stove surround construction

[cobra]

Looking at constructing the hearth and surround to my stove. Masterboard seems to be frequentley mentioned material but took a trip to wickes today and was recommended ' Thermal Aquapanel'. Topps tiles suggested ' Tile backerboard' anyone used either of these?

 

 

 

Also would like to take a look at the relevant BS. What number is it?

 

Thanks for any help on this subject

[rjasmith]

Looking at constructing the hearth and surround to my stove. Masterboard seems to be frequentley mentioned material but took a trip to wickes today and was recommended ' Thermal Aquapanel'. Topps tiles suggested ' Tile backerboard' anyone used either of these?

 

 

 

Also would like to take a look at the relevant BS. What number is it?

 

Thanks for any help on this subject

 

Oh well - here I go again! I've probably got the anorak label for the subject of BS 8511.

 

I assume by "relevant BS" you meant the British Standard Code of Practice for Installation of Solid Fuel Stoves on Boats?

 

Also, presumably, you have some sort of access to BS to read it without having to buy it?!

 

BS 8511 doesn't recommend any trade names for non combustible insulating board but it does quote various typical thermal conductivity values. You would then have to ask eg B & Q or Wickes staff what the figures are for Masterboard or Aquapanel. I suspect they won't have a clue!!

 

The type of board used makes a big difference to the clearances specified in BS 8511.

 

I'm going to use something called Super Isol which is a calcium silicate board and has the lowest conductivity listed in the CoP. It is a bit difficult to get however and the only supplier I've found is John Opies in Essex. They also do a good compressed vermiculite board which is better than Super Isol to make a hearth base out of because it has much greater load bearing capability than Super Isol.

 

All this only works if your stove has been built and tested to another BS (13240) as you will see when you read 8511!

 

Having said all this, don't forget that neither the RCD nor the Boat Safety Scheme require you to work in accordance with 8511 - but who knows when that could change!

 

Richard

[cobra]

Thanks for that Richard, sounds like you have answered this query before! Will take at look at John opies.

 

Thats really interesting that neither the RCD or BSS require you to work in accordance with 8511. I take it this is because it's a code of practice rather than a regulation? I assumed it was a requirement. As for reading it- going to contact local library, think I read on here that is possible (??)

 

Think I may contact the guy who surveyed the boat ( who is also a BSS exaniner ) and ask his advice as no doubt I will be using him when I need a new BSS. I'm new to all this, but as you say things could change

 

Andy

[Biggles]

My brother is a stone mason and has made many of these for boats from sheet stone. Thats what I'm going to have.

 

Biggles

[rjasmith]

Thanks for that Richard, sounds like you have answered this query before! Will take at look at John opies.

 

Thats really interesting that neither the RCD or BSS require you to work in accordance with 8511. I take it this is because it's a code of practice rather than a regulation? I assumed it was a requirement. As for reading it- going to contact local library, think I read on here that is possible (??)

 

Think I may contact the guy who surveyed the boat ( who is also a BSS exaniner ) and ask his advice as no doubt I will be using him when I need a new BSS. I'm new to all this, but as you say things could change

 

Andy

 

 

The drafting of BS 8511 came about as a result of an MAIB recommendation following a fatal boat fire on a Narrowboat (search for "Lindy Lou" on the MAIB site if you want to see their report - rather a harrowing read). Therefore this was a UK only initiative and was not prompted by the Boat Safety Scheme. BS have told me they know of no plans for the 8511 requirements to be fed into amendments to the ISO standards that support the RCD. However the RCD ISOs do occasionally get modified and I believe work on ISO 9094 (the fire safety one) is going on just now.

 

Sounds like you're adding a stove to an existing boat so the RCD is not relevant for you though.

 

BSS (not to be confused with BS of course!) have said that they will come out with some sort of view about BS 8511 at some point but I don't believe that has happened yet and if you read the BSS Guide you'll see that its current SF stove requirements are pretty straightforward.

 

Depending where you live you may find your County Library allows online access to BS Online (BSOL) via the library's website although local authority budget cuts seem to be making this excellent service disappear! I can still get it via Hampshire but Surrey and Sussex have recently shut theirs down. Otherwise you should be able to log on to BSOL by physically going in to your library and using one of their PCs. This is usually still available in all libraries.

 

Richard

[Québec]

We've used Vermiculite Fireboard for our hearth base and sides.

Not the Super Isol Richard mentioned but similar though not as high quality I suspect...and available from several suppliers.

The price differences are extraordinary for what appears to be the same thing. Buyer beware!

 

Just an example...and what seems like a good price:

http://shop.vitcas.com/vermiculite-fire-board---fire-proof-insulation-72-p.asp

[deletedaccount]

Canal shop man on here supplied me with fireboard cut to size and posted. Highly recommended. See one of my old threads on hearth construction.

[cobra]

Just read the story of 'Lindy Lou' very sad, my sympathies to everyone involved. Reinforces the importance of getting this right.

 

Richard had a search of Backerboard and its fire rated as A1 and the Aquapanal as 0. Does this Give any indication of their suitablity for use as stove surround material? Thanks very much for info on libraries, will be checking mine tomorrow.

 

 

Also this may be a really stupid question but why are Bitish Standards so expensive???!!

 

Andy

 

Ps.Vermiculite Fireboard looks good (not sure about good price!)But before anyone else says it 'could be worth every penny'

[Québec]

[snip] Ps.Vermiculite Fireboard looks good (not sure about good price!)But before anyone else says it 'could be worth every penny'

 

You're right...it's all relative. Compared to £105 being quoted for the same stuff, same size, it's a 'good' price.

