his/her options open or they may express the future intention to CE mark. However the owner may be presented with a dilemma because the end of the first year is upon them and the boat is not completed and so cannot be CE marked or an Annex 15 declaration made.

 

In these circumstances you are guided to issue a BSSC if a completed system(s) are present that can be examined and these are found to be compliant. In these circumstances you must achieve written assurance from the owner that:

 

1) the BSSC is required in support of a licence application,

2) that the boat is not complete, and;

3) that there is no immediate intention to place the boat on the market.

 

Your Status Reports, Appliance Record and your notes taken at the time will support how you found the boat at the time the BSSC was issued.

 

If the boat cannot be examined because for example no systems are completed or the assurance requested is refused then you should advise your client that you are unable to issue a BSSC and that they should contact their navigation authority licensing department for advice.

 

We also support the above with advice to the examiner to consider what other evidence there may be which is apparent to him or her at the time of contract or examination, that could be presented by prosecution in court that would suggest the boat was being prepared for sale with the time limits and without being CE marked. As stated before, this is to protect the examiner from prosecution. In the past, a trading standards office has been in contact with our office concerning the issue of a certificate to a non-CE marked boat - no legal action was taken by TS in that case.

 

If anyone has difficulties contracting an examiner to carry out an examination on a boat, they should get in touch with our office to discuss.

 

There's further information on self-builds and on the RCD on our website with links to the source data on the Dti website.

 

Rob