As it happens we got ours very cheaply from a local woodburning stove specialist. I saw some stacked against a wall, asked how much for one, he said 'give us a tenner'. So I gave him £20 and took two. Seemed like a good deal at the time.

Edited January 12, 2011 by Québec

[cobra]

Should have got all he had and flogged them on here! Thanks for that, I have a similar place close to me. Will pay them a visit and see if I can get a good deal.

 

 

been looking through old threads on here and get the impression there are a lot of people confused like me over building a hearth / surround. would be great if someone who has done this and has a good knowledge of the relevant regs / standards could give some of the basic requirements

[Chalky]

 

been looking through old threads on here and get the impression there are a lot of people confused like me over building a hearth / surround. would be great if someone who has done this and has a good knowledge of the relevant regs / standards could give some of the basic requirements

And then get it put into the FAQs

[deletedaccount]

These guys did it for me. Really cheap and cut to order. Give em a ring as I'm not sure it's on their website.

 

http://www.canalshoponline.co.uk/

Edited January 13, 2011 by deletedaccount

[rjasmith]

Yes it would be great if we could have an FAQ thread on stoves but I wonder how easy that would be to do.

 

I think I've got quite a good knowledge of what's in BS 8511 as I've watched it get produced over the last 2 years, briefly discussed it with one or two stove firms (Morso and Arada), put extensive comments in to BS on it at the draft stage and finally, made an early start on my own stove installation in a new boat.

 

So as yet I haven't actually completed any boat stove installation yet nor gained any extensive operating experience of one. (I have however done one in our house complete with gravity circulating open vented back boiler which works well. Unfortunately houses and boats are rather different, something which the early draft version of BS 8511 didn't seem to recognise!!).

 

As for a precis of what the "relevant regs/standards" are - remember there still aren't any really! BS 8511 is a Code of Practice so it is really just a guide of good ways to do things. As a result, it gives quite a few alternative examples for hearths, surrounds, flues, roof collars etc and is therefore quite a long document (44 pages).

 

My opinion is that if you're doing a new boat (as I am) it might well be a good idea to read BS 8511 (or get a professional to advise you on it) and come to a clear conclusion as to how you might comply with the gist of it. There are bits of it that I still don't like and will be slightly varying in my own installation following some tests I've done to prove to myself that the method will be safe. Having said that, the published version of 8511 is quite a readable document (well it is to me - some may not agree!).

 

If you look at the current BSS Guide you'll see that their requirements for a safe stove installation are nothing like as complex as BS 8511. For an existing boat, the BSS guide (+ what your actual inspector thinks, I suppose) ARE the requirements. For those doing a new boat to the RCD, ISO 9094, the RCD standard on Fire Protection IS the main requirement and that doesn't even mention the words "solid fuel"!!

 

One of these days the BSS team are supposed to be coming out with some sort of "view" on their interpretation of 8511 but I haven't seen anything yet.

 

Oh yes - why are BS docs so expensive? Great isn't it! Just be thankful you aren't trying to work to the RCD and its ISO standards - there are about 30 of them! Thats why it's so useful to be able to join a library with online access to BSOL. Then you can sit at home reading them all night if need be and for nothing provided you've paid your Council tax!

 

Richard

[Québec]

[snip] it might well be a good idea to read BS 8511 (or get a professional to advise you on it) and come to a clear conclusion as to how you might comply with the gist of it.

Richard

 

Maybe I'm missing something here, but we seem to go round and round the narrowboats on this one.

So let me get this right....there are these BS standards - which are only 'advisory' - which have been produced in response to a tragic accident. The idea behind these guidelines is, presumably, to minimise the risk of people dying as a result of something similar.

 

But, if you are installing a stove and/or hearth, you can only get this important potentially life-saving information by paying an enormous amount of money (or going through your local library if it has access to BSOnline)

 

Those people who have read or know about these mysterious guidelines seem peculiarly reticent to give any hint as to what is in them other than say: go and read them yourself. Do the British Standards operate like the Spanish Inquisition? (bet they had something like BS666 CODE OF PRACTICE FOR THE INSTALLATION OF SOLID FUEL TORTURE AND IMMOLATION APPLIANCES IN HERETIC COMMUNITIES)

 

A Q&A in Waterways World a while back gave 'the gist of it':

The key element to consider when fitting a stove is the surrounding surfaces. Not only must these be fire retardant such as ceramic tiles etc, but they should be fitted onto fire retardant board (eg cement based). The standard also recommends a small air gap between this board and any combustable material (eg plywood), the gap should be designed with gaps top and bottom so that there is an air flow. Care should be taken in the design of the flue pipe so that the risk of touching it inadvertantly is miminised, and it is well away from any combustible material.

 

So that's what we did.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Québec

[cobra]

All very interesting! Viewed BS8511 today and as you reminded me Richard it is not a regulation, but rather a guide to a good way to do things. Will follow what I feel is sensible, which really boils down to the Points covered in Waterways Q&A as mentioned above.

 

Agree with you Quebec, The whole idea behind all this is to prevent another tragic accident. Surely the BSS should incorporate the standard into their guide.

 

Andy

 

Ps. Quebec - I will now be looking up BS 666

 

pps.Thanks deletedaccount will ring them

Edited January 13, 2011 by cobra